Video Camera

hey, I have a canon zr 600. I relly like the camera. It pretty much does everything as far as recording. It has good pic quality and nice features. It is also very easy to use.


I saw someone else on here also has a zr series. I have a question to anyone that can help. I have no problems using this camera and making recordings and pics. I also have no prob uploading pics to my comp.

I cannot seem to get video on my comp though. I have the canon software, but it won't upload the video. Is this because I need a video capture card or something? I have a pc. Also would this moviemaker be better, where can I get this? Does sombody have a good link to get it free?

Any and all help would be appreciated, thanks.

BTW- I don't want to hijack the thread. If this is interfering with this thread, I will gladly move it to another.

Thanks.

JW
 
Steve Lipsky said:
Aaarrrghhhh! :)

OK, how about this hard drive model? Key question: Is it harder to do editing? If editing is not a problem, then I'd definitely rather go to hard drive. I don't want to go the firewire route and changing tapes all the time does sound like a pain.

http://www.circuitcity.com/ccd/productDetail.do?oid=204258#CustomerRatings

If I didn't have all of you helping me, I'd have given up by now, that's for sure.

- Steve
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I didn't read the thread on why the minidv was better so I don't know how easy it is with the minidv.

with the hd, I can dl easily using usb port and once it is on the hard drive of the computer I can do what i want with it. I can delete sections. I uploades a lot of small runs just cutting out of a long match I downloaded and then changing the format to whatever I wanted . DVD for dvd player, mp4 for ipod, avi for uploading, and there's lots of formats I don't even know about. the convenience of the hard drive sold it for me.

For our purposes I don"t think you need the hd or real fine quality. As long as you can see the patterns and the balls.
 
Dave Nelson said:
Steve

Go hard drive. For one thing, if you record 1 hour on tape, it takes 1 hour to transfer to your computer. If you record 1 hour on a hard drive, it takes about 5 min. to transfer to your computer. Hard drive and high definition is the way to go. In my opinion. There are far more knowelable people here than me. Listen to them.

Dave Nelson
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I completely agree. Im into easy and convenient. I find harddrive cameras very easy. You record everything and transfer, just like you would on a digital picture camera. And editing is just as easy with both. The only draw back for you is the files will be larger because they are HD. You can change the compression in the camera to a lower setting and the picture will still look great, you will have tons of record time and your files will be much smaller than full quality HD.
 
ive been reading this very interesting thread.

and i came up with this with a little research.

JVC Everio GZ-MG335 Camcorder

has a HardDisk of 30gb (360 model has one of 60GB), records in mpeg-2, has a docking station with firewire aswell as USB, has a laser Touch control bar and costs... around 375$

seem like this could be something for you steve?

if you can afford it; sony HDR-sr11 , its just alot more expensive.

seem that all HD cams seem to have a problem for easy editing...
If they record in mpeg2 shouldnt it be easy to just copy it onto your computer and use a program like virtualdub (free and been using it for a long time) to just do whatever you want with it?
 
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I use a Samsung HMX10C which shoots in a variant of HD on flash memory. These files are easy to work with, but it does seem to tax my computer a bit (older laptop, 1.8GHz Pentium M).

Most hard drive high-def camcorders use AVCHD, which I've heard is time consuming, if not difficult, to work with. This standard is a recent development (3 or 4 years old) and requires an equally new computer to edit at a reasonable speed.

Tape-based camcorders use HDV, which is less taxing on a computer system to work with since it's been around for a while.

Poolpro: You may need a firewire connection to transfer the video. Most computers don't come with a firewire port, so you may need to buy an extra card for this. Moviemaker comes free with Windows XP, at least. Start>Programs>Accessories>Entertainment>Windows Movie Maker.
 
My Sony hard drive cam uses only usb and my Cannon tape drive uses only Firewire, unless I am missing something.

The Sony tries to steer me to avch but I can bypass it and go to other programs.

Dave Nelson
 
it's an interesting and informative thread which should be useful for many users in future. I would only like to put a remark that the posters should try to define clearly when they refer to HD as a "hard disk" and when as "high definition", otherwise it becomes confusing. Maybe one should type HDV when talking about "high definition video" camera, leaving HD for "hard disk". Or even avoid HD at all and opt for full HDD (hard disk drive).
 
Solartje said:
... JVC Everio GZ-MG335 Camcorder
...
if you can afford it; sony HDR-sr11 , its just alot more expensive.

seem that all HD cams seem to have a problem for easy editing...
If they record in mpeg2 shouldnt it be easy to just copy it onto your computer and use a program like virtualdub (free and been using it for a long time) to just do whatever you want with it?
Click to expand...
In one on-line review site, the JVC is criticized for "typical low-budget video." I have no idea whether that is a fair statement. I see that other editor comments are contradicted by most of the user comments. I just bought a Sony handycam with 30GB of hard drive. It comes with software that can do very little other than allow viewing on your PC -- "Picture Motion Browser" -- essentially worthless. Other than that, it seems to work fine. It has a 40X optical zoom.

