USTA (tennis org) Lifts Ban on Russians and Belarusians. WPA (pool org) should also!

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
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where does fedor gorst and margarita fefilova fit into this tirade? of what are they accused?
fit into this tirade?
they, the russians all can fit into hell, the borders of post USSR, they deserve no passage of liberty in the free world.

...of what are they accused? atrocities fit for Europe.
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
fit into this tirade?
they, the russians all can fit into hell, the borders of post USSR, they deserve no passage of liberty in the free world.

...of what are they accused? atrocities fit for Europe.

they have done no such thing. it's an absolutely ludicrous accusation.
 

Dan_B

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
So, you're thinking like a non-voter, you are excused from the situation?
 

skogstokig

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
So, you're thinking like a non-voter, you are excused from the situation?

i'm thinking that having a russian or belarusian birth certificate is insufficient prerequisite for being a war criminal. suggesting that it is, is very well aligned with the collectivist thinking of the USSR and other dictatorships
 

Tennesseejoe

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Russia has invaded a friendly country...citizens of that country should only be allowed in the free world to renounce their citizenship and request asylum. This is not a monetary value but a moral value and my vote.
 

sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
To reiterate, you used the word "uninformed." There are others who have invested time, passion, money, and their life into pool. We each have our own likes and dislikes when it comes to players, and there is no caste system when it comes to pool fans, no matter how deep their pockets may be. Wealth does not make one opinion stronger than the other or one's passion stronger than the other either.

I do disagree with the mathematical estimates you have shared as your opinion on how much pro players may earn this year. Everyone is, of course, entitled to believe what they think is statistically significant based on facts, obtainable facts, which in pool is a big unknown. AzBilliards and other pool-related websites do their best to document earnings, but it's not 100 percent accurate, and for sure, the expenses a pro player incurs will differ from player to player. Some don't mind sleeping in their cars or on the floor in a shared hotel room or eating at McDonald's on a regular basis.

Having been out there on the tournament trail and seen firsthand what it costs a pool player to compete on a regular basis, I am cognizant of the fact that there are, indeed, many expenses that are quite different than expenses a railbird has sitting in the stands. Time invested in practice is a type of expense, I guess, kind of like going to work to develop one's skill set.

But I don't want to engage in a back-and-forth on whose opinion is more accurate than another. They are opinions, and you are certainly entitled to yours, as am I.

JAM <-- VERY INFORMED
A generally good post, and yes, wealth is irrelevant, except in the sense that it has permitted me to dedicate some of my time in pool's trenches. My knowledge comes from the fact that this is my 47th year around the pro scene, and from having had ties to the sport on many different levels over so many years,

And, yes, I have sponsored players and been on the tournament trail with them just like you, so I, similarly, have first-hand knowledge of the costs and issues surrounding participation. I was sponsoring players as early as the 1990's, so you may know the 1980s better than me, but I suspect I know the 2010s and 2020s better than you because I've been closer to the scene. In the end, let's just say we are both pretty fluent in the language.

I love the point you made about time invested in developing proficiency representing an expense. I'll have to concede that I've never thought of it that way, but I'm inclined to agree. It's a largely undocumented cost, but it's very real.

Sorry about the uninformed comment. I just sensed that you didn't give any regard to the fact that 2022 has been a year in which more players can make ends meet than any in recent memory, and it bothered me a little.

Of course, you're informed!
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
Enforcing the ban in the US in a pro tournament violates our civil rights act, so this isn't a surprise. I wrote an article in last month Billiards Buzz on the details if anyone is bored. No professional sports (other than pool) has applied the ban in the US for this reason.
Just a question here, one that requires a little speculation on my part, so please bear with me.

Could future sanctioning be denied in the event of a US promoter's choice to ignore the ban, and if so, would you guess that this concern is why event producers of US-based tournaments have chosen to enforce the ban?
 

kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Just a question here, one that requires a little speculation on my part, so please bear with me.

Could future sanctioning be denied in the event of a US promoter's choice to ignore the ban, and if so, would you guess that this concern is why event producers of US-based tournaments have chosen to enforce the ban?

That's a good question. The WPA would say it's not subject to this part of the civil rights act as it's not actually running tournaments so it can do whatever it wants including withholding future sanctioning. Matchroom is the entity that's actually violating the law.

I don't know the politics between Matchroom and the WPA. But as the face of pro pool and someone who is doing a great job pushing the sport forward, I would have to imagine Emily at Matchroom had had discussions with the WPA to wrap this up but doesn't want to cause discord or distract from tournaments.

There is a recent parallel with FIFA and US Soccer. FIFA required that women be paid less than men (despite the US Women's team being more popular and a bigger draw than men here). Female players sued US Soccer, who defended on the basis that they were just doing what FIFA required. The EEOC said that's not a defense--some sports group can't rewrite US laws. US Soccer eventually settled for $24M in form of future payouts but the FIFA rule remains in place elsewhere.
 
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sjm

Older and Wiser
Silver Member
That's a good question. The WPA would say it's not subject to this part of the civil rights act as it's not actually running tournaments so it can do whatever it wants including withholding future sanctioning. Matchroom is the entity that's actually violating the law.

