Videoing Students During Lessons

[FranCrimi]

One of the things I learned while working my way through the BCA Instructor Program was the use of the 'before and after' videoing of the student during a lesson.

I never quite took to that. I have nothing against using video as a learning tool during a lesson. In fact, I think it can be most useful at the right time.

But this whole before and after thing seems to me to be self-indulgent on the part of the teacher. Maybe I'm missing something here. I know some instructors here believe in breaking out the camera first thing, even before getting to know who the player they're working with really is.

Of course players have flaws. That's why they come for help. Is this whole thing of showing someone how poorly they may be playing before the lessons starts, and then how much better they are, now that they've gotten proper help, appropriate?

Yes, I know those instructors will argue that it's easier when players can see what they're doing wrong. But is it really that helpful, or does it wind up making the player even more uncomfortable than they already are?

I always bring my camera with me to a lesson, but I take it out only when I feel I need to show the player something specific about what they're doing. And even then, I make sure they're totally OK with it. Sometimes I don't even use it at all.

Is this whole videoing the student thing an example of technology gone overboard?

 

[Spimp13]

Yes, I know those instructors will argue that it's easier when players can see what they're doing wrong. But is it really that helpful, or does it wind up making the player even more uncomfortable than they already are?

I think for the most part people aren't uncomfortable doing it. They came to the class to improve and realize it is just one tool to show them what flaws they might have in their stroke.

Also some people have a closed mind to begin with so even if an instructor tells them you are doing "this" incorrectly...they don't believe it. Well bust out the ol video tape and then they may say "oh....I guess I am doing that"!

 

[EasyEJL]

no, I think videos are important. What makes it valuable is that you can refer back to both your before + after videos at any time in the future. If your progress starts to slow you can tape yourself playing now, and compare it to where you were. Its also something that helps make the process objective instead of subjective. An instructor says "you keep turning to the outside on your feet" and its hard to even be sure exactly he means. With the videos, there isn't a question.

 

[FranCrimi]

Yes, I know those instructors will argue that it's easier when players can see what they're doing wrong. But is it really that helpful, or does it wind up making the player even more uncomfortable than they already are?

I think for the most part people aren't uncomfortable doing it. They came to the class to improve and realize it is just one tool to show them what flaws they might have in their stroke.

Also some people have a closed mind to begin with so even if an instructor tells them you are doing "this" incorrectly...they don't believe it. Well bust out the ol video tape and then they may say "oh....I guess I am doing that"!

Exactly. That's one of the cases when I would use video. But my point was about the whole before and after thing. Is that appropriate, even before getting to know the player?

 

[EasyEJL]

Exactly. That's one of the cases when I would use video. But my point was about the whole before and after thing. Is that appropriate, even before getting to know the player?

what does knowing a player have to do with documenting his basic fundamentals?

 

[Mark Avlon]

Video is an essential tool when working with students with poor mechanics, or a poor or non-existent pre-shot routine. Usually my students aren't aware that they drop their elbow, have a death grip, or what they are looking at when the shoot. Video clearly shows them what they don't know.

The after video is important to show the student how well they are improving in a short period of time. Their improvement in pocketing balls before and after the lesson correlates tightly to the improvements they see on the video, which confirms to them why good mechanics are so important, and motivates them to continue working on them.

Video alone is not guarantee it will be effective. Knowing what to record, how it's reviewed, and knowing how to critique it are key. Using motion analysis software to simultaneously record multiple perspectives, to single step frames, play cineloops, and annotate on the video, is extremely valuable to get the most information from the video. StrokeAnalyzer is a motion analysis program tailored to pool that does the job very well for a reasonable cost. It's very useful to instructors as well as players working alone. I don't work for them or sell their products. It's's just a great tool that instructors should be using.

Sure, teachers can teach mechanics without video, and students can learn without video, but video is so powerful a tool, and is so available, there is no reason not to use it. Students who have a choice should go with the instructor who uses video.

 

[FranCrimi]

what does knowing a player have to do with documenting his basic fundamentals?

Well, I think that part of helping a player is understanding who they are and how they learn, including understanding what they feel their needs are and how far out of their comfort zones they are willing to travel, at least initially.

So, while documenting them at first sight may seem innocent enough to some, to others, it can be the cause of anxiety. And even though the player may be willing to put on a good face and tough it out, it's painful for them.

 

[EasyEJL]

Hmm maybe. I would think that someone who is that sensitive probably would find themselves nearly unable to play pool in a public setting either though.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Video is great if they want to for a remote lesson. I agree that otherwise it does tend to unnerve the student.

I start new lessons with a disclaimer that I need the player to be themself; if they normally take 3 or 4 practice strokes before a shot, I don't want them to take 6 to try to impress me as I need to learn their "real" game and video can be an obstacle as you wrote.

There are good substitutes you probably already use for video "needs", for example, for the student who is very sure they don't pop their head up while shooting. I ask if I may hold a cue stick two inches above their head while shooting and with the next several shots they "get it" because they rise gently or not at all in lieu of hitting the stick. A similar tool is a private mirror, for when someone swears their cue stick is low and level and they are hoisted in the air. "Look at your reflection" is fine and can substitute for a video IMO.

