Very Hard To Compare IMO

Johnnyt

Johnnyt

Burn all jump cues
Silver Member
I said about the same thing I'm about to say a few years ago and got quite a few flamethrowers on it, but this my take on today's players vs. players 30 years ago or more.

I'm 68 and have seen the old timers from most sports including pool. Most over 60 feel that the older players were far better than today's in all sports. I do not. In any sport natural talent must be present to get to the very top. But even if you have the natural talent it won't last long if you don't keep in shape and work on your game constantly. Today's boxing champions would have no problem with the fighters of the 1960's and before (yes I believe that Terry). They train harder today; they have better trainers, training programs, and equipment. They are just in much better shape than yesterday's champs as a whole. The same goes for baseball, football, basketball and most all-physical sports.

While it makes some difference in pool what shape you're in, it's not as crucial as the above mentioned. There are just too many things to compare them the too.

Today there is a lot of knowledge about the game on the Internet, books, and Dvd's. Then you have instructors, trainers, and coaches that weren't available to the older players.

But pool is a bit different than most, if not all other sports. Players today play on a lot tighter pockets than they did years ago. But player's years ago played on slow cloth and not the consistent rails of today. The cue shafts are better today than back in the day. I guess what I'm trying to say is to compare yesterdays pool players to today's is impossible. If someone knows a player or two that plays as good with the tight pockets and slow cloth now as the cloth and equipment he/she use to play on…please jump in here. I would say Mike S. and Buddy would be two of them, but there aren't very many more. Johnnyt
 
Neil, I believe you are old enough to have played on the slow high nap cloth if you played on 9-footers back then. I know there are a lot of things that I can do on today's fast cloth that took a great stroke to do back in the day on the slow cloth. Outside of the pockets being larger I can't think of anythiny in favor of the 1960's players. Johnnyt
 
Very hard to compare....I would honestly say impossible to compare..but I'll throw my 2 cents in..

In 1970 they used the most advanced "computers" to predict the victor between Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano. Before then and since then every sport on the planet has presented this argument.

When I said impossible to compare I meant just that. Yes, the equipment/technology and the access to information has GREATLY changed throughout the generations. My argument is, we're comparing what a player (no matter the sport) has access to today versus what was available during their respective prime.

IMO, the question should be, what would happen if the players of yore had the access to the technology we have today.

All the comparisons I've ever seen (no matter the sport) take the player of today back to the technology of yesterday. Why aren't we taking the player of yesterday and applying the technology of today??

What would Jack Nicklaus do with a Titanium driver and a milled putter?
What would Bjorn Borg do with a composite racket with computer balanced string tension?

What would Willie Hoppe do with a Moori tip?

As I read through this before I posted I don't know if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you Johnnyt, but I think we're in the same church, maybe not the same pew. :)

Thanks for everyone's time and good racks to all,

Mattie
 
mattiefingaz said:
Very hard to compare....I would honestly say impossible to compare..but I'll throw my 2 cents in..

In 1970 they used the most advanced "computers" to predict the victor between Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano. Before then and since then every sport on the planet has presented this argument.

When I said impossible to compare I meant just that. Yes, the equipment/technology and the access to information has GREATLY changed throughout the generations. My argument is, we're comparing what a player (no matter the sport) has access to today versus what was available during their respective prime.

IMO, the question should be, what would happen if the players of yore had the access to the technology we have today.

All the comparisons I've ever seen (no matter the sport) take the player of today back to the technology of yesterday. Why aren't we taking the player of yesterday and applying the technology of today??

What would Jack Nicklaus do with a Titanium driver and a milled putter?
What would Bjorn Borg do with a composite racket with computer balanced string tension?

What would Willie Hoppe do with a Moori tip?

As I read through this before I posted I don't know if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you Johnnyt, but I think we're in the same church, maybe not the same pew. :)

Thanks for everyone's time and good racks to all,

Mattie
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And I agree with what you are saying. But like you said...we will really never know either way which era had better players. Johnnyt
 
mattiefingaz said:
Very hard to compare....I would honestly say impossible to compare..but I'll throw my 2 cents in..

In 1970 they used the most advanced "computers" to predict the victor between Muhammed Ali and Rocky Marciano. Before then and since then every sport on the planet has presented this argument.

When I said impossible to compare I meant just that. Yes, the equipment/technology and the access to information has GREATLY changed throughout the generations. My argument is, we're comparing what a player (no matter the sport) has access to today versus what was available during their respective prime.

IMO, the question should be, what would happen if the players of yore had the access to the technology we have today.

All the comparisons I've ever seen (no matter the sport) take the player of today back to the technology of yesterday. Why aren't we taking the player of yesterday and applying the technology of today??

