US Open 10 ball & 8 ball is Back!
- Thread starter tduncan
- Start date
As you know most league play in Texas is on 8 footers i.e. Slick Willies and other similar places. Problem is the national events are played on bar tables. And across the country, I think leagues are mostly played on bar boxes or 9 footers.
Point is 8 ball is largely a different game depending on what table you play it on.
Point is 8 ball is largely a different game depending on what table you play it on.
If you're a REAL player, you adapt to the ALL the conditions that are presented to you before the tournament or league starts! If you don't like the format or conditions, 'You simply don't play!'
RBC
Deceased
I hear what you're saying, but I don't really think this is about the streams.
The truth is that the largest group of people who play pool, and spend money to do so, are also the most likely to become fans of Pro Pool. That group is league players.
If you want more people watching the streams, then you have to have more fans. It's all about the numbers. (fan numbers)
Look at what all the main stream sports do. They are all driven by what the fans want. They have fan clubs where people pay to join!
Fans of a Nascar driver will buy his hats, jackets, bumper stickers and mouse pads.
Pool players want free lessons.
Most pool players are not fans of pool.
Royce
I like the idea...
I like that idea, but not too sure about the bih if whoever goes after the shot misses..That just means back and forth pushouts...
Jaden
I like that idea, but not too sure about the bih if whoever goes after the shot misses..That just means back and forth pushouts...
Jaden
Agreed. As for me, I love to watch the best players play 8 ball on a tough bar table. It's the most exciting bar box game to watch..IMO Conversly speaking I can't stand to watch the best players play rotation games on a bar table...it's too easy for them and I lose interest after watching them run big easy packages. Hell, I've even ran 5 or 6 and I get the 7 out from short stops.
Last edited:
I don't know if there's a formula out there to get existing league players interested in watching pool or not. It may be a totally lost cause, but so is relying on us pool junkies to increase the numbers.
I'm talking here with absolutely NO expertise so you can take my thoughts for what they are worth. I just can't help but think there may be a formula for bridging the gap between the pros and the amateurs and a major part of bridging this gap is getting the amateurs interested in actually watching pool on some level. They don't need to become junkies like us. They just need to drive up the numbers. Now when it comes to streams, I can still see potential for growth within the amateur ranks. If small town hero bar table player was going to be playing Shane Van Boening I would think quite a few people would be interested in seeing this. The trick is just getting the word out.
Let's take this a step further. I'm relatively new to Facebook. My wife is not. She has over 600 friends on there. I imagine this is not a unique thing for longtime Facebook users. If I had 600 friends on my page and I posted a link to me playing a professional player on my page -- not only would many of my friends be interested in seeing me play this match but so would many of the local players that I compete against in league. The word would get out and people would watch. Multiple this throughout the country and throw in some other gimmicks and maybe you could start to bridge the gap.
Another gimmick would be fantasy pool. Get your BCAPL players to make fantasy wagers on both local and known professionals and they could win reasonable prizes that have some sort of tie in with the BCAPL -- BCAPL jackets, hats, cues. Maybe even a grand prize of a paid for trip to the National Event. I know it's easy to just throw around other people’s money and I also understand that the pool world isn’t just flowing with extra dollars to try out this sort of thing but I can just envision an idea like this working on some level.
There I go again....I don't even remember what we were talking about.
I would venture to say it's all about $. I would also venture to say that you're right when you speak of a lot of captive audience players there not knowing of AZ or a lot of things that are going on in pool so this begs the question "why don't they". I believe it's because most league players that everyone seems so interested in drawing in don't give a damn about pool. Pool for them is a league night of drinking and socializing, they just happen to be playing pool while they do it, that's all. You say the attraction they hold is the money they can spend. Considering your position in the industry that's understandable as they are the majority of people that buy into the new "LD" thing, well them and the elite players you give those cues to in that if they play with them then Joe Schmo the 1 night a week 8 ball league player might say, "well so & so uses this cue so it must be great" and buy one with the super duper x-14-z1 shaft with our new low deflection ferrule and turbo overdrive. It is what it is.
I've owned a hall, 10,000 sq ft., 21-9' tables, 8-8' tables with a full bar and restaurant. Against my better judgement I relented & let the APA bring leagues in several nights a week for 2 sessions before I put an end to it. Why? It was my experience they did more damage than good. They had little respect for the equipment, never really came in to patronize my place other than their league night, didn't patronize my kitchen when they were there & the only money they did spend was on alcohol which they spilled liberally and after having enough would plop their asses up on the rails breaking it from the backing & giving the table dead rails. That was enough for me to put an end to it.
