VERY basic elementary questions/info

Dirtbmw20

Dirtbmw20

Lee Casto
Silver Member
:rolleyes: Alright guys, don't laugh too hard or bust my balls too bad but I know these questions are gonna be VERY basic and extremely elementary to most (if not all) of you, BUT, I am as newbie as they come with a lathe and won't know these things unless I ask. I have no machinist training from high school or any trade school, never owned or operated a lathe until now, but I am extremely mechanically inclined and learn very quick (yea I know they all say that). I bought one of Todd's used lathes from another forum member that is in superb condition, less that a year old and needs nothing, came with some tooling I know very little about.

I bought the lathe MAINLY to do tips and clean my shafts, AND to LEARN how to do tenons and ferrules, possibly play with some wraps, of course, ALL on MY OWN CUES. I have pretty much mastered tips from the very first one, had to replace a ferrule on a buddy's one piece house cue but he wanted a G10 ferrule/tip combo put on and I had one from Muellers so I didn't have to drill or tap it although I did have to turn his tenon down and thread it to fit the ferrule/tip combo I had.

I got several different rod materials for making ferrules, got some cutting bits, drill bits, taps, etc. and some boring bars with the lathe too. The bits I have no problem figuring out but the boring bars have me confused. :embarrassed2:

I cut some small pieces of rod material to play around and make some test ferrules and I'm not sure if I need to use a boring bar or a drill bit to drill the ferrule out. I used 2 different size boring bars on the first 2 I did just to see what they did, the boring bar makes a nice perfect hole but as far as which (size) boring bar I need to use, I am clueless as to that. When making a CAPPED ferrule, how thick should the cap be ???

I have Hightowers repair video and I THINK I remember him saying in the video a threaded tenon was .280 in size and a NON threaded is .340 in size......... is that correct ??????

I used a 3/16 x 3/8 boring bar on one ferrule and the hole measures 0.330 on my digital calipers. I used a 1/4 x 3/8 boring bar on the other ferrule and that hole measures 0.353 on my calipers. Shouldn't the 3/16 bar bore a hole close to .1875 and the 1/4 bar bore a hole close to .2500 ??? Do the boring bars go in the tool holder any "specific" way or direction of the cutter going a certain way ???

Sorry for getting so long and sorry for all the very basic, elementary questions, but I did a search over the last few days and couldn't find the answers to my questions. Thanks to all who takes the time to read and reply back. :thumbup:
 
I forgot to add.......


I have an ivory ferrule that I am wanting to install on my Coker player, the ferrule needs to be drilled and/or bored and tapped (assuming my Coker has a threaded tenon, I haven't removed the old ferrule off my Coker yet). I am wondering if I need to drill OR bore the ferrule ??? If drill.... what size bit ??? If boring it..... what size boring bar ??? How much cap do I leave on the end when drilling/boring it out ???
 
Use drills to drill into ferrules. The only reason to use boring bar would be for an odd size tenon. Drill 1/4 in for .280 tenon and 5/16 for .340 tenon. You then have to tap the ferrule with 5/16 x 18 for .280 tenon and thread the tenon for same. You tap the 5/16 with 3/8 x 10 or whatever 3/8 you want to use. You also have to thread the tenon to the same or you can cut the tenon down to .320 and let the ferrule thread as it goes on.
 
I am basically in the same boat as you. Glad to see you are taking the initiative to learn. Best of luck.
 
Brickcues said:
Use drills to drill into ferrules. The only reason to use boring bar would be for an odd size tenon. Drill 1/4 in for .280 tenon and 5/16 for .340 tenon. You then have to tap the ferrule with 5/16 x 18 for .280 tenon and thread the tenon for same. You tap the 5/16 with 3/8 x 10 or whatever 3/8 you want to use. You also have to thread the tenon to the same or you can cut the tenon down to .320 and let the ferrule thread as it goes on.
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Brickcues...... thanks for taking the time to read my post and provide me some answers. That makes sense and I understand to use the boring bars for an odd size tenon. You got me a little confused though. I have to drill with a 1/4 bit and tap the ferrule with a 5/16-18 tap (<<< I understand that part). Where I'm confused is you then say to tap the 5/16 with a 3/8 x 10 or whatever 3/8 I want to use. How can I use a 3/8 tap in a 5/16 hole ??? And if I have already tapped my ferrule to 5/16-18 then WHAT am I tapping to 3/8 x 10 ??? I have the tool used to thread the tenon but my Coker is practically brand new (I am the 1st original owner) so I'm hoping the tenon is already threaded.

