US Open-The Other Way Around

[L.S. Dennis]

Agree with most of this, Bill.

This is a perfect example of where what the players want is at odds with what makes pool as entertaining as possible.

These pockets will not stop the elite from finding their way to the top of the WNT rankings, but the formula for winning has changed, and winners must do more grinding than ever before. I believe this makes for less entertaining pool. I love the pool I am seeing but feel it could be even better. Nobody runs packages anymore and Matchroom 9ball events, more and more, have the feel of the WPA sanctioned 10-ball events.

9ball isn't fast and loose anymore, and it is losing its identity.

Yes I think you hit it correctly with the words "fast and loose" which is what is lacking in today's game in my opinion. I look back at some of the old accustats taped matches and with the exception of Greg Fix, those games moved along at an entertaining pace with no need for shot clocks. In today's game, as great as today's players are the game of 9 ball is not 'fast and loose' anymore. Hopefully Emily will consider some fine tweaking to make the game more audience friendly and entertaining.

 

[mikemosconi]

OK so , look at all of this ongoing discussion regarding pocket size and pro pool from two perspectives.One perspective deals directly with high level pro tournaments where the very best in the world compete, these players have done nothing but play pool their entire lives- no other outside time constraints or other significant worldly concerns to affect their game. For them, playing on new cloth, the best pool balls, the best cue equipment, perfect lighting and climate control- they can deal with pocket size brought to the limit of game challenge balanced with audience appeal for their method of play ( highly mechanical vs, " fast and loose") - that should be easy to figure out with some intelligent pro player input and administrative decision making.
Problem occurs, for the overall game of pool, in a much bigger way, IMO, when idiots, that's right idiots, encourage public rooms to mirror their table pocket configurations to pro standards. Most people on earth need to work full-time or longer with business travel, are raising families, maintaining house and property, etc. etc. and play pool a few hours a week on the high side. Pool will never " take off" again in this country with anything less than 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets as standard for public enjoyment. Rooms are NEVER maintained to pro tournament standards- so pockets play smaller in public rooms as a rule. I even see bars converting to pro cut Diamond 7 footers- to appease league players who have ridiculously unreal visions of their actual abilities---- talk about limiting general public enjoyment of the game.

Golf itself was on a serious decline with even big box sports retailers closing down their entire golf pro departments, only Covid work from home rules helped jumpstart a newer crop of young golfers- imagine if the golf hole was so restrictive at public courses as to make the game unenjoyable to the newbies - golf participation would not have expanded as it did since 2021.

Current pool rooms in the U.S. that are caving to their small group of mostly delusional patrons are effectively wiping out any future hope of attracting the casual player to adopt the pool room as a viable, repeatable, place of recreation.

 

[straightline]

...Problem occurs, for the overall game of pool, in a much bigger way, IMO, when idiots, that's right idiots, encourage public rooms to mirror their table pocket configurations to pro standards. Most people on earth need to work full-time or longer with business travel, are raising families, maintaining house and property, etc. etc. and play pool a few hours a week on the high side. Pool will never " take off" again in this country with anything less than 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets as standard for public enjoyment. Rooms are NEVER maintained to pro tournament standards- so pockets play smaller in public rooms as a rule. I even see bars converting to pro cut Diamond 7 footers- to appease league players who have ridiculously unreal visions of their actual abilities---- talk about limiting general public enjoyment of the game.

Current pool rooms in the U.S. that are caving to their small group of mostly delusional patrons are effectively wiping out any future hope of attracting the casual player to adopt the pool room as a viable, repeatable, place of recreation.

Convenient blame but It seems at least equally probable that pool is simply bombing in the US.
Europe and Asia in particular seem to be quite successful at rarifying the conditions far beyond the masses.

 

[rexus31]

Agree with most of this, Bill.

This is a perfect example of where what the players want is at odds with what makes pool as entertaining as possible.

These pockets will not stop the elite from finding their way to the top of the WNT rankings, but the formula for winning has changed, and winners must do more grinding than ever before. I believe this makes for less entertaining pool. I love the pool I am seeing but feel it could be even better. Nobody runs packages anymore and Matchroom 9ball events, more and more, have the feel of the WPA sanctioned 10-ball events.

9ball isn't fast and loose anymore, and it is losing its identity.

Change the break rules and there will be plenty of packages. I think pocket size has very little to do with it. The break is more random than ever with the smaller break box, cut break and for the most part, a wild cue ball. One on the spot and no break box would yield some packages, even with 4" pockets.

 

[The_JV]

Seeing more whining about pro pocket size these days on AZB when I pop in, has become as reliable as hearing my daughters bitching at each other when I get home from work.