While my business was successful I had to put up with things I didn't like for it to be so, live music, etc. things that really don't go well with serious pool which was what I wanted but that wouldn't do it alone so with a heavy heart I sold it.
I agree pool needs to do something to attract a fan base but I what I think it is that it needs everyone says is what has been its problem, Gambling. If you look at where legal gambling in this country was 20 years ago & where it is now I'd say that it's hard to argue that it isn't popular. Lotteries, Casinos EVERYWHERE, poker which exploded. Is that because poker is such an interesting game to play or watch? No, it's because there is gambling involved. It's what pool needs, not watering down the game by playing on toy tables to appeal to a group of people that don't really love it or have a passion for it using some misguided logic that because the bangers play league night on 7'ers that if you switch pro events to 7's it will attract that crowd into caring about pro pool.
I'll close with this, I spent my life in this game, growing up in my fathers hall, then as a gambler & road warrior until the Internet & technology killed the road. Then as a hall owner who couldn't reconcile myself to the compromises I had to make to pool to have that large a hall. When I sold my hall I traveled awhile, to the Philippines mostly, because people there loved the same 2 things I love most, pool and gambling. From the slums of olongapo to the nicest halls in Manila those were 2 things you could find anywhere there, pool and gambling. I found myself in some "interesting places", some little more than shacks with a table and some seating but there was action. You know what else there was? Immaculately kept 9' tables. In that poor a country, in some of the most unusual places you could find a 9' table, a game and action. Are you really telling me that couldn't be done here? Pool needs legalized gambling, not pro events on 7' tables. I find it ironic that no matter where you go in the world where pool is exploding that the one thing you won't find is a bar box, the US is the only place that they're prevalent. Give people something that they can gamble on & you will have your fan base.
Last edited:
I get sick of people saying bar box pool isn't real pool. Due to where I live, bar box tables have been my only option to play pool. Crappy slow ones for the most part. When I get a chance to play on better bar box tables my run percentage increased quite dramatically. I have played on 9 footers on a few occasions and didn't find it terribly hard to adjust. I guess the point I'm getting at is I feel like I'm hearing I'm not a good player because I play exclusively on bar boxes. I disagree and believe any player worth their salt would be good on all tables given time to play on each size table.
The usual anti-league bias is present in this thread, which is to be expected here on AZB.
Despite those feelings, league players are clearly the target market for anyone trying to be financially successful in the pool biz. Hundreds of thousands of people who participate, in varying degrees. And they spend money on pool. In addition to weekly and annual dues, they buy cues and cases and gloves and chalk holders and all kinds of other trinkets that you "real" players look down your nose at.
In my humble, league player mentality, one of the main reasons league players don't follow pro pool is visibility, or the lack thereof. Its not on TV. Not really. Streaming isn't simple or easy to the average consumer, not to mention actually paying for the stream.
I am at a loss as to why the last time these events were held concurrent with the league nationals, they didn't get better attendance. I might suggest that because it is held in Vegas, folks might not be interested is spending their free time watching more pool, when those folks might not get to Vegas otherwise. There are an awful lot of entertainment options in Vegas....
To get more amateur interaction with the pro's should be the goal, and CSI has shown they recognize that, having the pro's in the invitationals last year spending time with the amateurs. I expect that the amateurs who had the personal experience with the pro's last year are more interested in them and what they are doing, as a result.
Growth takes time, and effort. Mark and CSI are trying to move things in the right direction.
(I play league on 9-footers and prefer them, myself. I get the reaction, though not the hatred and vitriol. Wait, this is AZB, I do get it.)
Despite those feelings, league players are clearly the target market for anyone trying to be financially successful in the pool biz. Hundreds of thousands of people who participate, in varying degrees. And they spend money on pool. In addition to weekly and annual dues, they buy cues and cases and gloves and chalk holders and all kinds of other trinkets that you "real" players look down your nose at.
In my humble, league player mentality, one of the main reasons league players don't follow pro pool is visibility, or the lack thereof. Its not on TV. Not really. Streaming isn't simple or easy to the average consumer, not to mention actually paying for the stream.
I am at a loss as to why the last time these events were held concurrent with the league nationals, they didn't get better attendance. I might suggest that because it is held in Vegas, folks might not be interested is spending their free time watching more pool, when those folks might not get to Vegas otherwise. There are an awful lot of entertainment options in Vegas....
To get more amateur interaction with the pro's should be the goal, and CSI has shown they recognize that, having the pro's in the invitationals last year spending time with the amateurs. I expect that the amateurs who had the personal experience with the pro's last year are more interested in them and what they are doing, as a result.