Thank you again for taking the time to help me.
 
I'll try to help.
Depending on the hardness of the ferrule material, that is how I determine what size I will drill the hole. Everyone is different and this is only my method.
ex. Soft ferrules like ivorine 3 or grice, I drill the hole with and -F- drill .257
Ivory ferrules and hard material like it, I drill .265. (Don't forget the fiber pad under the tip)
If you want to have a capped ferrule, most that I have seen, have a 1/8 to 1/4" cap.
I only use epoxy to install ferrules.
I don't do anything with slip on ferrule, I don't do them.
For boring if you choose to bore, Get a boring bar by micro 100, I think they go down to .200 wide. They are offered in reduced shanks and longer and shorter shank length's, If you get one, try the taper shank, it will serve for everything up to 1 1/2 in length. If you are planning to bore the i.d. of stainless joints, get the reduced shank, it's more rigid.
Hope this helps.
 
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DoubleD said:
Boring bars are used to cut holes of various sizes by locating the bar off axis of the workpiece.

Drills and reamers are used for making holes on axis.
Thank you very much, that kind of to the point answer is what I'm looking for, is "specifically" what the tool is used for.
Buy a machining book or take classes--not 'cuemaking' classes, machining classes.
With all due respect, there is always circumstances behind every situation. Although I know the BEST method for me to learn what I need is to take a class at my local technical community college but I am a new father with a 7 month old baby at home, living on a one income budget, working a full time job at 55-60 hours a week and I don't make a killing, so taking any classes is WAY out of the question. I value your info, you always give great info, short and to the point, but you gotta take it easy on us newbies sometimes, we all gotta start somewhere. :o
dld
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DoubleD said:
Disregard the answer by brickcues. Confusing information at best.

You need to refer to a sizing chart or do some math to figure out what diameter hole to drill for any thread--any change in threads per inch or diameter changes the pilot hole.
I have sizing charts, I know I asked the question of what size drill bit to use, but my MAIN question was towards the boring bars.

dld
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Just boring perfectly straight into a rod of juma, why does a 3/16 x 3/8 bar make a 0.330 hole and a 1/4 x 3/8 bar make a 0.353 hole ??
 
Michael Webb said:
I'll try to help.
Depending on the hardness of the ferrule material, that is how I determine what size I will drill the hole. Everyone is different and this is only my method.
The 4 rod materials I got were 1 phenolic, 1 G10, 1 juma, and 1 titan (sp???), haven't touched the phenolic or G10, the juma seems kinda soft and the titan is almost like pvc when I cut it and bored into it. Not sure but it LOOKS like "titan" written on the rod, it may be something else.
ex. Soft ferrules like ivorine 3 or grice, I drill the hole with and -F- drill .257
Ivory ferrules and hard material like it, I drill .265. (Don't forget the fiber pad under the tip)
What drill bit do you use for .265 ?? It IS an ivory ferrule I want to install. And as for the fiber pads, I have a bag of 50 but have never used them before. Do I actually install the fiber pad onto the ferrule first like a tip, let dry and then install my actual tip onto the fiber pad ??? What is the process for installing the fiber pads ??

If you want to have a capped ferrule, most that I have seen, have a 1/8 to 1/4" cap.
The 2 I made so far playing around, I left a .200 cap
I only use epoxy to install ferrules.
The only one I've done so far I used the 5 minute epoxy from Tiger
I don't do anything with slip on ferrule, I don't do them.
My buddies house cue I put the G10 ferrule/tip combo had a slip on ferrule and a huge tenon, so I turned the tenon down to fit my G10 ferule I already had.
For boring if you choose to bore, Get a boring bar by micro 100, I think they go down to .200 wide. They are offered in reduced shanks and longer and shorter shank length's, If you get one, try the taper shank, it will serve for everything up to 1 1/2 in length. If you are planning to bore the i.d. of stainless joints, get the reduced shank, it's more rigid.
Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

I got to do alot more studying up on the boring bars, way too many variables with them for me to immediately understand and comprehend. I have 4 different ones but they are 2 duplicates so I actualy only have 2 sizes.
 