I don't know the politics between Matchroom and the WPA. But as the face of pro pool and someone who is doing a great job pushing the sport forward, I would have to imagine Emily at Matchroom had had discussions with the WPA to wrap this up but doesn't want to cause discord or distract from tournaments.

There is a recent parallel with FIFA and US Soccer. FIFA required that women be paid less than men (despite the US Women's team being more popular and a bigger draw than men here). Female players sued US Soccer, who defended on the basis that they were just doing what FIFA required. The EEOC said that's not a defense--some sports group can't rewrite US laws. US Soccer eventually settled for $24M in form of future payouts but the FIFA rule remains in place elsewhere.
Thanks for an enlightening post. A few of these issues go right over my head.
 

Guy Manges

Registered
In an interview with the Associated Press, the USTA (United States Tennis Association) said the decision had been made because to let Russians and Belarusians compete in the upcoming U.S. Open for tennis because of "concern about holding the individual athletes accountable for the actions and decisions of their governments."

Professional pool is such a fractured industry. Tennis pros have the capability of earning six and seven figures at their events. Pool pros are playing world-beaters to compete for $30,000 and a tin cup at most pro events today.

Some pool pros on Facebook recently shared their disappointment of flying from their home countries to England, only to be knocked out of the first round of the event in a race-to-7, incurring a lot of expenses to attend, and having to return home.

WPA should lift the ban hammer and let our brethren of pool pros from Russia and Belarus compete in the upcoming pro pool events that they sanction. Personally, I think their sanctioning doesn't do much for pool as a whole, but that's my opinion. Pool purists continue to praise and like the WPA and what it's doing for pool.

Read more here: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/15/tennis/us-open-russia-belarus-spt-intl/index.html

Russian Daniil Medvedev -- the reigning US Open men's champion -- will be able to defend his title.

View attachment 646628

Belarusian Aryna Sabalenka is currently the women's world No. 5.

View attachment 646629
This seems to be exactly the way we in the pool world will except it... Guy
 
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Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
The worst atrocities in Europe since WW2 are happening right now and Putin is using his athletes to sportwash his country's reputation. 80% of Russians are backing the invasion. So no, I don't feel bad for Russian athletes. I feel bad for Ukrainians, women being nailed to tables and raped, children and old men being murdered. I talked to someone from there, and the stories are too gruesome to post. Basically the Russian army (which many athletes are affiliated with) are acting like the scum of the earth. So the athletes can no longer pose next to the Hitler of our time with big smiles on their faces, because they won for their "glorious" motherland or wear jacket with z's on them, because now they don't get to participate anymore. Well, that's too f ING bad. Sports are so deeply embedded into the military and politics in Russia, that athletes get ranks and positions in the armed forces. If an athlete were to speak out publicly against the invasion, then that would be different, but until they do I support banning them back to the stoneage.
 
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Guy Manges

Registered
Enforcing the ban in the US in a pro tournament violates our civil rights act, so this isn't a surprise. I wrote an article in last month Billiards Buzz on the details if anyone is bored. No professional sports (other than pool) has applied the ban in the US for this reason.

Thank you all for that... Guy
 

Guy Manges

Registered
Yes, in this event, every player will cash.

At current pace, about 20 of them will earn over $90,000 without sponsorship money. Another fifteen are safe bets to win $75,000 or more in prize money, and every single one of them has sponsorship. Then, there are others with major sponsorship that will have off years, or who will be unable to participate much in the major pool scene but will still make $100,000. Yes, 50 was too high. I'm going with 40.


Actually, I don't have many favorites period. In most matches I watch, I don't root for either player. It's only when a friend is playing that I root at all. I just want to see good pool, no matter who is playing it. I surely have more friends among the American players than the Europeans. If you mean that I rate the European contingent above the American contingent, you've got me on that one.


Honestly, I have no idea what this even means. I have sponsored players, co-sponsored events, and had administrative roles in our sport in the past. I'm sure I know as least as much as you do about the economics of participation in the sport on all levels and, in all probability, much more. What mountain top? I am a fan first, but I'm also somebody who has contributed and continue to contribute both my time and money to the general betterment of the sport and to some players that are, in my view, deserving.
YES and Deserving of all... Maybe someday Stu you can have that mountain top and a big old pool room , with good lighting , for what you do, I'll pray... Guy
 

kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
The worst atrocities in Europe since WW2 are happening right now and Putin is using his athletes to sportwash his country's reputation. 80% of Russians are backing the invasion. So no, I don't feel bad for Russian athletes. I feel bad for Ukrainians, women being nailed to tables and raped, children and old men being murdered. I talked to someone from there, and the stories are too gruesome to post. Basically the Russian army (which many athletes are affiliated with) are acting like the scum of the earth. So the athletes can no longer pose next to the Hitler of our time with big smiles on their faces, because they won for their "glorious" motherland or wear jacket with z's on them, because now they don't get to participate anymore. Well, that's too f ING bad. Sports are so deeply embedded into the military and politics in Russia, that athletes get ranks and positions in the armed forces. If an athlete were to speak out publicly against the invasion, then that would be different, but until they do I support banning them back to the stoneage.

