USPPA Reno players, did they get paid?

[justnum]

If we are EVER going to see this game get anywhere, then it is going to take EVERYONE working together.

The players, the promoters, the leagues, the media and the various other companies involved with the game (cue manufacturers, cloth makers, table makers, etc).

When everyone finally decides to put their petty differences aside and work towards making the game itself better, then we will have a chance.

Until then, we have NO hope at all of the game ever going anywhere.

We have tour directors bashing each other, tour directors screwing their title sponsors, players screwing each other for a dime, promoters declaring war against each other, league operators declaring war against each other, members of the media screwing the fans, promoters screwing the players, etc, etc, etc.

EVERYONE in this game is so caught up in making sure that they get the biggest share of the small pie that is pro pool, and NO ONE is interested in making that pie any larger.

Don't get me wrong, there are many members of the pool world that spout that memorized line about how they "Do it because they love the game" while they are lining up their next sucker.

And there are a few who bring out the "we work to make the game stronger so that everyone will benefit", but as soon as a decision has to be made that will affect their share of the pie, then it is back to a "me me me" attitude.

But then again, none of this is news. It is the same as it has been for years and years. And it is NOT changing.

Mike

Any ideas on how to make them mesh together to enhance the overall product? Parties, lunches, dances, drinks and other social activities haven't worked in my past experiences. Usually money keeps everyone happy enough to stick it out. But this is not a money available environment. Money only silences the problem, IMO.

I am not trying to add to the problem, if the focus is on smaller problems like getting different factions to operate without petty fights by using middle people or handlers, it is easier to put into action then to sell a vision statement about the end result and then see the fighting over whose means create the better result. Insulation between groups that can't stand each other is common it doesn't solve the problem it just puts the tension on other people, the "worriers."

 

[azhousepro]

Personally, I think it is like an addict. They have to admit that they have a problem in order to address it.

The various members of the pool world have to honestly try to put their squabbles aside and work for a common good.

Think about what we could do if we got all of the major players in the industry together in one room with one goal...

The top production cue makers, the top custom cue makers, the top leagues, the top promoters, the top players (male and female), the cloth makers, the media, the pro shops, the table makers, etc...

Get all of those minds working together to find ways to make the game itself better. Not argue about who makes the better cue or which league system or tournament or magazine or website or player is better than the other. Just find ways to make the game better.

I am not saying that this would be a cure all for the game and it would be like Color of Money all over again. But it would sure be better than it is now.

Mike

Any ideas on how to make them mesh together to enhance the overall product? Parties, lunches, dances, drinks and other social activities haven't worked in my past experiences. Usually money keeps everyone happy enough to stick it out. But this is not a money available environment. Money only silences the problem, IMO.

I am not trying to add to the problem, if the focus is on smaller problems like getting different factions of the industry components to successfully operate without petty fights, it is easier to put into action then to sell a vision statement about the end result and then see the fighting over whose means create the better result.

 

[jay helfert]

If we are EVER going to see this game get anywhere, then it is going to take EVERYONE working together.

The players, the promoters, the leagues, the media and the various other companies involved with the game (cue manufacturers, cloth makers, table makers, etc).

When everyone finally decides to put their petty differences aside and work towards making the game itself better, then we will have a chance.

Until then, we have NO hope at all of the game ever going anywhere.

We have tour directors bashing each other, tour directors screwing their title sponsors, players screwing each other for a dime, promoters declaring war against each other, league operators declaring war against each other, members of the media screwing the fans, promoters screwing the players, etc, etc, etc.

EVERYONE in this game is so caught up in making sure that they get the biggest share of the small pie that is pro pool, and NO ONE is interested in making that pie any larger.

Don't get me wrong, there are many members of the pool world that spout that memorized line about how they "Do it because they love the game" while they are lining up their next sucker.

And there are a few who bring out the "we work to make the game stronger so that everyone will benefit", but as soon as a decision has to be made that will affect their share of the pie, then it is back to a "me me me" attitude.

But then again, none of this is news. It is the same as it has been for years and years. And it is NOT changing.

