Two-Foul 9 Ball

[Old Nine Baller]

Some played that any good hit erased any/all fouls. Some played that the original "pusher" was still on a foul if his opponent played a safety by hitting the object ball and not fouling. I clearly wrote that in the very 1st post in this thread.

ONB

I have to respectfully disagree, no one that I've ever seen played where the guy was still on "1 foul" after a legal hit was made....that would be ruin the game that we're talking about is so great.

You not having seen it does mean it did not occur. No point disagreeing with a fact.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

sounds like there are too many rules, and its complicated, why would anyone want to play this way is beyond me, that may be part of our problem these days no standardized rules of play

In any game where guys are playing for money most of the smarter ones like to play by rules that protect their money. Two-foul does this.

When one-foul started there were also different rules. Some played a scratch on the break was BIH behind the line. Some played you could push-out the 1st shot after the break. Why would anyone do that if they didn't like push-out? There were other rules I don't recall now.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Of course we know the difference....you have to wipe out the foul or the other player could shoot every roll out and hook you so you'd have to "kick" at the shot....this would be a ridiculous way to play....or they could make the shot and run two balls and "hook" you like "One Foul".......this is NOT the way 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is played by anyone that I've ever seen and I've been around it as much as most players except maybe Buddy, Lassiter and that generation because that's all they played back in the 60s and 70s (before my time).

"Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" but the fouls are still cleared on a legal hit.....so there is two ways to play, but BOTH of them clear fouls after a legal hit. So if a player rolls out and you shoot it and foul the other player gets ball-in-hand anywhere on the table.

Erroneous blanket statements like the one highlighted above are part of the reason I started this thread. You most certainly can push-out again if your opponent fouls playing any-two, you simply give up BIH when you do it though.

I am trying not to confuse anyone here by making statements like these. When it's your inning at the table you can do anything you want. There were many instances where giving up BIH was preferable to breaking up a cluster to attempt a "good hit" after a push.

ONB

 

[Old Nine Baller]

To all, I will again write the 3 ways to play two-foul for you clarification.

1. Any-Two: This means whoever did not commit the 2nd foul is awarded BIH. You can push-out anytime you want, hooked or not.

2. Two By The Same Player: BIH is only awarded when the same player fouls two consecutive times. One version of this resets fouls to zero if either player makes a good hit on the object ball.

3. Two By The Same Player: BIH is only awarded when the same player fouls two consecutive times. The second version of this game keeps the 1st fouling player on a foul even if the incoming player makes a good hit on the object ball.

Games #2 & #3 were the least seen in my experience but they were played, mostly by weak players.

Game #1 was the most-played in my experience.

In all of these games you had choices of playing "all balls stay down on a foul", "everything spots up on a foul", "only the ball before the money spots up on a foul", and there are probably a few others I don't recall right now. The point is you had the flexibility to tailor the game to suit your strengths and protect your money.

ONB

 

[CJ Wiley]

keeping a player on "1 Foul" after a legal hit

You not having seen it does mean it did not occur. No point disagreeing with a fact.

ONB

Wow, you are sticking up for this being a legitimate rule? - keeping a player on "1 Foul" after a legal hit is made would change the complete strategy of the game.

This would mean if I rolled out and you played safe, and "hooked" me I couldn't roll out again and would have to shoot whatever shot you left me.....that's like "one foul" rules.

I have ask over a hundred players this question in the 80s "two fouls by the same person or any two fouls?" .......the difference was concerning the roll outs, it never changed the fact that if a player made ANY legal hit it cleared the fouls for both players.

 

[CJ Wiley]

you "can" give you opponent ball-in-hand anytime on any shot on any day of any week

Erroneous blanket statements like the one highlighted above are part of the reason I started this thread. You most certainly can push-out again if your opponent fouls playing any-two, you simply give up BIH when you do it though.

I am trying not to confuse anyone here by making statements like these. When it's your inning at the table you can do anything you want. There were many instances where giving up BIH was preferable to breaking up a cluster to attempt a "good hit" after a push.

ONB

So I should have clarified "you can't re roll out without giving your opponent ball-in-hand"???......some things do "go without saying".....you "can" give you opponent ball-in-hand anytime on any shot on any day of any week.....even on "leap years". :groucho:

 

[Black-Balled]

Wow,

This would mean if I rolled out and you played safe, and "hooked" me I couldn't roll out again and would have to shoot whatever shot you left me.....that's like "one foul" rules.