I'll have to look into virtualdub. Does anyone else have favorite software for video? For viewing I would like single frame advance, forward and reverse play at various speeds, and the ability to return to a spot fairly easily.
 
Bob Jewett said:
In one on-line review site, the JVC is criticized for "typical low-budget video." I have no idea whether that is a fair statement. I see that other editor comments are contradicted by most of the user comments. I just bought a Sony handycam with 30GB of hard drive. It comes with software that can do very little other than allow viewing on your PC -- "Picture Motion Browser" -- essentially worthless. Other than that, it seems to work fine. It has a 40X optical zoom.

I'll have to look into virtualdub. Does anyone else have favorite software for video? For viewing I would like single frame advance, forward and reverse play at various speeds, and the ability to return to a spot fairly easily.
Click to expand...

In the camera world, JVC in general is looked down upon. Slightly lower quality and typically dont last as long. But any camera under $2k is "typical low-budget video".

For Steve's purpose, pretty much any brand would be fine.

I personally stick with Panasonic, Canon, and Sony.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I'll have to look into virtualdub. Does anyone else have favorite software for video? For viewing I would like single frame advance, forward and reverse play at various speeds, and the ability to return to a spot fairly easily.
Click to expand...

I have tried to explain the inherent problems with mpeg video. These areas you mention are exactly the kinds of issues editing and viewing mpeg video has trouble with. Hence the problem with the format. The fact that it's a hard drive camcorder or a miniDVD style camcorder in and of itself is not the issue. The issue is that these camcorder types use the mpeg (highly compressed) video codec which allows hrs of video to fit on their respective medias.

Again, mpeg video is not frame accurate video. It relies on what is called GOP or group of pictures. This compression format by design eliminates certain frames of full video.

For the ability to analyze frame by frame, forward an backward, fast and slow motion, mpeg based camcorders are not the hot setup. Again, MiniDV is a much better choice for standard definition frame accurate video.

http://tangentsoft.net/video/mpeg/edit.html


http://www.myvideoproblems.com/Tutorials/Difference_betwwen_Mpeg_and_DVAVI_files.htm


The second link may help you decide which programs offer the best solutions to the many mpeg editing idiosyncrasies that lurk.
 
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3andstop said:
... The second link may help you decide which programs offer the best solutions to the many mpeg editing idiosyncrasies that lurk.
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I've heard good things about Womble, but I don't know how it is as a viewer.

But it seems to me that if the editor is able to reconstruct the full frames between the i frames, then it could let you edit (cut among) the result. I assume that the MPEG standard allows uneven spacing of the i frames as long as they don't get too dense.

Nero's Showtime at least lets me do start/stop with the space bar and single frame advance with the T key. A full-screen-width slider allows you to go to any location (perhaps at the start of a GOP). I was hoping something better for viewing was available.
 
Bob I'm not familiar with Nero's Showtime with respect to how it handles mpeg video. The stops may in fact be to each "i" frame.

Womble ( I believe but don't know for sure) has the ability to transcode the mepeg stream to DV which is frame accurate, allow you to make your edits and then re-encode the stream to mpeg. It ( I believe) also can do GOP accurate edits.

Transcoding back and forth of course comes at the cost of quality and computer resources.

I have thousands of dollars in video editing and video conversion softwares as well as hardwares.

One reason I'm so passionate about the difficulties involved with quality and trouble free mpeg editing is because it caused me to pull my hair out to the point of madness until I bit the bullet and went completely DV-AVI and firewire based until the last final cut of my editing, which is when I encoded the final product to the viewing format (mpeg-2)

Once I did that, there were absolutely no more problems.

I'm not sure to what extent everyone is interested in editing and effecting these digital videos, so I wouldn't categorically state that it won't work, only that it certainly isn't the "one rail" whenever possible method. :)

If you already have an mpeg based camcorder, then trying the demo's of the editing programs is the best bet.

For viewing, again, honestly don't know. I do believe the mpeg encoder/decoder used by Nero and similar programs will stop you at "i" frames. I'll try to look into this for you.
 
mnorwood said:
I am going to buy a mac laptop soon. Is there any camcorder that interfaces well with a mac?
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All the video codecs are cross platform. It all boils down to your intended use of the camcorder both initial and future. Whether you want standard definition or high definition video. I do believe that firewire is available on just about all Mac computers. (not that its more than a 25 dollar addition anyway)
 
I have an mpeg camera, the Canon HF10. When I bring the files into my computer (mac), Final Cut converts the files to a quicktime file (intermediate codec). When they are on my computer, I can open the files up in quicktime player and step frame by frame through the footage with zero problems. The only time this would become a problem is if Im filming in "interlace" mode (two half frames or "fields" blended together to make one frame)

I personally shoot in progressive, I have solid frames that I can step through frame by frame, forward, backward, whatever.

As far as an editing program, I use final cut pro, but final cut elements, adobe premiere elements (both fairly cheap) handle the footage very well and you are able to do pretty much anything you want.