Growth takes time, and effort. Mark and CSI are trying to move things in the right direction.
(I play league on 9-footers and prefer them, myself. I get the reaction, though not the hatred and vitriol. Wait, this is AZB, I do get it.)
RBC
Deceased
Colonel
I understand where your coming from, but I have to admit that I just see it a little different.
I make my living in this industry. I didn't make that choice because I could make a lot of money. It's tough to make a lot of money in pool. As a matter of fact, I could make more money doing many other things that required a lot less work and a lot less risk. I've made more money from pretty much every thing else that I've done. But I love pool and I love making cues and shafts. I would love for pool to grow so that I could make more, no doubt. It was actually much bigger when I started than it is now.
Certainly the league world has tons of players that don't care much for pool. But there are those who do. And, what better way to spread that love of the game, than to share it with others who are already playing. Even if it's just a night out to them. You see, it really just takes a few in the crowd. They start to follow a Pro or an event and they talk about it. The next thing you know there are more talking about it. That's how change happens. I would also say that it's unfortunate that we haven't brought along the etiquette like we should have, but I think that could change as well.
I think your experience as a room owner really supports that fact that pool just can't support a nice large room with nice big tables. It just isn't there. One of the reasons for that is competition. I don't mean competition from other rooms, but more so from other things to do. I don't know where your room was, but I can tell you that there are tons of things to do for fun in Dallas. It's truly amazing at all the different ways a person can find to spend their fun money. If I look back at the cities that I've been to that had great rooms, a large number of them are smaller and a little more blue collar. I think the rooms do well there because they don't have as much competition.
As for gambling, it's a tough one. I appreciate a good money match as much as anyone. I've sponsored many of them through TAR. But here's the one thing that comes to mind when we talk about pool gambling. Picture 3 or 4 guys, who are trying to decide what to do that night to have a good time. They decide to go to the local pool hall and play some pool and have some drinks. This is a group of guys who regularly go out and spend some good money to have fun. Easily $100 to $150 between them. What happens when one of them gets hustled out of $50 in front of his friends? I can assure you that it's the last time they go to a pool room to spend their money!
Two guys matching up to test their skill against each other, and wagering on the outcome is not only cool, it's great! But unfortunately, the ugly side is much more prominent. Lying or intentional deceit is far from true gambling. It's really stealing. And no one wants to feel like they've been robbed.
If you can have gambling without the hustling, then I'm all for it.
Royce
I do realize this, Royce. That is what makes it a challenge for a pro level player to play on the Chinese table. I agree with you that it may not make sense for Diamond to create a similar table; I only used them as an example because I love their tables. More to the point is the need to create a playing field whereby most of us don’t have a good idea of who is going to win within seconds of the balls having stopped moving after the break.
I used to practice in a pool hall close to where I lived that had very difficult 9 foot tables. It took not only a lot of accuracy but also the way the pockets were cut you had to be careful how much you forced the object ball when playing shape as the pocket would sometimes reject balls that would have been made on another table. The cloth seemed to be slower than most and required a good stroke to move the cue ball effectively. They were far more enjoyable tables to play on than the Valley tables that replaced them; but I digress.
My overriding point is that in order for pool to become interesting as a spectator sport there must be less predictable break and running and more drama. From a personal point of view I would offer some observations that weigh on my opinion. I like to watch pool but unless it is being played at the highest level I do not enjoy 9 Ball. I find it too predictable with it often being easy to pick the winner within seconds of the balls stopping after the break. Others must feel that way also or there would not be so much effort going into defeating pattern racking, slow breaks etc. Few would argue that Alex’s win in the one pocket at DCC was great to watch and might have been more interesting than the 9 ball final with Alex and Warren which was one of the better ones.
When I watched the Melling/Pagulayan match from the China 8 ball I found it very entertaining. I could not help but recall how boring the Pagulayan/SVB US Open 9 Ball match was a few years ago when SVB rode a great break to a one sided win over Alex; every game looked the same, predictable and boring.
To re-iterate, the Big foot challenge (I do not know if there is a large market for the 10 foot tables either) has become a must see event because of the added drama.
On a personal level, I will be buying the PPV of the US BB this week even though the field is not up to last year’s level in terms of participants (due to the World 10 ball I would guess). I will buy this to support CSI but realistically will not watch the 9 ball, will watch some of the 10 ball and will watch most of the 8 Ball.
