Uh oh. Berhman/ABP

[Nostroke]

Sounds like Barry is planning to air barrel the players again!

I'm not talking about funding losses, I'm just talking about being substantial enough to cover cash flow timing.

Yeah that is shocking that he has run this tournament so long and never got to the point where he could sock away the 50k to loan it to himself for 30 days especially since it has been an issue for so long. In business you gotta find a way to make things happen correctly if you want to ensure your continuing success.

 

[jalapus logan]

Yeah that is shocking that he has run this tournament so long and never got to the point where he could sock away the 50k to loan it to himself for 30 days.

That is unfortunate. Pool must be promoted to expand the pie available to all participants. Until then, the pie is half baked...

 

[jason]

Sounds like Barry is planning to air barrel the players again!

It is a shame that a tournament representing itself as the "US Open" does not have a promoter with deep enough pockets to properly execute. I'm not talking about funding losses, I'm just talking about being substantial enough to cover cash flow timing.

This was the point of Matchroom's rebuttal to Barry's misrepresentation of how they paid their winners.

Is Barry robbing Peter to pay Paul?

 

[joelpope]

Yeah that is shocking that he has run this tournament so long and never got to the point where he could sock away the 50k to loan it to himself for 30 days especially since it has been an issue for so long. In business you gotta find a way to make things happen correctly if you want to ensure your continuing success.

Exactly. All legit businesses do this... It is called "working capital"

 

[Scott Lee]

AtLarge...That I can't answer, as I must have missed it. The Expo ends today, so if they met I would guess Barry will make some kind of announcement. I certainly guess that would qualify as a pow wow...which would mean I owe justnum an apology.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott -- The BCA Expo has been going on this week. Did I read or hear somewhere that Barry was meeting with Shawn Putnam at the Expo? He wouldn't have met with Johnny Archer, who is currently in Asia for a tournament.

 

[Scott Lee]

Rich...Probably 80-90% of the 'hardcore' players I'm talking about are not part of any sanctioned league system. They play in their local bar league...the same way they have for years. This includes people in cities like Chicago, and more importantly, tiny little communities in every state all over the country. How to reach those folks is the conundrum. Heck, if we just got a one-time $1 donation from each of the 400,000 sanctioned league players my idea would still work. The problem with that, as was already mentioned, is that the leagues work against each other, instead of working together for a common goal.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Scott, I hate to be argumentative and I'm usually not, but I've always been skeptical of stats like these.

Assuming 300 million people in the USA (counting chilluns too), that means that one out of every 75 people are hardcore players, playing weekly or daily. I gotta think that's wrong - way way wrong. The Chicago metro area probably has about 7.5 million people (that's light, but keep the math easy), so according to this formula Chicago and burbs should have about 100,000 hardcore players. I have to think that's wrong by at least a factor of 10 and that's being generous.

If Chicago had 100,000 hardcore players there would be a lot more pool rooms here than there are. For example, I have to travel 30 miles to get to a room where serious pool is played daily. And lest you think all this hardcore playing takes place in bars, the entire APA has 265,000 members nationwide. I don't know about other leagues but together they're probably smaller than the APA. And, anyway, I hesitate to consider a bar league player who plays two or three games of 8 ball per week as hardcore, i.e., somebody who might consider PPV'ing professional tournaments or who knows who Shane van Boening is.

 

[Blackjack]

Yes, Barry pays a WPA sanctioning fee that is not taken out of the prize fund.

Mike

... and to quote Kevin Trudeau, "What becomes of these sanctioning fees?"...

Maybe someone here can answer these questions publicly -

Is there a breakdown of where this sanctioning money goes?

Do the players have access to see the breakdown of the sanctioning money?

Would there be a sanctioning fee or a breakdown without the players or without the tournament?

Are the players represented in the WPA, and do they have the power to vote on WPA policies?

Do the players have anyone that represents them arbitrarily or is there someone whom they have elected to represent them on the WPA Board of Directors?