I too do this on a professional level. Of course, I dont use mpeg video for a Reebok commercial, but for personal videos with my wife and kid, I do. And I can honestly say, its easy for me to work with and do whatever I please.
 
mnorwood said:
I am going to buy a mac laptop soon. Is there any camcorder that interfaces well with a mac?
Click to expand...

Yes, all camcorders work fine on a mac. Apple has a fairly good editing program pre installed on the computer.

The cool thing about the mac laptops is the come with a built in webcam and you can record videos straight from it. From time to time Ill set my computer up on a chair infront of a table and use it to film my 4 ball high runs.
 
For editing, ive been using virtualdub for years and here is why:

1ste: i know nothing about video editing. Virtualdub took me one day to master.
2: Its totally free, you dont have to purchase it after 10 days or whatever.
you can find add-ons, information, manuels all for free on the internet
3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PnNUxpqbMw here is what my limited skills did to a video i shooted with my wifes digital camera. The program has so many filters (just cool effects) that you can do whatever you want with it.
4: you can speed up, slow down as much as you want. you can watch frame by frame each shot. (ive been using it to analyse breakshots in slowmotions from pro matches) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Txpzb8wpuKY was a slowmotion on eurosport. I slowed the frames down on virtualdub, just kept the 2 seconds that where interesting and let it play in replay for 10 minuts. You will learn ALOT.
5: If i get it right: you can import pritty much any video type you can imagine, (avi, dvix, xvid, mpeg, etc..) one its opened in the program, it just works like if it wasnt compresed. Same thing with the audio. when you are finished editing the video, you then can choose whatever resolution, whatever compression, whatever frames / sec you want. (handy to keep youtube files under 10mb).
6:Its SUPER easy to put subtitles on (i use it for straight pool to add a counter on the video.) you watch the video and just click your mouse each time a ball is potted (the program then marks the time when you clicked, and afterwards you just write down (1ball) at mark1, (2ball) at mark 2 etc...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4bRTsGts1E here is an example.
7: Ive never tried other programs like adobe etc, that many semi pro or pro's use, because... so i can't say if they are better, but ive never had anything virtualdub coudn't do and its 100% free :grin-square:

I think for the camera's the amount of pixels is really less important then the lightning anytime. Lightning has been my bigest problem.
 
Here is a little video I shot with my mpeg camera. No post production was done with this other than the motion tracking (which could not have been done without the ability to step frame by frame through the clip).

http://www.andrewcleary.com/normal.mov

The picture looks great, it was easy to handle and its pretty damn funny as well.


P.S. - I think we are getting a little off topic with formating issues. Has Steve picked a camera yet?
 
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Macs and camcorders

mnorwood said:
I am going to buy a mac laptop soon. Is there any camcorder that interfaces well with a mac?
Click to expand...

Apple's website contains information about what camcorders work well with Macs. Look for the sections about Final Cut Pro, their movie editing software. (Sorry I don't have the specific URL, but start at www.apple.com and you'll find it easily enough, I think.)
 
Bob Jewett said:
Nero's Showtime at least lets me do start/stop with the space bar and single frame advance with the T key. A full-screen-width slider allows you to go to any location (perhaps at the start of a GOP). I was hoping something better for viewing was available.
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Bob, I spoke to a videographer acquaintance of mine with 40+ yrs experience in the field. He is strongly into digital video now. I asked him about Nero's Showtime and it's ability to display frame by frame accurate stop points.

He couldn't say for sure if the decoding algorithm allowed for buffering of all frames. He did say that it was less important than a bigger consideration. He made an analogy that he suggested I share with interested parties. He said keep in mind this is ever so basic an over simplification and greatly underplayed in terms of complexity of the actual video compression.

He said consider that you are a camcorder, and your job is to produce an mpeg video from what you are looking at and recording as it happens.

He said consider you are looking at a deck of playing cards in your hand face down and you are flipping them onto the table face up.

Once you see an Ace flip up on the table, you discard any subsequent ace you see into the waste basket. You do the same for all the 2s -3s - 4s - and so on throughout the deck. After all the redundant card numbers have been thrown out, what you are left with on the table is your recorded mpeg video.

Now, even if you play back your video on software that will allow you to see each saved frame, you will never see the ones in the waste basket since they never existed in the original recording.

He did say that it is very important to consider how much definition you really are concerned with and how much editing and fine tuning you are concerned with also in choosing a format.

But bottom line is mpeg is a presentation format not an editing format. Discarded digital information by the "on the fly" encoding to mpeg by the camcorder cannot be brought back in its entirety even if frame by frame viewing of the product is done.

I think its quite an overstatement, and probably not a concern for lots of folks as explained. There are however other issues like audio and video running out of sync after GOPs are edited since those streams are "muxed" differently than dv-avi type 2 video.

Very complicated stuff, that IMO wasn't worth having to work around when other solutions existed. It may not be anything of an issue at all for simple edits and playbacks.

I hope some of this info at least begins to touch on the differences and nuances in various video formats regarding standard definition digital video.
 
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