Jerry
here's what i remember from the Riviera & Rio (aside from the fact that i had to stand 2 stairs up to be eye-level with Justin):
KK9 & i walked in & got tickets @ approx 5pm after we'd finished working. the woman sold us on VIP seats - they didn't cost much more & what the hell, right? the room was massive. filled with probably a thousand cues all cracking at what seemed to be simultaneously & tons of woofing, & KK9 had to steer me cause we couldn't hear ourselves think. it was engrosing....
and then we get to the "pro" room.
there might have been 100 spectators (and i'm being generous!). the few who were upstairs in VIP, were busy getting high. the roar from the other room was impressive, (albeit disrespectful).
my point, is that late that night when most was over & everyone was leaving, we walked out with Earl & Deschaine. and our very long walk through that monstrous room, while we had 2 "well-known" pros amongst 1000 players, was absent of their acknowledgement.
the halls & other ballrooms were the same way.
KK9 & i walked in & got tickets @ approx 5pm after we'd finished working. the woman sold us on VIP seats - they didn't cost much more & what the hell, right? the room was massive. filled with probably a thousand cues all cracking at what seemed to be simultaneously & tons of woofing, & KK9 had to steer me cause we couldn't hear ourselves think. it was engrosing....
and then we get to the "pro" room.
there might have been 100 spectators (and i'm being generous!). the few who were upstairs in VIP, were busy getting high. the roar from the other room was impressive, (albeit disrespectful).
my point, is that late that night when most was over & everyone was leaving, we walked out with Earl & Deschaine. and our very long walk through that monstrous room, while we had 2 "well-known" pros amongst 1000 players, was absent of their acknowledgement.
the halls & other ballrooms were the same way.
I hope that anti league thing isn't directed at me???
Not only do I play in league two nights a week, my sponsor for the mezz tour is a league.
I enjoy league, that's my fun time pool. It has it's place. Small table pool has its' place. Its' place is NOT a us open event.
I understand wanting something to bridge the gap between amateurs and pros... I understand the hopefulness in being able to successfully market pro level pool to the masses that make up leagues that play on bar boxes...
Don't tarnish the top level events by bringing them down to that level. Make a new open event for bar boxes, call it whatever you want but not what has already been established as a pro/open level big table event.
I would much rather have no event called US Open 10 Ball than to have it played on little tables. That's not taking anything away from small table play. That's not trying to say that the same people won't win it, that's not saying ANYTHING other than the skill level required to play on little tables is lower than that required to play on big tables when talking about rotation pool.
Yes, I have been less than eloquent in some of my posts in illustrating my distaste for this move, and for that I apologize, but don't mistake my apparent vitriol regarding this as anything other than what it is. The US Open title of any sport is supposed to be the pinnacle of that sport. Requiring the absolute top level of skill.
US Open Ten Ball on bar boxes doesn't come any where close to meeting that criteria.
What happens if it DOES succeed in garnering more interest? Will we all of a sudden switch to the more difficult tables to bring it back to the highest skill levels??? No, we will have rung the death knell for top skill level American pool.
If the USBTC (which is mostly made up of and won by top pros) hasn't succeeded in garnering more interest from the masses, what on earth makes people think having another one and calling it the US Open will do so?
Jaden
The usual anti-league bias is present in this thread, which is to be expected here on AZB.
Despite those feelings, league players are clearly the target market for anyone trying to be financially successful in the pool biz. Hundreds of thousands of people who participate, in varying degrees. And they spend money on pool. In addition to weekly and annual dues, they buy cues and cases and gloves and chalk holders and all kinds of other trinkets that you "real" players look down your nose at.
In my humble, league player mentality, one of the main reasons league players don't follow pro pool is visibility, or the lack thereof. Its not on TV. Not really. Streaming isn't simple or easy to the average consumer, not to mention actually paying for the stream.
I am at a loss as to why the last time these events were held concurrent with the league nationals, they didn't get better attendance. I might suggest that because it is held in Vegas, folks might not be interested is spending their free time watching more pool, when those folks might not get to Vegas otherwise. There are an awful lot of entertainment options in Vegas....
To get more amateur interaction with the pro's should be the goal, and CSI has shown they recognize that, having the pro's in the invitationals last year spending time with the amateurs. I expect that the amateurs who had the personal experience with the pro's last year are more interested in them and what they are doing, as a result.
Growth takes time, and effort. Mark and CSI are trying to move things in the right direction.
(I play league on 9-footers and prefer them, myself. I get the reaction, though not the hatred and vitriol. Wait, this is AZB, I do get it.)
Not only do I play in league two nights a week, my sponsor for the mezz tour is a league.
I enjoy league, that's my fun time pool. It has it's place. Small table pool has its' place. Its' place is NOT a us open event.
I understand wanting something to bridge the gap between amateurs and pros... I understand the hopefulness in being able to successfully market pro level pool to the masses that make up leagues that play on bar boxes...