What would Jack Nicklaus do with a Titanium driver and a milled putter?
What would Bjorn Borg do with a composite racket with computer balanced string tension?

What would Willie Hoppe do with a Moori tip?

As I read through this before I posted I don't know if I'm agreeing or disagreeing with you Johnnyt, but I think we're in the same church, maybe not the same pew. :)

Thanks for everyone's time and good racks to all,

Mattie
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I don't know what Wille Hoppe would have done on todays equip with all those hi runs in 3-c now on fast /heated cloth - he would have adapted and probably made a lot of hi -runs and opted for more offense in his game
When you are good - you are good and you adapt to what ever conditions prevail.
 
I think there was more heart in sports back then then there is today.
 
Neil said:
I don't know Johnny... all my high runs were on nap cloth. I still like it better than simonis. But, yes, that is a big change in equipment that has made it much easier to play for the majority of people.

One thing to consider- back then the top players played just as good as most of the top players today, and they did it by having to have a stroke, not just bunting balls and having the cb go 3 rails for shape.
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I agree with you on this too Neil. All though I don't believe I would play much better if I was 22 years old again with this fast cloth, it is like you say easier to get arond the table with the fast stuff. I see what the tighter pockets and pro cut pockets do to my game now...and it's not pretty. Johnnyt
 
I agree with you JohnnyT. The equipment has changed and so has the game. Not too many people nowadays can appreciate the battle of the safeties you have in 14.1. Fast 9-ball and 8 ball seems to be what goes for pool these days. Blame, if you want to call it blame, TV for what new pool players are exposed to. I have played matches where I have won by playing safe, giving me ball in hand, and my opponent crying how bad his game was.
The subtle nuances are missing from the game. Young players, not all, seem to think that an 89 degree cut shot with the cue ball slamming at 100mph or a 6 rail bank shot is what it is all about.
But, these days there are more instructors, teaching and practice aids, and more info available (ie. here on the internet), than there used to be. Back in the dark ages (sic) you learned by getting your butt handed to you (and your wallet emptied). I have many learning experiences from my Navy days back in the 70's. :eek:
But I think that some of this has been better for the game. There are more top echelon players. No match is a gimme for any one player.
Among sports and games, there will always be the crowd that tries to compare now with then. I think a lot of it is just to create controversy.
 
Neil said:
Sorry Johnny, I don't want to hijack your thread, but I HAVE to rant on this statement after what happened tonight.

I go to the poolroom, and a guy that plays a little below me wants to just practice. While complaining about no action. After a couple of hours, he asks a guy to play for a hundred. The guy laughs him off because he has no shot. Later, the guy comes back and says he will play a set if he gets 8-1 odds on the money. The guy I'm playing turns it down because the odds are too high. This guy that wanted the odds can get out if the rack is wide open and easy about 3/4 of the time at best. Every shot is no warmup strokes, just hit it like a break shot and see what happens. If he got EVERY roll in the book, he might get to 4 in a race to 10. The guy I'm playing wouldn't play him!!!! Duh- the odds don't matter if you can't possibly lose! He throws away the easiest hundred he could ever make. (The guy knows me, and wouldn't consider playing me)
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In most cases the odds really don't matter if you think with your head instead of your heart or your feelings. When I bet Greyhounds I never look at the odds until I have completly handicaped the race. Then I look at the odds on the toteboard a few minutes from post. If the odds are poor for the gain, I don't bet the race. I have made a lot of money on the dogs over the last 25 years, (I wish you could ask Smorg), I'm good at it and I would take $1000 each to the dogtrack with anyone on AZ that I come out of the track with more than them. Any takers? Johnnyt Talk about hijacking my own thread geeeez.
 
I reread my post and yours Johnny and you know what...I'm going to go on the carpet and say the players of old, particularly referring to pool, but I'll extend it to most sports, are better than today.

We're still chasing records or the accolades of those that came before us. I guess I'm mainly focusing on golf and pool here. Chasing....Tiger has 69 tournament wins and is in 4th place...the men before him, DECADES ago still hold the record he's after.

Back to my Hoppe comment earlier. His high run was, if memory serves, a run of 23 in three cushion. How many times has that been challenged in 60 years??

Nap cloth, fast cloth....red dot shaft, black dot shaft...none of that matters to me.

Take the old heads and give them the access to the technology we have today...Hands down our predecessors win.

Again, Just my opinion and 2 cents.

Mattie
 
mattiefingaz said:
I reread my post and yours Johnny and you know what...I'm going to go on the carpet and say the players of old, particularly referring to pool, but I'll extend it to most sports, are better than today.