Mike

Tap Tap Tap! It takes a lot to bring Mike out of the woodwork, but when he speaks we should all be listening. He has CORRECTLY categorized many of the reasons why pro pool has not flourished in America, and the world. Is there a solution, maybe. A different mindset may be the beginning.

Personally I feel a rumbling of positive things in pool today, especially so in light of the present economy. There is a new breed of promoter and entrepreneur that has come on the scene. Fresh faces with fresh ideas, and that's a good thing.

Maybe this next generation of pool promoters will have more success than the last. I also see some of the older generation who have long embraced and enjoyed the game, stepping up to support some of these new promotions. A few of us have been enriched by the game over the years and it is time for us to give back.

Finally I will echo Mike's words, "Work together for the betterment of pool and yourselves!" A strong team can accomplish so much more than any one individual. A smart man once told me that he would rather have a piece of a big pie than all of a small one! :clapping:

 

[Cuephoric]

So, Tony will send the players their checks at some point? Hmmm! Players beware. Two years ago one of Anigoni's tournament directors was partially paid by check and it bounced. It took the better part of a year for Tony to make it good. Just saying.

Weird. I got two checks from him for doing some table work last month, and both cleared at his bank.
Don't know what's going on with the rest, haven't heard from him in a couple of weeks.
Surprised he hasn't popped up somewhere to explain.....

 

[justnum]

Tap Tap Tap! It takes a lot to bring Mike out of the woodwork, but when he speaks we should all be listening. He has CORRECTLY categorized many of the reasons why pro pool has not flourished in America, and the world. Is there a solution, maybe. A different mindset may be the beginning.

Personally I feel a rumbling of positive things in pool today, especially so in light of the present economy. There is a new breed of promoter and entrepreneur that has come on the scene. Fresh faces with fresh ideas, and that's a good thing.

Maybe this next generation of pool promoters will have more success than the last. I also see some of the older generation who have long embraced and enjoyed the game, stepping up to support some of these new promotions. A few of us have been enriched by the game over the years and it is time for us to give back.

Finally I will echo Mike's words, "Work together for the betterment of pool and yourselves!" A strong team can accomplish so much more than any one individual. A smart man once told me that he would rather have a piece of a big pie than all of a small one! :clapping:

The work together motto hasn't worked well for the players because they make the sacrifice and have been short-changed to often. How about work together but be cautious and get proof the prize money is available and safe from cookie grabbers.

 

[jay helfert]

Personally, I think it is like an addict. They have to admit that they have a problem in order to address it.

The various members of the pool world have to honestly try to put their squabbles aside and work for a common good.

Think about what we could do if we got all of the major players in the industry together in one room with one goal...

The top production cue makers, the top custom cue makers, the top leagues, the top promoters, the top players (male and female), the cloth makers, the media, the pro shops, the table makers, etc...

Get all of those minds working together to find ways to make the game itself better. Not argue about who makes the better cue or which league system or tournament or magazine or website or player is better than the other. Just find ways to make the game better.

I am not saying that this would be a cure all for the game and it would be like Color of Money all over again. But it would sure be better than it is now.

Mike

A coalition like this could do wonders for pool. Somehow the BCA, in all their infinite wisdom, never got the ball rolling. They had the ball in their court for a long time, but kept making turnovers when they should have been scoring! All those wasted years and dollars chasing the Olympic dream, when there were so many other options available to make the game grow. Sad, very sad!

 

[jay helfert]

The work together motto hasn't worked well for the players because they make the sacrifice and have been short-changed to often. How about work together but be cautious and get proof the prize money is available and safe from cookie grabbers.

I'm not limiting this to players here. They are only one cog in the wheel.

 

[justnum]

I'm not limiting this to players here. They are only one cog in the wheel.

I agree a simple "Deliver on time and as expected" will suffice.

That previous one leaves the possibility of getting a delayed payment.

"If you have it show it when asked and apply as directed."

 

[azhousepro]

I don't see the BCA as the cure all for the game. But I do see the BCA as one of the few players in the industry that could bring all of the other players together into a room.

Mike

A coalition like this could do wonders for pool. Somehow the BCA, in all their infinite wisdom, never got the ball rolling. They had the ball in their court for a long time, but kept making turnovers when they should have been scoring! All those wasted years and dollars chasing the Olympic dream, when there were so many other options available to make the game grow. Sad, very sad!

 

[azhousepro]

I don't think we need to ask the players to come and play for nothing but promises.

But I would like the players to come to the table with a list of more than "make a ball" when asked what they can do to help the game itself.

I have been at events in the past and listened to pro players walk by the fans and loudly proclaim that "those idiots who chat online have no idea what they are talking about". But I don't see those same players doing anything to educate the fans online about the game.

When Jerry and I did the RunoutRadio with Johnny, I tried to ask him over and over what the players could do to help the promoters. The only answer I got was "we need to get paid". There was never an answer as to what the players could do.

The WPBA holds a pro-am before each tour stop where fans can interact with the players they see on TV in a tournament setting. It is all in fun, but I would imagine it is an experience that not many fans will ever forget. Why can't the men do that? Sure, they have no tour to put it together. But why can't the players organization contact the promoters and offer to come in a day before the event and help promote it to local media, run a pro am with the fans, etc? Why can't the players come to the arena and interact with fans at the event itself when they are not in a match? This whole "I can't lower myself to the fans level because I play so much better than they do" is not getting anyone anywhere.

Mike

The work together motto hasn't worked well for the players because they make the sacrifice and have been short-changed to often. How about work together but be cautious and get proof the prize money is available and safe from cookie grabbers.

 

[jay helfert]

I don't think we need to ask the players to come and play for nothing but promises.

But I would like the players to come to the table with a list of more than "make a ball" when asked what they can do to help the game itself.

I have been at events in the past and listened to pro players walk by the fans and loudly proclaim that "those idiots who chat online have no idea what they are talking about". But I don't see those same players doing anything to educate the fans online about the game.

When Jerry and I did the RunoutRadio with Johnny, I tried to ask him over and over what the players could do to help the promoters. The only answer I got was "we need to get paid". There was never an answer as to what the players could do.

The WPBA holds a pro-am before each tour stop where fans can interact with the players they see on TV in a tournament setting. It is all in fun, but I would imagine it is an experience that not many fans will ever forget. Why can't the men do that? Sure, they have no tour to put it together. But why can't the players organization contact the promoters and offer to come in a day before the event and help promote it to local media, run a pro am with the fans, etc? Why can't the players come to the arena and interact with fans at the event itself when they are not in a match? This whole "I can't lower myself to the fans level because I play so much better than they do" is not getting anyone anywhere.

Mike

Hey I have a novel idea Mike. Why can't some of the big name players come to a major tournaments a few days early and appear on local talk shows and local sports shows, and maybe do an interview or two (or three) with the local media? Maybe even make an appearance at a local mall or two, with a table set up there. None of this would be hard to arrange for a local PR guy. I would think that a promoter would gladly pay for the player's hotel room for helping out this way. Like you said earlier, everyone working together for the betterment of the sport.

They do this in other sports and it seems to work wonders for getting publicity for the upcoming event. But this would take a minimum of planning and some co-operation, things that are in short supply in our sport. :smile:

 

[Mark Griffin]

Working together

For several years I have thought about trying to host a 'pool summit' of the industry leaders for the purpose of addressing what 'WE' can do to improve the state of the industry.

If there is enough interest, I will offer to provide the venue during May 2011. This could be held in conjunction with the BCAPL national 8-ball event and the US Open 10-Ball.

I can provide an office to coordinate the meeting and at a time when many of the top players would already be present.

There is no agenda except to improve the state of the pool industry, however everyone must remember this could be a very intense meeting. There are a lot of long term issues that will be 'discussed' - and a STRONG moderator must be available.

iF this sound viable, please send me an email to: markg@playcsipool.com or call me at 702-719-7665 (office) or 702-835-2000 cell.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

Mark griffin

iF THIS IDEA GETS ANY TRACTION, IT SHOULD BE MOVED TO A NEW THREAD

 

[justnum]

I don't think we need to ask the players to come and play for nothing but promises.

But I would like the players to come to the table with a list of more than "make a ball" when asked what they can do to help the game itself.

I have been at events in the past and listened to pro players walk by the fans and loudly proclaim that "those idiots who chat online have no idea what they are talking about". But I don't see those same players doing anything to educate the fans online about the game.

When Jerry and I did the RunoutRadio with Johnny, I tried to ask him over and over what the players could do to help the promoters. The only answer I got was "we need to get paid". There was never an answer as to what the players could do.

The WPBA holds a pro-am before each tour stop where fans can interact with the players they see on TV in a tournament setting. It is all in fun, but I would imagine it is an experience that not many fans will ever forget. Why can't the men do that? Sure, they have no tour to put it together. But why can't the players organization contact the promoters and offer to come in a day before the event and help promote it to local media, run a pro am with the fans, etc? Why can't the players come to the arena and interact with fans at the event itself when they are not in a match? This whole "I can't lower myself to the fans level because I play so much better than they do" is not getting anyone anywhere.

Mike

I understand that the players could offer more help. However the fan and player interaction is a special dynamic, as long as the fans are somewhat mature it makes it easy. But if the fans are the type to just buck up and loud mouth the whole night in front of the players just to see what they can take, it isn't worth it. I hope the fans you are talking about show up. At the events I've seen most fans know what should be done, how it should be done and why the player is missing better than the person at the table. I do not intend to be against your idea, just want to emphasize caution for potential outbreaks, fights or misunderstood statements that can lead into heated discussions.

I did like how some pros participate in charity events and community service with kids. It is great to put those guys with young people that don't even know who they are. I think that was the BCA who organized that. Those events are great.

Other events that work well is audience based events where they do not have to participate directly with the pros. Forums are popular, panel discussions and structured activities work well and does not put pressure on the fans to create an interesting situation.

 

[JAM]

I don't think we need to ask the players to come and play for nothing but promises.

But I would like the players to come to the table with a list of more than "make a ball" when asked what they can do to help the game itself.

I have been at events in the past and listened to pro players walk by the fans and loudly proclaim that "those idiots who chat online have no idea what they are talking about". But I don't see those same players doing anything to educate the fans online about the game.

When Jerry and I did the RunoutRadio with Johnny, I tried to ask him over and over what the players could do to help the promoters. The only answer I got was "we need to get paid". There was never an answer as to what the players could do.

The WPBA holds a pro-am before each tour stop where fans can interact with the players they see on TV in a tournament setting. It is all in fun, but I would imagine it is an experience that not many fans will ever forget. Why can't the men do that? Sure, they have no tour to put it together. But why can't the players organization contact the promoters and offer to come in a day before the event and help promote it to local media, run a pro am with the fans, etc? Why can't the players come to the arena and interact with fans at the event itself when they are not in a match? This whole "I can't lower myself to the fans level because I play so much better than they do" is not getting anyone anywhere.

Mike

When AzHousePro talks, everybody listens.

This thread has taken a turn for the better, with suggestions on how things can improve.

I am compelled to say this about the current state of professional pool, though, after sacrifcing my business and investing more than six figures into the pool world out of my own pocket. I feel I have a little bit of experience based on the last decade of my participation as a railbird, writer, stakehorse, photographer, partner, and pool enthusiast.

Some players have tried vehemently to give back to pool by giving lessons to children at each event they see little kids playing pool, hanging out with the kids, playing games with them like offering them a dollar for every ball they pocket, giving pointers on how to hold the cue. All this for free, BTW.

Some players have given away several hundred autographed photos for FREE, only to see them for sale on eBay a year later.

Some players have appeared at senior citizen centers and charity events, pool and non-pool charity events, hanging out with the fans before, during, and after -- for FREE.

Some players have been an active member of this very forum in an effort to communicate with the fans. Sometimes the forum members aren't very pleasant to interact with in a forum environment -- not all forum members. Of course, those few bad apples can ruin it for the rest.