I have ask over a hundred players this question in the 80s "two fouls by the same person or any two fouls?" .......the difference was concerning the roll outs, it never changed the fact that if a player made ANY legal hit it cleared the fouls for both players.

Of course the game changes to 1foul rules, once a given player has fouled once.
Perhaps the following will explain it better than words:
2-1=1

I can recall all variants of the game and as was stated earlier, the details of the gameplay did cause issues...like bar/ house rules might, but to an admittedly lesser degree.

It would be a shame to eliminate the skill of a well-executed kick shot from the game, just to prevent the lucky leave after a miss.

 

[CJ Wiley]

It would be a shame to eliminate the skill of a well-executed kick shot

Of course the game changes to 1foul rules, once a given player has fouled once.
Perhaps the following will explain it better than words:
2-1=1

I can recall all variants of the game and as was stated earlier, the details of the gameplay did cause issues...like bar/ house rules might, but to an admittedly lesser degree.

It would be a shame to eliminate the skill of a well-executed kick shot from the game, just to prevent the lucky leave after a miss.

"Kix are for Kids" ....the Game is dying for Goodness sake.

 

[stevelomako]

In each game the fouls are reset on a legal hit. I've played both ways hundreds of times and I preferred "any two fouls" because the player could not "re roll out".....but once a legal hit was made the current fouls were erased and both players had no fouls against them.

This meant you could NOT run a few balls and lock up the opponent because he was NOT on "1 Foul"....if this weren't the case I would shoot at every roll out and play safe and the game would be silly because the other player would be "kicking".....there was no "kicking" in 'Two Shot Shoot Out' unless someone actually rolled out to a "kick shot" which was very, very, rarely.

My understanding was Mike Sigel got his nickname playing "One Foul" because he played so tight and would play shape to "hook" the opponent. I guess someone could ask him, I don't have his number, but he's actively marketing his new pool league.

Well we both think "any two" is a better game so that's cool.


BUT:
Running around you had to play how the "customer" wanted to play, whatever way they wanted to play was how I played them...and there were as many different rules as there are playing "straight eight" in a bar.

I let them play the way they wanted...keep your customers happy while you're going into their pocket. :wink:


Mikes' nickname came far far before one-foul started being played everywhere. Hell, he could have got it from loving fishing as much as he does, or maybe he was an actor in "Peter Pan". I don't know.




What the hell is this "Boner Ball" everyone is talking about?

 

[CJ Wiley]

I like SHOOT OUT played either way a hundred times better than "One Foul"

Well we both think "any two" is a better game so that's cool.


BUT:
Running around you had to play how the "customer" wanted to play, whatever way they wanted to play was how I played them...and there were as many different rules as there are playing "straight eight" in a bar.

I let them play the way they wanted...keep your customers happy while you're going into their pocket. :wink:


Mikes' nickname came far far before one-foul started being played everywhere. Hell, he could have got it from loving fishing as much as he does, or maybe he was an actor in "Peter Pan". I don't know.




What the hell is this "Boner Ball" everyone is talking about?

Touche'....

I always steered my opponents to play "any two fouls" and would make up some excuse that I had to play that way......even though "two fouls by the same person" was fine, I just didn't want them re rolling out if I could help it.

I like SHOOT OUT played either way a hundred times better than "One Foul" and I've had reasonable success in that game over the years. It's just so much more luck and takes away from my greatest strengths....however, like they say "When in Rome, do as the Romans".

Like someone said yesterday, once you start playing "Two Shot" you will never want to gamble playing "one-foul-ball-in-hand" again.....it's simply that much better and more fun. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Of course we know the difference....you have to wipe out the foul or the other player could shoot every roll out and hook you so you'd have to "kick" at the shot....this would be a ridiculous way to play....or they could make the shot and run two balls and "hook" you like "One Foul".......this is NOT the way 'Two Shot Shoot Out' is played by anyone that I've ever seen and I've been around it as much as most players except maybe Buddy, Lassiter and that generation because that's all they played back in the 60s and 70s (before my time).

"Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" but the fouls are still cleared on a legal hit.....so there is two ways to play, but BOTH of them clear fouls after a legal hit. So if a player rolls out and you shoot it and foul the other player gets ball-in-hand anywhere on the table.

