What’s the difference again?
pj
chgo
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Using "Center Ball" - is it good advice or a hidden disadvantage?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
What’s the difference again?
pj
chgo
Shit, man. I would think cj?
You do know that he got his formulas from "angelic guides" that supposedly visited him in his sleep, right?
Lou Figueroa
Nobody can see the perspective of center pocket, (unless the shot is close to straight in) but anyone can see the left or right point of the pocket.
One difference is you can't visually go down to the exact center, another is you can't visually see the pocket's center unless you are straight in, another is you can't aim with the cue ball, you have to aim at a "contact point" on the object ball, another is you will have a tendency to decelerate trying to hit center ball, center pocket while the Touch of Inside (or outside) forces the player to accelerate.
Also, when a player undercuts a shot it feels like they dogged it, when they over cut the shot it it's fine, and there's a simple calibration that is made. When someone uses the Touch of Inside they will over cut shots slightly, I've played for numerous hours and Never undercut any shots.
There is no golfer, tennis player, or baseball pitcher that aims for a straight shot, or pitch, they all move the ball consistency - pocket billiards is the same, every professional player will move the cue ball off the straight alignment line using either inside, or outside cue ball targeting.
Anyway...
I've beat my horse's carcass long enough in your thread, and have had my say. Carry on.
pj
chgo
boogieman
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that ping.
I'm not CJ but my uneducated guess would be that if you have a feel for your shaft/cue it might be more predictable. I know with my solid maple shaft I can have a ball 6 inches from the middle diamond on the end rail, cue ball is on the footspot, hit with the right english (side) and it will pocket the ball. I aim directly at the center of the OB. I know the shot and by aiming center ball on the OB and using the correct side it goes. Less variables than aiming thin and trying to swerve a bit to contact the side. I'd guess once you have it, you have it. I don't fear side/deflection/throw/swerve because I feel it.
Basically it seems like CJ is limiting variables. Do you want your conscious mind thinking of 10 slices of a CB and OB and have it interfering? F' that conscious mind, I want it to shut the hell up and let the subconscious take the driver's seat. If you can turn 10 slices into 4 aims old conscious mind has less to sabotage you with. Feel the CB, feel the shot, shut your conscious mind up because it doesn't know anything anyway. Like the old Serenity prayer says: “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.” Shut your thinking up and let ol' subconcie take the wheel.
You are on the right track, like with anything the main roadblock to learning new, more effective information is old beliefs and programming.I'm not CJ but my uneducated guess would be that if you have a feel for your shaft/cue it might be more predictable. I know with my solid maple shaft I can have a ball 6 inches from the middle diamond on the end rail, cue ball is on the footspot, hit with the right english (side) and it will pocket the ball. I aim directly at the center of the OB. I know the shot and by aiming center ball on the OB and using the correct side it goes. Less variables than aiming thin and trying to swerve a bit to contact the side. I'd guess once you have it, you have it. I don't fear side/deflection/throw/swerve because I feel it.
Basically it seems like CJ is limiting variables. Do you want your conscious mind thinking of 10 slices of a CB and OB and have it interfering? F' that conscious mind, I want it to shut the hell up and let the subconscious take the driver's seat. If you can turn 10 slices into 4 aims old conscious mind has less to sabotage you with. Feel the CB, feel the shot, shut your conscious mind up because it doesn't know anything anyway. Like the old Serenity prayer says: “God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can, and wisdom to know the difference.” Shut your thinking up and let ol' subconcie take the wheel.
One thing I must point out several times before it starts to be processed is there are two different factors to aiming. The first is "Alignment," I teach players in a couple hours how to stand the same relative to the line of the shot, and get down on the cueball the same, using the center of their body to start the motion. This has a clearing effect so your right hip clears, making room for your right hand, so you will get the sensation that you are shooting out of the center of your vision and the center of your body.
You are also correct that the subconscious can reduce the amount of angles that are used to make any shot on the pool table. There are 4 angles that you generate off the Center to Center alignment and 4 angles you create off the Center to Edge alignment. Much like classical music, these 4 angles are themes, and there are subtle variations on those themes that are created by understanding the "3 Part Pocket System" so you can actually use your alignment combined with the 4 Tip Targets.
If you've ever listened to complex musical compositions by Beethoven, Bach, Ligeti, etc you'll notice there is a main theme followed by many variations on that theme. This is similar to what a champion pool player does to make the game as simple as possible....remember, the complexity of pool is the ability to simplify the referential index of physical and mental components so your consistency is beyond incredible.
Music is mathematical, in high school I played the piano in several classical music contests, I was fascinated by the structure of the music and inspired me to understand how a pocket billiard player got into "The Zone," so I could reach this state of mind quickly. We have all enjoyed this trance, usually by driving, drive for 21+ minutes and it may seem like 7, the entire time our reflexes will actually be better and we will have the sensation of being absorbed into the road, the car, and our thoughts.