Some pro players have tried to help brand-new upstart pool entities for FREE, only to get kicked in the teeth and actually threatened after said pool entity rose in the ranks. The industry members are not without fault, and some of them have wiped their feet on the pro players, after those very same pro players helped them when they were a nobody, again, for FREE.

I bring this point of view forth only to say that it is difficult to paint all players with the same broad brush. Pool's problem today is a compound fracture.

As far as what can help advance pool in the United States, I can only compare it to other sports in the United States.

Ice skating really took off after a scandal with Nancy Kerrigan and Tonya Harding. Even though it was negative attention, it brought the media in, and thereafter ice skating was quite popular.

Poker really took off after Chris Moneymaker won his first tournament. Everybody wanted to take a shot at winning millions, like he did, and the rest is history. With online poker sites and international poker events, poker was brought to the forefront through the media.

Pool shined brightly during the days of infamous feud between Willie Mosconi and Minnesota Fats. Everybody wanted to see what was going to happen next with these two bickering on TV. The blue-blooded personality of Mosconi and Fats' brash demeanor and gift of gab made this duo quite popular, and pool's popularity rode on their coat tails.

There is no doubt that "The Color of Money" in 1986 gave a boom to pool. Several pool movies have come out since, but none of them have achieved the success that this movie did.

Then there's the road warriors from yesteryear. There is a collective wealth of pool gems out there, but nobody will never know about them unless it's by word of mouth. These are pool's unsung heroes. Some are deceased, but some are still around to share the pool tales of being on the road in action 24/7. There are a few Stu Ungars in our pool world who experienced quite an interesting lifestyle, the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's the stuff movies are made of. If done correctly, this could bring a spotlight to pool. Like it or not, American pool has a gambling streak to it, and it needs to be showcased instead of swept under the rug by the pool print media.

Pool is a great social game. Does professional pool have to flourish in order for pool to become popular again? I used to think so, but now I am not so sure. Rather, it is the leagues and regional tours that seem to have the masses today, and this may be the best target audience, much more so than getting people interested in professional pool.

Just food for thought. :thumbup:

 

[Celtic]

For several years I have thought about trying to host a 'pool summit' of the industry leaders for the purpose of addressing what 'WE' can do to improve the state of the industry.

If there is enough interest, I will offer to provide the venue during May 2011. This could be held in conjunction with the BCAPL national 8-ball event and the US Open 10-Ball.

I can provide an office to coordinate the meeting and at a time when many of the top players would already be present.

There is no agenda except to improve the state of the pool industry, however everyone must remember this could be a very intense meeting. There are a lot of long term issues that will be 'discussed' - and a STRONG moderator must be available.

iF this sound viable, please send me an email to: markg@playcsipool.com or call me at 702-719-7665 (office) or 702-835-2000 cell.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year

Mark griffin

iF THIS IDEA GETS ANY TRACTION, IT SHOULD BE MOVED TO A NEW THREAD

Bump, this is a great idea, lets not let it die within 2 posts... I would very much like to watch a meeting like this unfold and see who is willing to do what for the betterment of the sport as a whole and who shows the "what do I personally get out of it though" mentality.

 

[Celtic]

But I would like the players to come to the table with a list of more than "make a ball" when asked what they can do to help the game itself.

Mike

The promotion of the sport is going to require the players to get out there and spur interest. Jay has the right idea with interviews on TV prior to the events, talk shows if you can get on them, exhibitions/trick shot shows in a mall prior to the event while advertising the upcomming event.

The tournaments in Asia are also being run in malls and other public areas that get alot of traffic and spur interest in people who are otherwise not going to go out of their way to see the sport. A place like the Fashion Show Mall in Las Vegas could run a tournament on the main level, roped off with 8 tables and allowing for many many people to watch the play from the upper level railing. That is but an example, many malls in America would work for something like this, a tourney once held in Central Station in New York had the right idea as well.

The key is to get the sport out there. During the BCA 95% of people who enter the Riviera likely never even realize a pool tournament is going on as it is in the far back area of the Casino. Imagine if the casino set up a single roped off pool table in the front of the casino and high profile matches for the pro event were played on it. It would act to get people entering the casino much as many strip casinos use these types of grabs, and also it would be huge in helping the general public realize the sport exists.

Granted you cannot charge $5 for people to watch that match if you do this but to be perfectly blunt this sport is nowhere near the level of popularity where you want to start putting it behind closed doors and in effect limiting its possible exposure and growth for the chance for a couple hundred dollars in admission. The slight loss in profits doing that is nothing compared to the possible future payoff if you can actually get people interested in the sport. Get people in the seats, get the people watching and taking interest in the sport.

 

[Mark Griffin]

Solution???

This is a 4 year old post I put on AZBilliards. Maybe it should be revisited.
Also, plese read post #152 - I would hate for a 'meaningful meeting' to get lost in all the cluter.

Mark Griffin


12-05-2006, 05:09 PM

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read this post with great interest. Something I have contemplated getting involved in is a "sanctioning" process whereby an added money tournament goes through a screening process and lets the playing public know the true status of the financial abilities of the event.

This would be on a voluntary basis. But if done properly, I believe it would give the players a better understanding and feeling of the viability of the event.

The process would be rather simple. To get a high rating, the promoter would have to show the added money - either in a bank escrow, attorney trust account or other such documents. The key is that it CANNOT be utilized for anything other than the prize fund.

The signups could be done on-line with a credit card to this sanctioning body. If the event gets shaky or whatever, the entries could be fully refunded. A player could monitor the event up until buying a plane ticket.

The current situation is a bad deal. More proposed events/tours fail than that actually materialize. (Remember National Pool Series, Million Dollar Tournament, Cujuroho, and several others that promised big money). The players do not have the vehicle to send in entry fees that are secured. If a new promoter was to come on the scene, would the players actually send the entry money?

This could be a vehicle to help the process.

One of the main reasons for the BCAPL getting involved in this is that league players from our organiztion are more likely to play in these top-tier events that any other leagues organizations - I feel it is my duty to help protect my players. And in the same stroke help increasd the integrity of future events.

Comments are more than welcome.

Mark Griffin, CEO
BCAPL
702-719-7665
702-835-2000 cell

 

[RED LITE]

Don't hold your breath...

Well, I have read this thread through (very unlike me); kept thinking that someone would come through with a paycheck; or maybe that Tony A. would respond personally. We know he likes to talk.

It just hit me how truly unlikely that would be. It's true this is a big, unacceptable problem; and that it is bad for the sport, generally.

But since a substantial amount of unpaid money may be involved, Tony would be foolish to jump onto this board and make any statement (which would then be picked apart and probably end up as a court exhibit). I hope it doesn't come to that.

JAY: That LA tent tournament wasn't so bad, except that spectators were periodically distracted by horse racing calls from the adjacent track.

MARK: I like your 2011 consensus meeting ideas. Good luck on that.

RL

 

[bumpypickle]

Any checks yet?

Bump to keep Tony Annigoni on his toes.

 

[Craig Fales]

Any ideas on how to make them mesh together to enhance the overall product? Parties, lunches, dances, drinks and other social activities haven't worked in my past experiences. Usually money keeps everyone happy enough to stick it out. But this is not a money available environment. Money only silences the problem, IMO.

I am not trying to add to the problem, if the focus is on smaller problems like getting different factions to operate without petty fights by using middle people or handlers, it is easier to put into action then to sell a vision statement about the end result and then see the fighting over whose means create the better result. Insulation between groups that can't stand each other is common it doesn't solve the problem it just puts the tension on other people, the "worriers."

The only way at this point I feel is to purge the garbage out. Those that screw others will disappear in a flash when no one shows at their tourney or buys their product or frequents the room of a greedy owner. Right now there are waaaay to many factions and "organizations". As for pro players there should only be one. And of the ones that do exist it's been proven that there are none that are looking out for the players themselves.