 

[FranCrimi]

Hmm maybe. I would think that someone who is that sensitive probably would find themselves nearly unable to play pool in a public setting either though.

Yes, there are some who won't compete. Many are borderline. There are a lot more than you probably imagine, though.

 

[ENGLISH!]

I'll start out by declaring that I am not a certifed pool instructor.

However, I have coached & taught the 3 major sports & golf from 5 year olds to young adults. IMHO it is much more important for a player to 'feel' a difference than it is for them to see it. One does not watch themselves play. They play & feel it physically.

A ball coach does not always have a camera & video at hand & must be adept at spotting faults live & in real time. As a coach, one can show a player the 'correct' or 'better' way to do something & for some that is all that it takes but for others they must be put into the position(s) of actaully doing it to 'feel' the difference. Feeling the difference works for almost everyone IMHO.

There is no cookie cutter approach that will work for every individual & everyone's mechanics does not have to be exactly the same to get the job done efficiently. We are all individuals with different bodies. In fact it has been my experience through coaching that everyone is simply not capable of performing certain tasks in the exact same manner. It is the result that is important & not so much how that result is obtained. We are individuals with different bodies & different capabilties.

The only time, in my experience where video was helpful to me was in golf. That is because the swing is so fast with so many angles & positions of so many different parts, that it was an advantage. However, not so much for the player but for me as the coach. Showing the player a video almost never resulted in getting the desired change, but making them feel the change is what delivered results.

That being said, a picture is worth a thousand words. When a player would say, I am doing that or I feel like I am doing that, then showing them that they were in fact not doing what they felt they were doing was very valuable, because they then would be willing to accept being put into the postion they thought or felt that they were in, when in fact they were not.

There are many fly by night, so to speak golf instructors that use video as a crutch or as a means to give them false credibility & they can't teach a lick. Then there are others that would not know how to turn on video camera & can improve your swing & take maybe 6 strokes off of your score after a one(1) hour lesson or even less than that. All it might take is one (1) minute & the rest of the hour is just re-inforcing it. That being said & to be completely honest there are some very good instuctors that do use video, but as I said more as an aid to them than the actual player but it can at times, as I said also help the player.

The pool stroke is no where near the complexity of the golf swing, neither in the moving parts nor the speed.

So Fran, to answer your question, IMHO, for the most part the use of video with regards to teaching any physical task is, again IMHO, over rated & more time consuming unless the player is of a stubborn nature & must be 'shown' because they do not believe the 'coach'. When I came upon that I would simply say, 'what, do you believe I'm lieing to you for some reason, do you believe I'm not seeing what I'm telling you I'm seeing?' That usually did the trick & also established a good faith bound between player & coach.

That is a rather long winded response to what seems like a simple question & I'm not finished yet.

I also found that sometimes players did not swing the same when they knew that they were being videoed. I would have to tell them that & ask, 'What are you doing, trying to look good for the camera? Stop that and make your normal swing'.

Just some food for thought were video is concerned.

Regards &

 

[boyersj]

I would like to comment based on my own belief and experience. As many of those who follow this forum know I had a lesson about three weeks ago. My personal opinion is the video showed me things I did not realize I was doing. It also helped me see the things I did correctly.

I think that is real important aspect during the review. An instructor needs to be able to address flaws, but also encourage and applaud a student.

I am extremely glad I got the video review at the beginning. I personally am one who wants to get straight to a task. Maybe everyone isn't the same, but since I was paying for a lesson - I don't want to feel time is being wasted.

By seeing "the real truth" from the very beginning and then discussing the various aspects of the shooting process, I could understand why did I miss easy shots? Why do I struggle with (fill in the blank)? As the player, I still get to chose what I work on, but my paid instructor I hope feels two very important things:

1: They should show me everything that I should consider working on to improve.
2: Accept my decision on what I want or believe I can improve.

The before video allows the student to revisit and work on additional items without requiring another lesson to cover that which was already covered. The next lesson can go into new material or provide alternative ways to improve material already covered.

 

[row21097]

video analytics software

This is an intresting thread for me. I recently retired and comitted myself to resurecting my game. My home table is a 9' Lehmacher and I was looking for video analytics software along the same line as that being used by golf pros. I looked and considered:

Dartfish: Of those I have seen on youtube this is my favorite but my focus and use is strictly personal and the cost $1K is more than I was willing to spend.

strokeanalyzer: they offer a free trial and I did use it but had some technical issues.

Prov1: I bought the home version of this for $39 but its major drawback is you cant save the video with notes / drawings etc. I think the advanced version is similar in price to the dartfish.

My question for the instructors is: do you use analytics software? what brand? and what part of the pre-shot, alignment, stroke etc. do you feel lends itself best to this kind of analysis.


Thanks
Bert

 

[Scott Lee]

A superb example of "new school" thinking! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Video is an essential tool when working with students with poor mechanics, or a poor or non-existent pre-shot routine. Usually my students aren't aware that they drop their elbow, have a death grip, or what they are looking at when the shoot. