Under The Stack Break Shots

LTL

Registered
Does anyone have a preference for "Under The Stack" break balls?

They often seem to be available and offer great opportunities to open the pack and to keep your cue ball between the side pockets and the lower half of the table.

I've notice that Corey Deuel has a preference for these types of break shots and I hear Mike Sigel did too.

Your thoughts???
 

stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
Does anyone have a preference for "Under The Stack" break balls?

They often seem to be available and offer great opportunities to open the pack and to keep your cue ball between the side pockets and the lower half of the table.

I've notice that Corey Deuel has a preference for these types of break shots and I hear Mike Sigel did too.

Your thoughts???

Corey has a preference for any unconventional breakshot, he feels that te standard breakshots yeild more problems on the bottom rail. Corey actually mentions that during his 200+ run that was filmed at Marop's House.

I find that behind the rack breakballs push too many balls up table, and are harder to play for since there is less area to work with under the rack for a breakball.

although under the rack breakballs look prettier, especially when you take the 3 rail route after contact under the rack.

-Steve
 

alstl

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
There are different kinds of under the rack break balls. Ball just under the rack, beyond the middle of the rack, in front of the middle of the rack, ball on the rail.

If you can get back to the middle of the table it is a good break shot but sometimes with the ball on the rail if you don't catch the corner ball you end up stuck against the bottom of the rack with no shot. Other times you run into a corner ball before the cue ball gets back to the middle of the table and you end up with a difficult steep angle up table shot.

I use them when it is what I have available but I prefer the standard stuff.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Does anyone have a preference for "Under The Stack" break balls?

They often seem to be available and offer great opportunities to open the pack and to keep your cue ball between the side pockets and the lower half of the table.

I've notice that Corey Deuel has a preference for these types of break shots and I hear Mike Sigel did too.

Your thoughts???

This was definitely not Sigel's preference, but he could deal with the under the rack break shot when he had to.

Those who prefer under the rack to above the rack are few in number, and the reason is as simple as the fact that the cue ball control is typically greater on the standard break shots.

Mizerak used the under the rack break, too, but Steve's philosophy was that the lay of the balls often dictated which break ball was most accessible, and if that ball happened to be below the rack, he was OK with that. Far more players, in such a situation, bumped balls around until they created a break ball that's the one they like, with the under the pack ball a last resort.

Good players must be comfortable with under the pack break shots, though, and learning them is well advised, but if you're trying to suggest that under-the-pack is coming into vogue, I'd have to say I disagree.

I'll keep an eye on Deuel next time I get to watch him. I did not realize that he so greatly favored them.
 

LTL

Registered
This was definitely not Sigel's preference, but he could deal with the under the rack break shot when he had to.

Those who prefer under the rack to above the rack are few in number, and the reason is as simple as the fact that the cue ball control is typically greater on the standard break shots.

Mizerak used the under the rack break, too, but Steve's philosophy was that the lay of the balls often dictated which break ball was most accessible, and if that ball happened to be below the rack, he was OK with that. Far more players, in such a situation, bumped balls around until they created a break ball that's the one they like, with the under the pack ball a last resort.

Good players must be comfortable with under the pack break shots, though, and learning them is well advised, but if you're trying to suggest that under-the-pack is coming into vogue, I'd have to say I disagree.

I'll keep an eye on Deuel next time I get to watch him. I did not realize that he so greatly favored them.

The commentator on this match suggested that Deuel is fond of these break shots because Sigel was also. Don't know how true that is of Sigel, but Corey seems to definitely prefer these break shots. (See 22:00 min mark of this match) https://youtu.be/khCLEQX0uUc
 
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LTL

Registered
There are different kinds of under the rack break balls. Ball just under the rack, beyond the middle of the rack, in front of the middle of the rack, ball on the rail.

If you can get back to the middle of the table it is a good break shot but sometimes with the ball on the rail if you don't catch the corner ball you end up stuck against the bottom of the rack with no shot. Other times you run into a corner ball before the cue ball gets back to the middle of the table and you end up with a difficult steep angle up table shot.

I use them when it is what I have available but I prefer the standard stuff.

Excellent point. I should have specified that I was referring to shots that clip the corner ball of the stack.... and the shots that contact mid-stack that can be followed out 3 rails....
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Sometimes I play on a slow 8 foot table. Frequently I do not get a shot on this table with side of the rack breakshots, due to dead rails causing congestion and slow cloth preventing balls from breaking open. On that table I use either side pocket breakshots or mostly below the rack breakshots. Because on the side of the rack shots, the cueball frequently slides down and gets stuck on the rail or on a ball.

With the below the rack shots I nearly always get a shot, and balls are pushed into the open. On a normal 9 foot table I would of course prefer a traditional style breakshot, UNLESS something is causing the rack not to open, in which case I'd consider below the rack shots more.

There is an art to shooting below the rack breakshots, and I think a lot of people are not getting the maximum out of these shots, because they are using either wrong spin, speed or both. This cannot be taught on paper, but must be shown on the table.
These shots are easy to set up, and with practice very easy to shoot. They don't need to be super thin, nor do they need to be very hard, they do need some sidespin, so I guess some people might think they are hard for that reason? When you shoot them correctly, it is very rare not to get another shot, although you will not get a huge spread usually. When it comes to getting a shot after the break, I do feel that these shots are superior to most shots I can think of. Even perfect Mosconi breakshots sometimes go wrong, but the below the rack shots very rarely do. If I'm not feeling good about my game one day, I'd much rather shoot one of these than a paper thin side of the rack shot, that is just considering the pocketing aspect, all other considerations aside.

All this is only in the opinion of a mediocre player.
 

rikdee

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Behind the rack break balls can often be quite easy to get onto and perhaps a good reason to play into one. If a candidate is nominated early in the sequence, there are always balls near a corner pocket or low on the long rails that frequently present clear and easy patterns for accurate final CB positioning. Most play low break balls as a position of last resort, yet looking early and planning your sequence with one in mind can result in a good break shot. Now, whether low break balls are effective, versus traditional side of the rack placement, is merely opinion. But, there is something to be said for easy execution of the break ball end play.
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
Does anyone have a preference for "Under The Stack" break balls?

They often seem to be available and offer great opportunities to open the pack and to keep your cue ball between the side pockets and the lower half of the table.

I've notice that Corey Deuel has a preference for these types of break shots and I hear Mike Sigel did too.

Your thoughts???

I have a preference for them on smaller tables, as more balls are moved to where there is more space (and there's bound to be less congestion between rack and foot rail as a result). They may also be easier to fall on if one can afford to leave an end pattern (most of the time, balls in that area need to be removed to make way for other balls to go into the corner pockets or free positional paths to and from such balls). Having said that, I do not have a principled preference for behind the rack break balls unless they're ideally positioned (= to one side or the other, with the tangent line preferably not aiming full at the middle ball) and there's a key ball and key to the key.

I do not remember Sigel to have a principled preference for them, by the way. The only player I ever saw go out of his way to produce and get to below the rack break shots was Allen Hopkins, and that may have had more to do with his limitations/stroke comfort zone than principle.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question about a comment made in the video posted above with Deuel. After Corey breaks, the commentator says if he had used inside instead of outside, he might have gotten a better spread of balls. I've heard this before but never believed that the spin on the cue ball mattered when it hits the pack. Is there something else going on here I'm missing?
 

Poolmanis

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question about a comment made in the video posted above with Deuel. After Corey breaks, the commentator says if he had used inside instead of outside, he might have gotten a better spread of balls. I've heard this before but never believed that the spin on the cue ball mattered when it hits the pack. Is there something else going on here I'm missing?

No. Commentator is trying too much.
Cory did what was right.
In generally if one shoot behind the rack with inside and cueball 3 rails to middle of table. They have to shoot it hard(er). So racks open more. Commentator clearly did not see it good enough to realize there was not really place for 3 railer with inside.
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
No. Commentator is trying too much.
Cory did what was right.
In generally if one shoot behind the rack with inside and cueball 3 rails to middle of table. They have to shoot it hard(er). So racks open more. Commentator clearly did not see it good enough to realize there was not really place for 3 railer with inside.

