mikepage said:
Those of you talking about whether Jews should or should not be offended or whether people need kid-gloves to avoid offending people or etc. have missed (or dismissed) the point I was trying to make. My concern is the effects of these sorts of comments not on Jews, but rather on non-Jews.
Here is my personal history.
I grew up in a suburb of New York City on the working class side of town; My neighborhood consisted largely of second-generation Italian immigrants. Up and through 6th grade I didn't know any Jews. They were mysterious people who didn't celebrate Christmas.
In 7th grade we were to merge with the other side --the largely Jewish side-- of town at a new school. So during 6th grade we began to hear things about Jews. The one I remember is they were cheap and penny pinching, that they would pick up pennies off the ground. These and similar stereotypes continued through the summer.
After the schools joined in the fall, a group of kids from my side of town would hang out at a high-traffic intersection in the junior high school near the lockers. When a Jew would pass, they would throw a penny on the ground and wait to see whether the Jew kid would pick it up.
After a few Jew kids just put their heads down trying to ignore the scene, this group began blocking the way of the passing Jew and demanding the kid pick up the penny. As the kid was picking up the penny, several would chant "Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew Jew."
This group of tough guys began demanding the random Jew kid stand at the intersection with many people passing, rub his belly and pat his head while repeating "I am a Jew, I am a Jew."
To me this was just the way it was. I knew it was mean, and I knew it was wrong. But part of me was just relieved it wasn't happening to me.
That was suburban NYC circa 1967.
As to the stereotypes, It's not so much whether any particular stereotype was bad or negative or whatever; rather, it was the existence and strength of those stereotypes that made it so easy to condemn these people as a group. It took away from our responsibility to see people as individuals. It was bad stuff, imo. You take some of that bad stuff and you throw on top of it bad economic times, and the result can be pretty ugly.
Mike: I'm sure that to some that read your post, especially the OP and two others, that you made the definitive arguement on their behalf. But I don't buy it for a second.
EVERYBODY, including Brian, you, the OP, me, we ALL stereotype. It's a part of human nature. Some is good, some is bad. But, there is no getting away from it. What the story you related is about is bullies. They happen everywhere. Yours just happened to pick on a jewish kid that time. When I grew up, I was the object of scorn to the bullies, and it carried over from them to a lot of the school because they had the loud mouths and people found life better to agree with them, than to go against them.
Care to guess what my object of scorn was?? Nothing more than that I was smaller than the other guys, and was very skinny. I went for years with people not even knowing my real name, they just called me what the bullies did. Eventually, I got sick of it and fought back. I stood up to the bullies. And, it did mean literally fighting. I ended up knocking the daylights out of one of the bigger bullies and he never got a chance to lay a hand on me. Turns out most bullies turn into chickens when they are really confronted.
That episode didn't make me any more popular, but at least people left me alone. And whenever I see a group needlessly picking on another, I still jump in to help the one.
Since we all sterotype, does that make it O.K.? No, but it doesn't make it wrong either. It all depends on the what and why of it. Only idiots and children will take a stereotype and think that it is a law set in stone and judge all of that 'type' exactly the same. And it's up[ to the parents to teach children to know the difference. It does give one certain insights sometimes into what the person may generally be like.
For example, I'm not about to ask a friend who I know is a Jew to come over for dinner and tell him we are having a great honey roasted ham. I know from the stereotype to first ask him if he eats ham. Neither I, you, or Brian are about to go walking through the 'black' neighborhoods at night. Why? Because we all believe the stereotype that we have a very good chance of getting into some serious trouble if we do.
In a utopian world, there would not be any stereotypes. But, until that happens, we all have to live in the reality of this world. So, that begs the question of how to deal with it.
It is VERY obvious when someone means a stereotype as something derogatory. And, in those cases, something should be said or done to educate the person. In many cases, our differences are used as a source of humor. Nothing wrong with that when done in good taste. If you can't laugh at yourself, you will have a difficult time going through life. I'm Dutch. This city used to have a LOT of Dutch in it. They also were known for being frugal. That label doesn't bother me in the least. Why should it? Asians are known for strong family ties.
Each person should always be taken as an individual. And judged according to what type of person they are. (And yes, everybody always judge other people) But to take any comment someone makes about a stereotype and condemn them just for making a stereotype is both intellectually immature and foolish. Stereotypes are not something that is ever going to go away. So you might as well have fun with them instead of using them to create hate and dissension. Which is what the OP and Brian are trying to accomplish. T;hey say they think it is vile and repugnant, yet they do exactly the same thing. They are stereotyping all people that use stereotypes into a hate category that will wipe out the world like Hitler tried to wipe out the Jews. Personally, I think that Brian is closer to being like Hitler than he realizes. I think his motives are good, but he can't see the forest for the trees. And thereby wants to annihilate something that he finds offensive.
And, Brian, you talk about the history of the Jews. Maybe you need to go back much farther in history to find out why the world in general seems to have been against them. You might be surprised. And, before I get accused of not liking the jews, it just so happens I am for them. Study your history a little better and find out why Hitler was against the jews. It had nothing to do with stereotyping, by the way.
Bottom line, parents- teach your children the difference between good and bad stereotyping. Parents, don't be so anal in your thinking that you can't have some fun with who we all are. You will live longer with some humor in your life.