If this event is sanctioned by the WPA - why have they not taken action when the players have had pay issues with this promoter?

Why are the players left on their own to fix this when this is a WPA sanctioned event?

Besides ranking points and "sanctioning", is there any other tangible return for the players as a result of these fees?

I know that's a lot of questions, but I am pretty sure that the answer to this problem is in there somewhere.

 

[justadub]

... and to quote Kevin Trudeau, "What becomes of these sanctioning fees?"...

Maybe someone here can answer these questions publicly -

Is there a breakdown of where this sanctioning money goes?

Do the players have access to see the breakdown of the sanctioning money?

Would there be a sanctioning fee or a breakdown without the players or without the tournament?

Are the players represented in the WPA, and do they have the power to vote on WPA policies?

Do the players have anyone that represents them arbitrarily or is there someone whom they have elected to represent them on the WPA Board of Directors?

If this event is sanctioned by the WPA - why have they not taken action when the players have had pay issues with this promoter?

Why are the players left on their own to fix this when this is a WPA sanctioned event?

Besides ranking points and "sanctioning", is there any other tangible return for the players as a result of these fees?

I know that's a lot of questions, but I am pretty sure that the answer to this problem is in there somewhere.

The answer to those questions is... "it must be Barry's fault!"

:tongue:

He ought to fix that, too.

 

[jalapus logan]

Maybe someone here can answer these questions publicly -

Is there a breakdown of where this sanctioning money goes?

I don't know where the $ goes, but I sure as hell know where it does NOT go. It sure as sh$t doesn't go to promoting the godd$mn sport of pocket billiards...:frown:

 

[Blackjack]

I don't know where the $ goes, but I sure as hell know where it does NOT go. It sure as sh$t doesn't go to promoting the godd$mn sport of pocket billiards...:frown:

Which is why the people that are leading the game need to be held accountable when situations like this arise.

The IPT should have been a wake-up call for the WPA, but sadly, little has changed since then.

 

[jalapus logan]

Which is why the people that are leading the game need to be held accountable when situations like this arise.

The IPT should have been a wake-up call for the WPA, but sadly, little has changed since then.

TAP TAP TAP. Accountability is the name of the game.

 

[Scott Lee]

Roadie...and you would be wrong. There are 400,000 SANCTIONED league players, and several times that number that only play in their small local leagues...but they are still 'league' players. They just don't play to go to Vegas, or any national event. You're also misunderstanding my use of the term "hardcore"...which is someone who plays weekly or daily. It may be just on their own table, or down at the bar. Lots of people here on AzB qualify as hardcore, yet they do not play tournaments, nor are they 'action' players. As far as your number (10,000), there were 8000 just at the BCAPL tournament, and there will be another 7,000 going to the APA national tournament. Those groups primarily do not overlap. Then you've got VNEA, TAP, and a few others. Some people may play multiple leagues, but I don't think it's statistically significant. Now if you're talking about gamblers, your number is probably pretty close.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

I would put the number of league players in the USA at no more than 400,000. Again considering the overlap I would put the number of hard-core tournament-action players, those being ones who would travel to enter an event at no more than 10,000 for the entire United States and that is being generous.

 

[Neil]

................

 

[lfigueroa]

Someone over there needs to read Sun Tzu.

Or at least Doyle Brunson

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Barry did state the following: "While I understand that I have been tardy with payments in the past it must be abundantly clear to everyone that things will be different from now on."

ah... ya, but didn't he promise that all the dough would be on display last year?

My point being of course that promises can be broken and are not the same as cash on the table.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Scott, I hate to be argumentative and I'm usually not, but I've always been skeptical of stats like these.

Assuming 300 million people in the USA (counting chilluns too), that means that one out of every 75 people are hardcore players, playing weekly or daily. I gotta think that's wrong - way way wrong. The Chicago metro area probably has about 7.5 million people (that's light, but keep the math easy), so according to this formula Chicago and burbs should have about 100,000 hardcore players. I have to think that's wrong by at least a factor of 10 and that's being generous.