Dirtbmw20 said:
The boring bar was set dead center of the rod and not moved. I just figured a 3/16" bar wuld bore a 3/16" hole and same for a 1/4".
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There are three possibilities I can think of:

The Juma rod was .05 out of round.

The bar wasn't centered.

The chuck is .05 out.
 
Dirtbmw20 said:
The boring bar was set dead center of the rod and not moved. I just figured a 3/16" bar wuld bore a 3/16" hole and same for a 1/4".
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Don't bother boring a 1/4 in or 3/16 in hole, use a drill. I use 3 flute solid carbide drills. They don't flex and drill an exact hole.

A 1/4 in boring bar can bore a small hole or a very large hole. Usually the 1/4 size is the smallest hole it will bore.

Search the you tube site for lathe operation videos. There are some good ones there.

A basic machine shop course at the local community college would help. There are usually some adult education courses available at night.

Your questions are so basic that I think you need to back up and learn how to run the machinery. You will be better off in the long run and safer.


good luck...... you can do it

Kim
 
whammo57 said:
Don't bother boring a 1/4 in or 3/16 in hole, use a drill. I use 3 flute solid carbide drills. They don't flex and drill an exact hole.
Thank you, exact info I need to know
A 1/4 in boring bar can bore a small hole or a very large hole. Usually the 1/4 size is the smallest hole it will bore.

Search the you tube site for lathe operation videos. There are some good ones there.

A basic machine shop course at the local community college would help. There are usually some adult education courses available at night.
Like I stated my circumstances above, one income family with a newborn baby = no time and no money for any kind of classes. I'm only about 2 hours from you, I'de have better luck driving down to Athens for a day than finding time for night classes.;)
Your questions are so basic that I think you need to back up and learn how to run the machinery. You will be better off in the long run and safer.


good luck...... you can do it

Kim
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I know and understand my questions are VERY basic, but I DO know enough to run the machinery to replace my tips which is what I bought it for. The rest that I'm doing is just playing around with the tools and supplies that came with what I bought. Don't know if I don't ask and I'll never learn if I don't just get out there and try.
 
Dirtbmw20 said:
The boring bar was set dead center of the rod and not moved. I just figured a 3/16" bar wuld bore a 3/16" hole and same for a 1/4".
Click to expand...

How do you know if the boring bar is dead center of the rod ?

A 3/16 BORING is supposed to bore a hole that already has a 3/16 hole.
Unless it's a drill-bore tool.

A reamer is the tool that cleans the hole down to specs.
Say you want a .312 hole, you can step drill up to .310 then clean the last 2 thou with a reamer.
 
JoeyInCali said:
How do you know if the boring bar is dead center of the rod ?
How about this, it was lined up to the best of my abilities, IF it was off it wasn't off by maybe .0001-.0002. I just lined the boring bar up with the center hole I drilled in the ferrule. Like I said, I thought a 3/16 boring bar would bore a 3/16 hole.
A 3/16 BORING is supposed to bore a hole that already has a 3/16 hole.
Unless it's a drill-bore tool.

A reamer is the tool that cleans the hole down to specs.
Say you want a .312 hole, you can step drill up to .310 then clean the last 2 thou with a reamer.
Click to expand...

I'm just playing around with some of the tools and materials that came with the used lathe when I bought it, what better way to learn than to just try and see what happens.
 