When performing pocket billiards the Zone will seem like "thoughtless thought," and "effortless effort," (performing at the subconscious level). I competed for many hours feeling like I'm shooting the same type shot over and over again because I used a consistent alignment, consistent stance, consistent body positions, consistent tempo and consistently going down to a tip target that favors the inside or outside of center, which is a essential key, humans can't go down to the exact center and hit it every time!
The Game is the Teacher
You remind me of the cop who lets the legislature do the thinking.
We live in a time that people outsource their thinking, mostly to the media. One thing I encourage everyone to do is to do their own research, that's the only way we can know anything is absolutely accurate. This entire situation we are all in could have been avoided if we had just double checked everything, and it's not too late!
Send me in coach (as they are taking the last man off the field on a stretcher)! Let's talk about spin, and how to use deflection to create angles and utilize the 3 parts of the pocket zone.
For many pool players it's a natural tendency to want to spin shots in with outside "helping" English.
This technique is very useful, especially if you're trying to change the natural angle of the cue ball after contact. There's another way to do this if you want to "master a shot" so you can hit the three parts of the pocket. To do this you must become more accurate and develop a "FEEL" for the pocket.
This isn't any more difficult, it just requires you to simplify your Game and reduce calculations.
There are three {main} calculations you make to be accurate using "outside English,"
1st) - you must judge the immediate deflection and
2nd) - you must judge how much the spin brings the cue ball "back" to it's original "shot line".
3rd) - you must decide where to hit the cue ball to accomplish the intended shot. (these calculations are related, but not necessarily connected like they are with the TOI Technique)
You will find it's necessary to hit these shots at a variety of speeds and a variety of spins to do what you need with the cue ball. This takes a LOT of different calculations because speed effects deflection AND spin. Where you hit the cue ball and how far over to get your "outside English" also effects deflection AND spin.
Over the course of hours, you will have to make numerous calculations and instinctive judgments to make every shot as planned. With the 'Touch Of Inside' system of play I am showing you how to reduce the amount of calculations and instinctive judgments considerably.
The TOI Technique shows you how to hit one "theme" of speeds, one "theme" of spins, and one "theme" of deflection.
I have played many players in my life and the only concern I had was if they would play long enough. Because, even though this edge against other accomplished players may be only 1-2%, it will show up over time. If you're cutting a ball at a "half ball" angle down the rail to the left and using "outside" (right English") you cue ball is immediately going to deflect into the object ball slightly.
To overcome undercutting it you will need to spin the cue ball to make it curve back and the spin will help cut it in. This may "FEEL" like it's helping the cut, but IS IT REALLY? You are having to hit the speed correctly, the spin correctly, the contact point (shot line) correctly and hit the cue ball precisely to do this. I'm sure you do this very well, but how about under pressure?
How do you make all these calculations playing a champion player?
This is where your unconscious will start to falter and break down. You are simply over whelming yourself with these calculations and when you add pressure? I don't know, how does it effect you, do you play better or worse?
How about over the course of a 5-10 hour set, do you rely on your game to get better and better or do you have "ups and downs?" With the TOI Technique I teach players how to use (as much as possible, of course there's exceptions, and less that you may think) ONE SPEED - ONE SHOT ANGLE REFERENCE (center or edge) - ONE TIP TARGET (the "Touch" of Inside).
The one thing you guard against {using TOI} is over-cutting the ball, however, if you're going to miss a shot would you rather over cut it or under cut it? I don't know about you, but when I under cut a shot I feel like a "dogged it," however, when I over cut a shot I feel like I know what I need to do to correct what I did wrong. TOI increases consistency, which strengthens confidence and makes your Game strong, reliable, and very intimidating.
'The Game is the Teacher'
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8BALL EDDIE
Member
DISCLAIMER: I apologize if my input doesn't directly relate and/or flow with what's already been stated in this thread.
I only read the intro and the opening post.
I hear many "experts" preach about only using "center cue" and playing "natural positioning". I've even seen instructional videos teaching beginners to "...shoot the center of the cue ball for over 90% of your shots."
Well...
I grew up in Billiard Parlors and Pool Halls. I've been a student of the game my entire life and I've been playing since I was tall enough to see over the edge of the table. I don't lay claim to being an expert, nor do I pretend to know it all. However. l will put it like this...
If you have a match between two great players of equal skill level - and you restrict one player to only shoot the center of the cue ball, and the other can only use top; bottom; left and right english - I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that the player not hitting center cue will win.
The reason this thread caught my eye is this topic was, in a way, just brought up to me last night. I was at a Pool Hall. After exactly 20 games and 8 opponents, I finished with 16 wins and 4 losses. Someone that is a fan of my playing, and interested in improving their own game, asked me about how I always seemed to have "easy shots". As they commented on my positioning, they asked, "How often do you use English?"
I answered honestly - "Within those 20 games, I hit the center of the cue ball once. That was only because it was the one time there was a natural angle to my next shot."