If Chicago had 100,000 hardcore players there would be a lot more pool rooms here than there are. For example, I have to travel 30 miles to get to a room where serious pool is played daily. And lest you think all this hardcore playing takes place in bars, the entire APA has 265,000 members nationwide. I don't know about other leagues but together they're probably smaller than the APA. And, anyway, I hesitate to consider a bar league player who plays two or three games of 8 ball per week as hardcore, i.e., somebody who might consider PPV'ing professional tournaments or who knows who Shane van Boening is.

I think those stats about millions of players are BCA PR drivel that they put out every year to tell us all how great we're doing...

Lou Figueroa

 

[MikeM]

Sounds like Barry is planning to air barrel the players again!

It is a shame that a tournament representing itself as the "US Open" does not have a promoter with deep enough pockets to properly execute. I'm not talking about funding losses, I'm just talking about being substantial enough to cover cash flow timing.

This was the point of Matchroom's rebuttal to Barry's misrepresentation of how they paid their winners.

Yeah, its really a shame that Barry can't be like all those other promoters who have $180K laying around to guarantee their prize funds. Like the guy that runs.....the.....uh, ...well.....

Oh, wait, there aren't any promoters around like that. Do you really think it is possible in this industry to guarantee and escrow a prize fund of $180,000 prior to the event? Who has come close to doing that in America? Is there a corporate and more importantly a fan base to support that? Maybe I'm wrong, but show me a business plan to prove it.

The ABP doesn't produce a product that has much value. That's the simple truth here. There just isn't a big enough base to generate enough revenue to make professional pool viable.

So you have to rely on independent promoters taking a shot at making the players (and themselves) big paydays. Countless debacles show how well that model works.

If the ABP spent half as much energy in promoting and refining their product as they do in trying to manipulate Barry Behrman they would be moving the game in the right direction. What are the players doing to make themselves more marketable? Their stated goals are laudable - "pave the way for the future of the game and its up and coming stars" - great but what are you doing to make that happen? How is boycotting your premiere event on American soil going to help meet those goals?

IMO, I don't think their demands can be met. I believe Barry. He knows what is possible, financially, for the US Open to promise.

The successful events and tours these days are the ones that don't aim as high as Barry does with the Open. Keeping it simple - and prize money at a manageable level is how to succeed. Barry has always aimed high - too high, and misses the mark too often. The simplest way to meet a demand of guaranteed prize money in escrow is to lower the prize money. Would that satisfy the ABP? 100% of a reduced purse in escrow? Doubtful.

I've long been a Barry apologist and will continue to be because I truly believe that he has the best interest of the game and the players at heart. If you run Barry out of the game we all lose.

 

[Blackjack]

ah... ya, but didn't he promise that all the dough would be on display last year?

My point being of course that promises can be broken and are not the same as cash on the table.

Lou Figueroa

Promises can be broken because there are no consequences.

 

[justadub]

The concept of having every league player donate just $1 is a good one. The numbers probably would work, and there would probably be many players who would donate a bit more.

The problem is another chicken/egg situation. Who would be managing it? I would have no problem donating, and helping explain it around my league, but unless/until there is some sort of reputable organization set up to administer it, it is a moot point. We can debate how many actual league players there are till we're blue in the face, it doesn't matter, cuz there isn't anyone to collect the money anyhow.

Once again, this appears to be something only Mark Griffin would be in a position to even attempt. (And to have any chance of succeeding.) I'm betting he isn't thrilled with the prospect of tackling such an orginzation.

IF such an organization were ever created and had such a program started, the Pro Players would have to make it a point to work with the leagues far more than they do now, so far as appearances and clinics and such go. There has to be something in it for the leagues to tap into their membership, even if it is done "for the betterment of the game."

I'd love to see it happen. Not holding my breath.

 

[jalapus logan]

I continue to await a proactive, positive initiative from the ABP. They have shown that they can produce a negative action, this boycott. What will they do to promote themselves and the game?????????????????????