We're still chasing records or the accolades of those that came before us. I guess I'm mainly focusing on golf and pool here. Chasing....Tiger has 69 tournament wins and is in 4th place...the men before him, DECADES ago still hold the record he's after.

Back to my Hoppe comment earlier. His high run was, if memory serves, a run of 23 in three cushion. How many times has that been challenged in 60 years??

Nap cloth, fast cloth....red dot shaft, black dot shaft...none of that matters to me.

Take the old heads and give them the access to the technology we have today...Hands down our predecessors win.

Again, Just my opinion and 2 cents.

Mattie
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And you could very well be right. Or wrong. LOL. Johnnyt
 
Johnnyt said:
In most cases the odds really don't matter if you think with your head instead of your heart or your feelings. When I bet Greyhounds I never look at the odds until I have completly handicaped the race. Then I look at the odds on the toteboard a few minutes from post. If the odds are poor for the gain, I don't bet the race. I have made a lot of money on the dogs over the last 25 years, (I wish you could ask Smorg), I'm good at it and I would take $1000 each to the dogtrack with anyone on AZ that I come out of the track with more than them. Any takers? Johnnyt Talk about hijacking my own thread geeeez.
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No takers huh? Come on, a lot of you think I'm a BS artist...jump in. Johnnyt
 
Well...

...I don't really know much about the great players of old, but I saw a guy make 4 on the break in 9-ball this week, with a house stick--he's just a couple of months shy of 80 years old. I listen to everything he says. He laughs a lot at my assortment of cues and pool gadgets.

There are a lot of undiscovered good players in E. KY.
 
I think the arguement of we have tighter equipment is null. The whole point is for the ball to go in the center of the pocket,and with the old timers definate skills with the cue ball I would say they still have the advantage overall on even the tightest of tables...because they controlled the rock better and would still be shootin for the center of the pocket and no matter what table your on the center is the center. Thats just my opinion but I think it somewhat holds water, whats your guys take on that.


To me its all about the cue ball not who shoots straight....all the greats past and present shoot straight.

But yes I agree with the fact that the overall degree of skill of a pool player on average is higher now than long ago. With the spread of knowledge we all got better, but I will say this, I don't think we have seen what we can do in this sport yet. I can't wait to see what the future holds in this game of ours.

Best Wishes,
Grey Ghost
 
I hate to be the one to say this, but there is no comparison to then and now. From experience, I see the majority of today's kids as a bunch of lazy whiners who want hardly anything to do besides sit in front of the TV. When they are not watching TV, they are drinking or thinking of something else stupid to do.

When they lose at pool, it's always somebody's else's fault. Actually, no matter what it is, it's someone else's fault. They want everything given to them with no questions asked and complain when they don't get it.

I am busted my a$$ to get where I am and I am proud of it. You know, half the kids you talk to could not calculate odds if their life depended on it.

When it comes right down to it the difference is: Older people work, younger people don't. Seems pretty simple to me.
 
860 changed it for me

I remember playing on Simonis for the first time when Greg Sullivan introduced his Diamond tables at the Lexington All Stars Pro event in the early 90s.

OMG, the cue ball rolled and rolled. Very slick. and the biggest noticeable difference to me was the reaction the cue ball took on the cloth. All I had to do is use a quarter tip instead of a full tip to get the desired reaction. Speed slowed down to almost a crawl. A full 1/3 of the speed required to get the desired results was amazing. To go 3 rails for shape you just hit the cue ball hard enough to hit the 2nd rail and you still might over shoot the shape.

I thought that if the PROS were able to master this cloth compared to the NAPPY rugs they were playing on, they would be untouchable.

Some of the older pros didn't take to the new cloth and some of the newer pros just became World Beaters... Earl, Johnny, Kim and Nick took to the new cloth and tables like they were made especially for them.

I've always avoided these comparisons from a sports perspective. IMO it is just good enough to keep the chit chat going.

But, I truly believe that if Lassiter, Taylor and those legends like them could be in their mid 20s again playing on this new equipment... everyone else would be in the lower tier.

Again... IMHO
 
I'm with you, Tom...but for a different reason. I think the players from 50 years ago, were better for mainly one reason. Every time they shot in a money ball, it represented a loaf of bread, or a jug of milk...for their family. Back in those days, if you missed, your family might go hungry! That's what I call pressure. There is no pressure these days, that presents anything near that.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

Tom In Cincy said:
But, I truly believe that if Lassiter, Taylor and those legends like them could be in their mid 20s again playing on this new equipment... everyone else would be in the lower tier.

Again... IMHO
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