 

[JPB2]

OK so , look at all of this ongoing discussion regarding pocket size and pro pool from two perspectives.One perspective deals directly with high level pro tournaments where the very best in the world compete, these players have done nothing but play pool their entire lives- no other outside time constraints or other significant worldly concerns to affect their game. For them, playing on new cloth, the best pool balls, the best cue equipment, perfect lighting and climate control- they can deal with pocket size brought to the limit of game challenge balanced with audience appeal for their method of play ( highly mechanical vs, " fast and loose") - that should be easy to figure out with some intelligent pro player input and administrative decision making.
Problem occurs, for the overall game of pool, in a much bigger way, IMO, when idiots, that's right idiots, encourage public rooms to mirror their table pocket configurations to pro standards. Most people on earth need to work full-time or longer with business travel, are raising families, maintaining house and property, etc. etc. and play pool a few hours a week on the high side. Pool will never " take off" again in this country with anything less than 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets as standard for public enjoyment. Rooms are NEVER maintained to pro tournament standards- so pockets play smaller in public rooms as a rule. I even see bars converting to pro cut Diamond 7 footers- to appease league players who have ridiculously unreal visions of their actual abilities---- talk about limiting general public enjoyment of the game.

Golf itself was on a serious decline with even big box sports retailers closing down their entire golf pro departments, only Covid work from home rules helped jumpstart a newer crop of young golfers- imagine if the golf hole was so restrictive at public courses as to make the game unenjoyable to the newbies - golf participation would not have expanded as it did since 2021.

Current pool rooms in the U.S. that are caving to their small group of mostly delusional patrons are effectively wiping out any future hope of attracting the casual player to adopt the pool room as a viable, repeatable, place of recreation.

I agree, but In golf the problem is not the size of the hole but length of the course, green speeds, and other difficulties. Golfers think they want tougher courses with conditions like the pros play on. But that leads to expense. And the game takes longer. So when it costs a fortune to play a 5 hour round, popularity decreases. Many golfers think they should be playing stroke play on long, difficult, penal courses when they’d have more fun playing a match on a sporty little track. They can’t see it.

Likewise with pool tables. Most tables shouldn’t be set up with super difficult conditions and most players don’t need them. I don’t advocate for the easiest pockets, but for years the standard Gold Crown table with standard pockets was plenty of challenge for all but the top tier players.

 

[skogstokig]

Change the break rules and there will be plenty of packages. I think pocket size has very little to do with it. The break is more random than ever with the smaller break box, cut break and for the most part, a wild cue ball. One on the spot and no break box would yield some packages, even with 4" pockets.

yes, i think the heyball people do a 9-ball event once a year, on their 3.5" rounded pockets. one on the spot, no break box, and gareth potts ran a 8-pack.

 

[rexus31]

yes, i think the heyball people do a 9-ball event once a year, on their 3.5" rounded pockets. one on the spot, no break box, and gareth potts ran a 8-pack.

There you go. People are freaking out about pocket size, but breaking in a WNT event is brutal.

 

[mikemosconi]

I agree, but In golf the problem is not the size of the hole but length of the course, green speeds, and other difficulties. Golfers think they want tougher courses with conditions like the pros play on. But that leads to expense. And the game takes longer. So when it costs a fortune to play a 5 hour round, popularity decreases. Many golfers think they should be playing stroke play on long, difficult, penal courses when they’d have more fun playing a match on a sporty little track. They can’t see it.

Likewise with pool tables. Most tables shouldn’t be set up with super difficult conditions and most players don’t need them. I don’t advocate for the easiest pockets, but for years the standard Gold Crown table with standard pockets was plenty of challenge for all but the top tier players.

Yes the other day I played well known league player down here who travels to all kinds of league events - he kept talking about now playing on the Diamond pro cut 7s like it was so wonderful - we played on a 9 foot with bigger pockets - I slaughtered him - the guy did know know pattern play, poor shot selection and poor CB control - 8 ball - so much for his like of pro cut pockets - he had much more to worry about concerning his game - just saying that amateurs should learn the game first before worrying about playing under brutal conditions for amateurs.

 

[garczar]

I agree, but In golf the problem is not the size of the hole but length of the course, green speeds, and other difficulties. Golfers think they want tougher courses with conditions like the pros play on. But that leads to expense. And the game takes longer. So when it costs a fortune to play a 5 hour round, popularity decreases. Many golfers think they should be playing stroke play on long, difficult, penal courses when they’d have more fun playing a match on a sporty little track. They can’t see it.

Likewise with pool tables. Most tables shouldn’t be set up with super difficult conditions and most players don’t need them. I don’t advocate for the easiest pockets, but for years the standard Gold Crown table with standard pockets was plenty of challenge for all but the top tier players.

i see people ALL the time play golf from the wrong tees.USGA/GolfDigest did a study and said that the avg. weekend golfer should never play from longer than about 6200yds. agree with all said here.

 

[Cameron Smith]

There you go. People are freaking out about pocket size, but breaking in a WNT event is brutal.

And for a more direct comparison, the 2022 edition of the WPM was on 4” pockets and had a 5 pack, 4 pack and three 3 packs. Unfortunately there isn’t much data on winner breaks events on 4” pockets with easy breaking rules. I think the 2021 edition was the first year for 4” pockets but there was clearly a learning curve that year.