I only read the intro and the opening post.
I hear many "experts" preach about only using "center cue" and playing "natural positioning". I've even seen instructional videos teaching beginners to "...shoot the center of the cue ball for over 90% of your shots."
Well...
I grew up in Billiard Parlors and Pool Halls. I've been a student of the game my entire life and I've been playing since I was tall enough to see over the edge of the table. I don't lay claim to being an expert, nor do I pretend to know it all. However. l will put it like this...
If you have a match between two great players of equal skill level - and you restrict one player to only shoot the center of the cue ball, and the other can only use top; bottom; left and right english - I'd be willing to bet any amount of money that the player not hitting center cue will win.
The reason this thread caught my eye is this topic was, in a way, just brought up to me last night. I was at a Pool Hall. After exactly 20 games and 8 opponents, I finished with 16 wins and 4 losses. Someone that is a fan of my playing, and interested in improving their own game, asked me about how I always seemed to have "easy shots". As they commented on my positioning, they asked, "How often do you use English?"
I answered honestly - "Within those 20 games, I hit the center of the cue ball once. That was only because it was the one time there was a natural angle to my next shot."
Congratulations on your accomplishments, no need to be an "expert" to benefit from the knowledge you've acquired. Sounds like you enjoy the game, that's most important and helping others that want to improve gains my admiration and respect.
The "center ball" has been taught so long it became like an urban legend, same with the level cue and extended follow-through. As the game has evolved the last 30 years more and more top players almost never hit center ball, always have an angle to their cue (targeting the bottom of the cue ball) and seldom follow through more than 3-4 inches (unless trying to exaggerate the after-contact-reaction of the cueball's distance).
There are specific reasons for this transition, and I've covered several of them, however, it takes the willingness to put aside the old beliefs to incorporate these new, more effective ones. I see too many players get stuck at a certain level and no matter how much they practice they won't ever improve. Once they make up their mind to try what we are discussing the reward is noticeable improvement on all aspects of their game.
The Game is the Teacher
8BALL EDDIE
Member
Thank you. I appreciate that.
Absolutely.
You can open a Billiard Parlor, open its doors, open a table and openly share insight, but that doesn't guarantee others will open their minds.
Far too often, humans choose to struggle by 'doing things their own way' - rather than heeding advice and accepting help from others.
All we can do is continue to offer water and understand that not every horse will drink it.
Yes, it's mostly ego, from my experience, to reach our fullest potential we can't even take credit for what we do or it will leave us. This probably sounds strange to some people, the first time I learned it I was about 12 years old shooting basketball free throws. I had made about 5 in a row, my mother came outside and I said "Hey, look what I can do, I can make this shot every time"......and proceeded to miss the shot 3 times in a row. This didn't make sense for several years until I started competing in pocket billiards and the same type thing happened a few times.Thank you. I appreciate that.
Absolutely.
You can open a Billiard Parlor, open its doors, open a table and openly share insight, but that doesn't guarantee others will open their minds.
Far too often, humans choose to struggle by 'doing things their own way' - rather than heeding advice and accepting help from others.
All we can do is continue to offer water and understand that not every horse will drink it.
It got so I wouldn't even talk about how I was doing in a tournament or match until it was over, then resisted going into any details.....I started saying "it (the game) played well today" in a joking way to avoid taking credit.....Efren always says "I got lucky!" to avoid any ego in his answers.
The "center ball" concept hasn't ever been what champion players have endorsed, Buddy Hall always had his cue angled down, cued the bottom portion of the ball and applied "helping English" to the majority of his shots. He was a firm believer in using the Edge of the tip, which is a smaller area and firmer - Buddy used to practice with me and I played in the finals of two tournaments in a row in Texas back in the late 80s. I use to admire how smooth his tempo was and it seemed like he could draw the ball length of the table with very little effort.....the sound was different too, it was a higher pitched, crisper hit on the cueball.
As far as using the edge of the tip, I compare it to using your knuckles to break something as opposed to the flat fist....you won't ever see a martial artist use their flat fist, they will usually use the first two knuckles, that's essentially what Buddy would do, and I see Dennis Orcollo, Sky Woodward, Jason Shaw, Roberto Gomez, and Shane Vanboening doing the same thing in their own way. We all are following a lot of the same themes, we just don't look exactly the same doing it because of body type, size, shape of wrists, hands and forearms, etc.
The Game is the Teacher
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8BALL EDDIE
Member
Yep.
Always good to stay humble and never stop learning. That's why I describe myself as a "student of the game", and never a "master" of it.
Best of luck as you continue to share insight.
dquarasr
Registered
Sorry if it’s embedded in one of the 11 pages of this thread, but regarding “edge of the tip”, how does the tip shape (nickel vs dime) come into consideration, if at all? Or is this a naive question? (In my pool playing progression I’m still trying to determine if I like nickel or dime better; I’m definitely leaning toward dime.)
I prefer nickel.