I'm not sure that's it, though. I've heard other people comment that a certain spin will cause the rack to open better.
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
I have a question about a comment made in the video posted above with Deuel. After Corey breaks, the commentator says if he had used inside instead of outside, he might have gotten a better spread of balls. I've heard this before but never believed that the spin on the cue ball mattered when it hits the pack. Is there something else going on here I'm missing?

The English one applies fractionally changes the fullness of the hit and thus the angle at which the cue ball deflects off an object ball, and that in turn may make a slight difference in how a player perceives the break angle and spread he or she gets, but the reality is that there would be other ways to achieve the same result, be that as it may, there are multiple objectives shooting a break shot, of which spread may seem important, but isn't the most important, except all else being equal (which upon closer inspection is never the case). The spread of the balls may also be influenced by whether or not the cue ball leaves the table bed/cloth for a split-second, which again changes the angle of deflection, speed of the cue ball etc., and which again may be compensated with e.g. side spin etc. There is no general rule that one type of English will do the trick, again, all else being equal.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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stevekur1

The "COMMISH"
Silver Member
The English one applies fractionally changes the fullness of the hit and thus the angle at which the cue ball deflects off an object ball, and that in turn may make a slight difference in how a player perceives the break angle and spread he or she gets, but the reality is that there would be other ways to achieve the same result, be that as it may, there are multiple objectives shooting a break shot, of which spread may seem important, but isn't the most important, except all else being equal (which upon closer inspection is never the case). The spread of the balls may also be influenced by whether or not the cue ball leaves the table bed/cloth for a split-second, which again changes the angle of deflection, speed of the cue ball etc., and which again may be compensated with e.g. side spin etc. There is no general rule that one type of English will do the trick, again, all else being equal.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti


Ding, Ding, ding.... Great reply, spot on !!!

-Steve
 

Dan White

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
The English one applies fractionally changes the fullness of the hit and thus the angle at which the cue ball deflects off an object ball, and that in turn may make a slight difference in how a player perceives the break angle and spread he or she gets, but the reality is that there would be other ways to achieve the same result, be that as it may, there are multiple objectives shooting a break shot, of which spread may seem important, but isn't the most important, except all else being equal (which upon closer inspection is never the case). The spread of the balls may also be influenced by whether or not the cue ball leaves the table bed/cloth for a split-second, which again changes the angle of deflection, speed of the cue ball etc., and which again may be compensated with e.g. side spin etc. There is no general rule that one type of English will do the trick, again, all else being equal.

I'm familiar with that idea, and it is what I figured he was talking about, but it's such a questionable factor I thought maybe the commentator knew something I didn't. I mean, if you want to change the angle of the cue ball with inside english, then you will achieve that mostly with a softer hit since the ob will throw more with a slower speed, allowing a thinner hit and more energy into the pack. The problem is if you have to slow down the speed of the shot to get that better angle, then you won't get as good a spread of balls. This defeats the purpose of using the inside in the first place. It seems to me if you hit the shot hard enough to spread the balls, you won't really be able to change the angle with inside noticeably.

Your comment that the speed of the shot isn't the most important factor is something good to consider.

Thanks!
 

acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
I'm familiar with that idea, and it is what I figured he was talking about, but it's such a questionable factor I thought maybe the commentator knew something I didn't. I mean, if you want to change the angle of the cue ball with inside english, then you will achieve that mostly with a softer hit since the ob will throw more with a slower speed, allowing a thinner hit and more energy into the pack. The problem is if you have to slow down the speed of the shot to get that better angle, then you won't get as good a spread of balls. This defeats the purpose of using the inside in the first place. It seems to me if you hit the shot hard enough to spread the balls, you won't really be able to change the angle with inside noticeably.

Your comment that the speed of the shot isn't the most important factor is something good to consider.

Thanks!