Erroneous blanket statements like the one highlighted above are part of the reason I started this thread. You most certainly can push-out again if your opponent fouls playing any-two, you simply give up BIH when you do it though.

I am trying not to confuse anyone here by making statements like these. When it's your inning at the table you can do anything you want. There were many instances where giving up BIH was preferable to breaking up a cluster to attempt a "good hit" after a push.

ONB

So I should have clarified "you can't re roll out without giving your opponent ball-in-hand"???......some things do "go without saying".....you "can" give you opponent ball-in-hand anytime on any shot on any day of any week.....even on "leap years". :groucho:

C.J.,

Many people here take what you write literally and without question. When you call attention to "Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" by emboldening it many people stop reading at that point and figure "Well, if C.J. says you can't re roll out after a push out then that must be the rule".

Many don't finish reading what you wrote, so yes, you should be clear and precise.

By the way, there are at least 3 ways to play two-foul 9 Ball. I never said "two by the same player" was an intelligent way to play, in fact I've said the opposite. Only weak players played that way. "Any-Two" was the game of choice for good players.

ONB

 

[Mikjary]

Any tournament or gambling session I played in was any two fouls. Re-rolling out was "frowned upon", as in, "WTF are you doing?" :grin-square: You either took the shot or passed it back. No need to worry about who's on one foul or not. Shoot or pass.

Any two fouls was understood as the preferred game whether you were playing a local at the gin mill or a top player at the pool hall. Anything else was usually a move and a reason to kill the action. There were the usual questions like spotting balls and if you had to hit a different rail on frozen balls, but the game wasn't as hard to figure out as this thread has made it. You shoot or pass it back. Now, the moves on the roll outs...they were legendary!

Best,
Mike

 

[Old Nine Baller]

Any tournament or gambling session I played in was any two fouls. Re-rolling out was "frowned upon", as in, "WTF are you doing?" :grin-square: You either took the shot or passed it back. No need to worry about who's on one foul or not. Shoot or pass.

Any two fouls was understood as the preferred game whether you were playing a local at the gin mill or a top player at the pool hall. Anything else was usually a move and a reason to kill the action. There were the usual questions like spotting balls and if you had to hit a different rail on frozen balls, but the game wasn't as hard to figure out as this thread has made it. You shoot or pass it back. Now, the moves on the roll outs...they were legendary!

Best,
Mike

You say in your 1st two sentences "Any tournament or gambling session I played in was any two fouls. Re-rolling out was "frowned upon", as in, "WTF are you doing?".

If you re-rolled out after a push you would give up BIH. Why would a guy giving up BIH be "frowned upon"? Am I missing something?

ONB

 

[dabarbr]

You say in your 1st two sentences "Any tournament or gambling session I played in was any two fouls. Re-rolling out was "frowned upon", as in, "WTF are you doing?".

If you re-rolled out after a push you would give up BIH. Why would a guy giving up BIH be "frowned upon"? Am I missing something?

ONB

Yep, in any two fouls BIH, one could not re-push after a push-out. If you pushed out after my push-out, instead of me frowning, I would gladly just take the ball in hand.

 

[Mikjary]

You say in your 1st two sentences "Any tournament or gambling session I played in was any two fouls. Re-rolling out was "frowned upon", as in, "WTF are you doing?".

If you re-rolled out after a push you would give up BIH. Why would a guy giving up BIH be "frowned upon"? Am I missing something?

ONB

Yep, in any two fouls BIH, one could not re-push after a push-out. If you pushed out after my push-out, instead of me frowning, I would gladly just take the ball in hand.

I meant re-pushing was a gimmick game, a different game that was more about cat and mouse than 9 ball. When you offered to play someone where you could re-push, my answer was definitely NO. I figured you for a lock artist that was trying to trap me by moving on me.

Re-pushing on any two fouls and giving BIH=bad strategy. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

 

[scratchs]

dang me..dang me..

I was born one morning when the sun didn't shine..lol

you got to push it..!

 

[CJ Wiley]

conservative players can't stand up (under the "heat") playing the game anyway

I meant re-pushing was a gimmick game, a different game that was more about cat and mouse than 9 ball. When you offered to play someone where you could re-push, my answer was definitely NO. I figured you for a lock artist that was trying to trap me by moving on me.