Tkach has spoken out against the war. I don't know about Fedor as he is not as active online.

Instead of trying to have some sports organization manage this for IOC political points, let alone billiards, the US government can deny or revoke visas for Russian nationals. That's the normal solution in times of war and is being used today with our sanctions. But of course no pool player is on the sanctions list as none have anything to do with the military or government. If Fedor served in the military he would already lose his O-1 visa that he uses to play pool in the US full time.
 

Straightpool_99

I see dead balls
Silver Member
Tkach has spoken out against the war. I don't know about Fedor as he is not as active online.

Instead of trying to have some sports organization manage this for IOC political points, let alone billiards, the US government can deny or revoke visas for Russian nationals. That's the normal solution in times of war and is being used today with our sanctions. But of course no pool player is on the sanctions list as none have anything to do with the military or government. If Fedor served in the military he would already lose his O-1 visa that he uses to play pool in the US full time.
If it's true she spoke out against the invasion, I would wholeheartedly support making an exception for her and would never oppose her participation in any pool or billiards event. I wish her well
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
As far as the support of ordinary Russians... At one Derby City three or four of the Russians were hanging around the 14.1 area. I made a little joke about Putin. The Russians got very quiet. I think it's hard to say what the ordinary Russian is thinking at this point.
 

claymont

GET SOME
Gold Member
Silver Member
This is part of what putin is doing to Ukraine; here are a few more pictures to add to this discussion. IMO unless a Russian athlete totally disavows putin and his actions they should not be allowed to compete.

In pictures: How Russia's invasion of Ukraine has unfolded

In an interview with the Associated Press, the USTA (United States Tennis Association) said the decision had been made because to let Russians and Belarusians compete in the upcoming U.S. Open for tennis because of "concern about holding the individual athletes accountable for the actions and decisions of their governments."

Professional pool is such a fractured industry. Tennis pros have the capability of earning six and seven figures at their events. Pool pros are playing world-beaters to compete for $30,000 and a tin cup at most pro events today.

Some pool pros on Facebook recently shared their disappointment of flying from their home countries to England, only to be knocked out of the first round of the event in a race-to-7, incurring a lot of expenses to attend, and having to return home.

WPA should lift the ban hammer and let our brethren of pool pros from Russia and Belarus compete in the upcoming pro pool events that they sanction. Personally, I think their sanctioning doesn't do much for pool as a whole, but that's my opinion. Pool purists continue to praise and like the WPA and what it's doing for pool.

Read more here: https://www.cnn.com/2022/06/15/tennis/us-open-russia-belarus-spt-intl/index.html

Russian Daniil Medvedev -- the reigning US Open men's champion -- will be able to defend his title.

View attachment 646628

Belarusian Aryna Sabalenka is currently the women's world No. 5.

View attachment 646629
 

JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As far as the support of ordinary Russians... At one Derby City three or four of the Russians were hanging around the 14.1 area. I made a little joke about Putin. The Russians got very quiet. I think it's hard to say what the ordinary Russian is thinking at this point.

I've probably read too many books and seen too many period-piece movies, but my opinion is that some Russian athletes still have families back home in their mother country and may be afraid to utter a word against Putin and his war crimes. Saddam Hussein was hunted down and hung. Putin is getting away with murder. He should be tried in the International Criminal Court for a crime of genocide.

I am not sure about all of the Russian pro pool players, but I have read on Fedor's and Kristina's Facebook pages when the invasion of Ukraine first happened that they both condemn the actions of Russia against Ukraine and do not associate themselves with this activity whatsoever. I can dig up their Facebook posts, I guess, but they both have stated in public they are against this senseless murder of Ukrainian people.
 
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JAM

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
AFAIK Fedor is only in the process of O-1, and he is to go back home come fall (due to his current visa expiry).

I feel very sorry for Fedor, Kristina, and the other Russian athletes who do not approve whatsoever of the Russian invasion on Ukraine, and if they return to Russia to be with their families, they could put themselves and their families in danger. I am sure they will be interrogated to the nth degree.

Also, as an American, I love USA and have spent my entire life appreciating my heritage and the country I grew up in. I am sure for Russian athletes, it must be awful to stand by and watch their government commit war crimes. On the one hand, they, like me, love their country, but with what is going on, they are probably afraid to return back to their Home Sweet Home at this time.

There is nothing wrong with being a proud Russian if you are Russian. It is important to remember the majority Russian people do not approve of this Putin war crime, but unlike the United States where we have freedom of speech, they may be afraid to speak out. It's quite sad, actually.

In war, it's always the government-to-government conflict that is horrific to witness in war, but it's the innocent citizens of that country who suffer, who lose loved ones in the war, who get their homes bombed, and who have no sense of joy while a war is in progress. The Russian people who are scared, do not approve of the Ukrainian invasion, and don't speak out are innocent victims of the war too. This is all Putin's doing.
 
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