Of all the pool players, Straight Pool aficionados are the ones who obsess over detail most. I try to remind students that there should be an order to that. Firstly, control is most important: never miss in an open table, so missing a break shot trying to get too much out of it is out of the question. Secondly, the cue ball needs to get loose from the stack, whenever possible in the direction where the object balls go (or more to the point: to from where one can "see" those object balls), preferably center table. Thirdly, breaking open two balls or less one risks being presented with a scenario where re-breaking the stack may be a problem and/or there is no insurance doing so (ideally, there should be only one shot per rack where that doesn't afford insurance: the break shot), but at least retains control. Breaking open two or more balls controlling the cue ball may not seem "ideal" compared to spreading the whole rack wide open, but it's workable. Life isn't all about how easy it might be if […] (insert wish list)! As a matter of fact, breaking the balls Hohmann style and 1) missing the break shot, or 2) scratching, or 3) spreading 14 balls wide open with the cue ball dead safe behind an object ball - that is a more secure recipe for disaster (or at least a 3-foul penalty and new opening break in the third scenario), and it springs solely from a player's wish or hope to make life easier on him- or herself, when in reality, it's merely an alternative means of trying too hard.

(Side note: "hope" is not the type of concept that makes a great Straight Pool player.)

Now that out of the way, I agree with what you're saying about leaving oneself flat angles (not just behind the rack), along with the need to shoot harder, yet deflect off object ball and stack predictably. The main reason the old-timers wouldn't have any of that was that the equipment (wool cloth, let alone, before then, using clay balls) made the attempt itself marginal (I remember, for example, that shooting yet harder, the stack would not open more beyond a certain point on thick wool cloth - all that happened was one sacrificed control over all the balls, especially of course the cue ball).

It's a toss-up to some extent: yes, one will make sizable runs more often getting greater spread on average, so doing so may seem fine during practice sessions. But losing control once per game may be enough to lose against serious competition. That is why leaving oneself flat angles on modern equipment should really serve a completely different purpose: to never miss a break ball. Unless, like me, one grew up with the old equipment, and has developed a different kind of "comfort zone" over the years, which is to leave oneself more angle and shoot everything at a nice and loose medium speed, assured that the cue ball is going to go where it needs to go without any additional effort (because it has nowhere else to go: I find that greatly helps concentrating on pocketing break shots, too, as there's only one objective to observe at a time).

To put it another way: in matchplay or at tournaments today, I'm at a point where I no longer expect anyone to miss in Straight Pool. I'm patiently waiting for them to try and do more with the shot than presents itself.

To end this with: the often-discussed choice of a break shot angle behind the stack where one either goes three rails into the center of the table with inside English (trying to beat the kiss in to the corner ball off the second rail!) or one rail using outside, given one does indeed have a choice and the ability to get the cue ball where one needs it, it really depends on which object ball in the back row the cue ball contacts (if not a gap between two) as to which I'd choose, in other words, the choice has less to do with spread of object balls off the break than cue ball control.

(One of the biggest mistakes - some, obviously not all - Straight Pool players make is to think of the stack as one big mass, literally a "stack", as if it were one object, and not made up of 14 individual objects, that is, contact points and mass behind them which differ in inertia and deflection angles to such an extent it doesn't really make sense to make generalizations or try to find simplistic "rules of thumb" - that, to me, is the secret, if indeed there is one.)

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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acousticsguru

player/instructor
Silver Member
This discussion reminds of me of something I shall never forget. In a KO stages match at a European Championship some years back, I scratched on a behind the stack break shot needing two points, and lost after my opponent ran out with cue ball in hand behind the head string. I tried to go forward three rails and the cue ball followed the object ball off the stack straight into the same corner pocket, never hitting a rail. My opponent, a former Men's 14.1 European Champion (i.e. someone who's no doubt seen a lot himself), shook his head after the match confirming he'd never seen this happen at that type of angle, and indeed, we were unable to replicate the scratch. The week after, back home, I spent a whole day trying to replicate it (hundreds of minute angle and speed adjustments) and couldn't. What this taught me, however, was that I'd done what I always tell others not to do: I'd never looked at the contact point on the "stack" (the object ball, which may have been loose, or more likely the adjacent ball may have been), as it was an angle I'd seen thousands of times, as if there were nothing new to see, I just knew what to do and that I needed that ball plus another, with no doubt in my mind whatsoever that there was nothing that could go wrong. In other words, in terms of the game's physics, the reason I could never replicate that scratch in practice, and have been unable to learn from my mistake (even if I may not live long enough for it to happen to me again), is that I didn't check, that I momentarily assumed the stack to be what it isn't: a "stack" versus a loosely connected group of 14 individual object balls.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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