It sounds like you are trying to put a boring bar in the tail stock. You should be using it in the tool post. If I were you start by learning the difference between a drill, reamer, and boring bar. Learn how each one cuts. Drills and reamers have apposing cutting edges so the force is equal which makes them self centring. it also has is its cutting edges on the end. This is why when you drill a hole it's diameter is very close to that of the drill. Once your hole is started the out side diameter follows the started hole. A boring bar has cutting edges on both the front and side. If you ram a boring bar into a face of a piece the cutting forces are pulling it off centre. The only thing keeping it in line is the rigidity of the bar. The basics of hole making are. Centre drill, drill then either ream to get to exact size or use a boring bar to get your exact size. Start with the basics learn what the parts of the lathe and how they are used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_lathe
 
Canadian cue said:
It sounds like you are trying to put a boring bar in the tail stock. You should be using it in the tool post. If I were you start by learning the difference between a drill, reamer, and boring bar. Learn how each one cuts. Drills and reamers have apposing cutting edges so the force is equal which makes them self centring. it also has is its cutting edges on the end. This is why when you drill a hole it's diameter is very close to that of the drill. Once your hole is started the out side diameter follows the started hole. A boring bar has cutting edges on both the front and side. If you ram a boring bar into a face of a piece the cutting forces are pulling it off centre. The only thing keeping it in line is the rigidity of the bar. The basics of hole making are. Centre drill, drill then either ream to get to exact size or use a boring bar to get your exact size. Start with the basics learn what the parts of the lathe and how they are used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_lathe
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NO....... I'm not useing the boring bar in the tailstock, it is mounted in the toolpost. I know the basics and parts of the lathe, it's what some of the tools do that I don't know.
 
Well, I might confuse you more, but here goes:

Even though a hole is small, 3/16" or 1/4", a boring bar or reamer should get you a straight and aligned hole moreso than a drill bit. That is because a boring bar or reamer is generally stiffer than a drill bit. Drill bits wander, you can often see it as you are drilling a hole. And smaller diameter drill bits wander more than bigger bits.

Now, I did say "should" because it also depends on your ability to align your reamer or boring bar accurately in your cross slide. And, I would agree that a nice carbide drill bit will be really stiff and should give you a nice straight hole But carbide bits are in a class of their own - much different than your more common HSS drill bits.

And I agree with Joey, that a reamer/boring bar is used to true up and clean up a pre-drilled hole of nearly the same diameter.

None of the above matters so awfully much on a ferrule, other than you'd like a pretty good fit so that you get a good glue bond. But when you get around to installing your first joint pin, then alignment and straightness become paramount.

Finally, unless your reamer or boring bar are mis-marked, then they should give you a hole the size that they are marked, given that they are installed/aligned correctly. Do you have a caliper? You should, either digital or analog, doesn't matter so much as a reputable brand. Then you can use your caliper to measure your cutting tool. You might be surprised at how far off some drill bits can be, for example.

I can only imagine that your reamer/boring bar was not aligned exactly on-center with your headstock chuck centerline. That could mean the cross slide was out just a few thousands or the reamer/boring bar was at an angle to the centerline of the chuck.

Hope this helps.

Gary

P.S. I agree you've got to try things first - experience is the best teacher. When you don't get the result you expect, then come here, explain what you did, what your result was, and ask "What happened?" But yes, be careful.

P.P.S (or is it P.S.S?) Put that ivory ferrule away in a safe place until you get your procedure down pat. An elephant was killed so that you could have that little piece of ivory - don't waste it.
 
Dirtbmw20 said:
Eassssy Double D, I'm not losing any body parts here but if I got materials laying around, what better way to learn if I don't have the time or money for a class.
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First off - Double D REALLY knows about machining - so you should
pay lots of attention to his advice.

Second off - most of us have been where you are at one time.

Personally, I don't have a lot of patience with people who are not
willing to spend the time to learn how to do something right, but it sounds
like you are happy to just fool around with your own cues for the
time being, with the occasional foray into a friends cue.

IMHO - the guys suggesting you pursue additional avenues of information
are likely to be assuming you will soon want to go into cue work,
just like they did. Maybe, but maybe not.

Third off - are you $h1tting me??????

I just Googled "youtube boring lathe" and got 498,000 hits.

GO watch one.

Sometimes it takes tuff love.
Dale
 
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I think you should start at the beginning before just trying stuff with your lathe and its tools/parts. If the lathe can work on metal and wood, it can certainly tear you apart and the first clue you will have is when the deed is done. As mentioned, google is a good place to find things out.
 
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