Re-pushing on any two fouls and giving BIH=bad strategy. View attachment 303589 View attachment 303590 :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

Yes, the ones that generally wanted to play where you could "re roll out" were "lock up artists" or sometimes aka "nits"

We can tell a lot about the other player by what rules they wanted to play. I always tried to urge them to play "Any Two Fouls" and when they argued I knew they were either "one pocket specialists" or "straight pool wizards"....the funny thing was we'd still play "their game" and beat them - conservative players can't stand up (under the "heat") playing Shoot Out, it requires FirePower. "Our Game was their Teacher'

 

[Old Nine Baller]

A legal hit reset all fouls to zero for each shooter.

Best,
Mike

Any tournament or gambling session I played in was any two fouls. Re-rolling out was "frowned upon", as in, "WTF are you doing?" :grin-square: You either took the shot or passed it back. No need to worry about who's on one foul or not. Shoot or pass.

Any two fouls was understood as the preferred game whether you were playing a local at the gin mill or a top player at the pool hall. Anything else was usually a move and a reason to kill the action. There were the usual questions like spotting balls and if you had to hit a different rail on frozen balls, but the game wasn't as hard to figure out as this thread has made it. You shoot or pass it back. Now, the moves on the roll outs...they were legendary!

Best,
Mike

I meant re-pushing was a gimmick game, a different game that was more about cat and mouse than 9 ball. When you offered to play someone where you could re-push, my answer was definitely NO. I figured you for a lock artist that was trying to trap me by moving on me.

Re-pushing on any two fouls and giving BIH=bad strategy. View attachment 303589 View attachment 303590 :grin-square:

Best,
Mike

You have made 3 posts in this thread. The 1st one was unintelligible/nonsensical in the absence of naming what type game you referenced. Yet nobody questioned it.

Your 2nd post was apparently not what you meant as you wrote in your 3rd post.

I have a question for you: Do you think this thread and these 3 types of games would be easier to figure out if respondents actually wrote what they meant? You have been a member for 4 years and have over 2100 posts so I would think it incumbent upon you to state your meaning in your posts. Agreed?

ONB

 

[CJ Wiley]

The only way I could beat him is to roll out to jump shots.

C.J.,

Many people here take what you write literally and without question. When you call attention to "Any Two Fouls" means you can't "Re Roll Out" by emboldening it many people stop reading at that point and figure "Well, if C.J. says you can't re roll out after a push out then that must be the rule".

Many don't finish reading what you wrote, so yes, you should be clear and precise.

By the way, there are at least 3 ways to play two-foul 9 Ball. I never said "two by the same player" was an intelligent way to play, in fact I've said the opposite. Only weak players played that way. "Any-Two" was the game of choice for good players.

ONB

When getting a handicap is was better for the player to be able to "re roll out" because they could redirect your roll out to one that had one of their "money balls" in the path.

I played the 2nd best "One Handed" player in the world and gave him the 5/7 and the break on a bar table. He insisted on playing "two fouls by the same person" and I obliged him.

The only way I could beat him is to roll out to jump shots.....as soon as he saw I could make the shots he HAD to re roll out. I had anticipated this and what he didn't "real eyes" is it's a huge disadvantage to roll out against me on a bar table.

I beat him out of $3000. that night, but dodged him the next night to play again. He played another champion bar table player and beat him out of $12,000....he didn't know the strategy I'd used against the one handed player and "went off" trying to give him that huge spot.

The fact was I had no chance giving him that game and I knew it, of course no one in the world could give him that much of a "spot".....sometimes you have to accept you out ran the "Nutz" and get out of town. 'The Game is the Teacher'

 

[Mikjary]

Yes, the ones that generally wanted to play where you could "re roll out" were "lock up artists" or sometimes aka "nits"

We can tell a lot about the other player by what rules they wanted to play. I always tried to urge them to play "Any Two Fouls" and when they argued I knew they were either "one pocket specialists" or "straight pool wizards"....the funny thing was we'd still play "their game" and beat them - conservative players can't stand up (under the "heat") playing Shoot Out, it requires FirePower. "Our Game was their Teacher'

Many players that wouldn't match up playing 9 ball would bite on last pocket 8 ball or some one pocket. If you could give them the 7 ball, they would still try you at straights, too. They figured a 9 ball player didn't have the patience to be any good at these games. :grin-square:

Best,
Mike