Don't tarnish the top level events by bringing them down to that level. Make a new open event for bar boxes, call it whatever you want but not what has already been established as a pro/open level big table event.
I would much rather have no event called US Open 10 Ball than to have it played on little tables. That's not taking anything away from small table play. That's not trying to say that the same people won't win it, that's not saying ANYTHING other than the skill level required to play on little tables is lower than that required to play on big tables when talking about rotation pool.
Yes, I have been less than eloquent in some of my posts in illustrating my distaste for this move, and for that I apologize, but don't mistake my apparent vitriol regarding this as anything other than what it is. The US Open title of any sport is supposed to be the pinnacle of that sport. Requiring the absolute top level of skill.
US Open Ten Ball on bar boxes doesn't come any where close to meeting that criteria.
What happens if it DOES succeed in garnering more interest? Will we all of a sudden switch to the more difficult tables to bring it back to the highest skill levels??? No, we will have rung the death knell for top skill level American pool.
If the USBTC (which is mostly made up of and won by top pros) hasn't succeeded in garnering more interest from the masses, what on earth makes people think having another one and calling it the US Open will do so?
Jaden
Take a look at post #167. Does that affect your thinking at all?
I agree that one can be humbled on any table. Only the top pros manage to consistently make a bar table look like a joke. Lesser players may have their moments when they can make the game look easy on the bar table, but I suspect it is less than what many claim on this forum.
2 years ago i mentioned to a few people pool in America was going to be on the bar table, if Mark wants to do a big bar table then we should be glad of another big event to play in. I agree with Justin and a few others the name should be different.
I mentioned to Greg about doing a pro 10ft tour at the pool rooms that have the diamond 10fts, but also said for this to work he would have to do a $5000 added bar table event at the same time, as this draws the players.
It's a shame that the game is going to the smaller table, but at least there will be more events for the players to actually play in.
I don't agree with the bar table events being mosconi ranking events, but we will see how that unfolds and works out.
It would be great if the big bar table events could have some monster calcuttas as well. 7ft pool isn't ideal for pro players, but you have to adapt.
I mentioned to Greg about doing a pro 10ft tour at the pool rooms that have the diamond 10fts, but also said for this to work he would have to do a $5000 added bar table event at the same time, as this draws the players.
It's a shame that the game is going to the smaller table, but at least there will be more events for the players to actually play in.
I don't agree with the bar table events being mosconi ranking events, but we will see how that unfolds and works out.
It would be great if the big bar table events could have some monster calcuttas as well. 7ft pool isn't ideal for pro players, but you have to adapt.
I understand what you're saying but I didn't say my room couldn't make it, it was actually a thriving business that did very well but it wasn't in the way I wanted it to be. Plenty of guys & couples or groups of couples like you spoke of in your post, out for an evenings entertainment, they drank, ate, banged balls, had fun. I really didn't want that. I wanted a clientele that really wanted to play at a high level, that spent a lot of time in the hall working on their game & competing in tournaments that took advantage of the full service bar and restaurant. What I ended up with was the social players out for an evenings entertainment that also wanted live music on Friday & Saturday nights which doesn't really mix with serious pool. I felt like it was possible to have both serious players & those that played for a night out but aspects like the live music suited one crowd in the social players but turned off my hardcore players. So while financially successful it wasn't what I had envisioned in that I spent a lot of time running a business that owed its success to the social set and entertainment & wasn't based in serious pool as I wanted so I sold & moved on. To some in my life and this business it seemed crazy that I would do what I did as it was making good money. I would have been happy to be less successful & made a small profit or broke even and be more pool focused than entertainment focused. I realized that I could have eliminated the entertainment options but that it wouldn't have made it on just pool so I got out.
I really believe gambling could be the key, what pro pool needs. Not the hustle but sanctioned gambling. Developing a system where you have a group of professionals, personalities & a tour or series of events that people can wager on legally. People could relate to the personalities in the game, cheer for them, wager on them. I really believe it could work in that it would attract even those that don't play just because they'd have the ability to wager on it. As I stated in my first post, people love to gamble, sanction it, market it &. Give the people a group of players & events they can bet on, the fan base will come.
RBC
Deceased
Jerry
Well, I'm not sure you get my point then.
I don't think it's reasonable to expect Diamond or any other company to invest hundreds of thousands of dollars to create a very small number of very special tables that they won't sell to anyone just so we can have a challenging event for the Pro Players. It shouldn't even be a consideration.
Now if there was a market for those tables that's a different story. But, if there was there would already be tables being made to fill it.
Royce