 

[I love pool]

OK so , look at all of this ongoing discussion regarding pocket size and pro pool from two perspectives.One perspective deals directly with high level pro tournaments where the very best in the world compete, these players have done nothing but play pool their entire lives- no other outside time constraints or other significant worldly concerns to affect their game. For them, playing on new cloth, the best pool balls, the best cue equipment, perfect lighting and climate control- they can deal with pocket size brought to the limit of game challenge balanced with audience appeal for their method of play ( highly mechanical vs, " fast and loose") - that should be easy to figure out with some intelligent pro player input and administrative decision making.
Problem occurs, for the overall game of pool, in a much bigger way, IMO, when idiots, that's right idiots, encourage public rooms to mirror their table pocket configurations to pro standards. Most people on earth need to work full-time or longer with business travel, are raising families, maintaining house and property, etc. etc. and play pool a few hours a week on the high side. Pool will never " take off" again in this country with anything less than 4 3/4 to 5 inch pockets as standard for public enjoyment. Rooms are NEVER maintained to pro tournament standards- so pockets play smaller in public rooms as a rule. I even see bars converting to pro cut Diamond 7 footers- to appease league players who have ridiculously unreal visions of their actual abilities---- talk about limiting general public enjoyment of the game.

Golf itself was on a serious decline with even big box sports retailers closing down their entire golf pro departments, only Covid work from home rules helped jumpstart a newer crop of young golfers- imagine if the golf hole was so restrictive at public courses as to make the game unenjoyable to the newbies - golf participation would not have expanded as it did since 2021.

Current pool rooms in the U.S. that are caving to their small group of mostly delusional patrons are effectively wiping out any future hope of attracting the casual player to adopt the pool room as a viable, repeatable, place of recreation.

Maybe pool rooms should have some good tables and minority of “pro” tables in the corner where people can try their luck or find a little action.

 

[skogstokig]

Maybe pool rooms should have some good tables and minority of “pro” tables in the corner where people can try their luck or find a little action.

i think the future for serious players lies in private clubs. where i'm at that's the tendency. room owners want beer drinking bangers and table rent has gone up every year. even with members discount it soon adds up to where going together, buying 1-2 tables and having a private club pays off pretty quickly

 

[mikemosconi]

i think the future for serious players lies in private clubs. where i'm at that's the tendency. room owners want beer drinking bangers and table rent has gone up every year. even with members discount it soon adds up to where going together, buying 1-2 tables and having a private club pays off pretty quickly

Agreed

 

[Black-Balled]

Change the break rules and there will be plenty of packages. I think pocket size has very little to do with it. The break is more random than ever with the smaller break box, cut break and for the most part, a wild cue ball. One on the spot and no break box would yield some packages, even with 4" pockets.

Them.apples can't be the pink elephant.

 

[Black-Balled]

yes, i think the heyball people do a 9-ball event once a year, on their 3.5" rounded pockets. one on the spot, no break box, and gareth potts ran a 8-pack.

Jeebus. That is full gas right there.

 

[alphadog]

Seeing more whining about pro pocket size these days on AZB when I pop in, has become as reliable as hearing my daughters bitching at each other when I get home from work.

Well that you can put a end to.

 

[smoochie]

While there thru Friday I gathered other perspectives on the game at hand.
9 Ball was Always an aggressive game, where pocket size must be considered.
When current pocket size makes the players Not go ''the other way around'' for shape, the game becomes one dimensional. Toooo predictable.
SAFTEY
When a great player gets on the wrong side of his next ball, the table should offer a pocket size that accepts an object ball at high speeds with whitey coming 5 around or more for shape.
It's pure beauty when a top player weaves the cue ball around other balls and rails then gets ''back in line''.

I hope the play conditions will eventually.... allow this aspect of play to return.

bm

Beautiful statement, exactly what I think too... Not to mention the powerful strokes cheating pockets to do beautiful things with the cueball, That has long gone. Now weaker strokes are happier than ever....

Imagine a weaker stroke player trys to manipulate the cueball while cheating the pocket, he fails most of the time cause he aint got that powerful stroke which makes powerful stroke players A BEAST....Lets say goodbye to that though cause its gone, now lets just baby balls in because we are scared that the ball rattles, and the bad stroke player is happy cause he loves to roll balls in softly.

 

[sjm]

Change the break rules and there will be plenty of packages. I think pocket size has very little to do with it. The break is more random than ever with the smaller break box, cut break and for the most part, a wild cue ball. One on the spot and no break box would yield some packages, even with 4" pockets.

Yes, well said. I think it is the combination of the pocket size and the break rules that have led to more grinding.

The days of the wing ball being dead are over, and I think that is good thing. I think nine on the spot with no break box would improve things a lot.

 

[garczar]

Just keep in mind that tighter wickets give lesser players a better chance. Its a fact because i read it on-line somewhere.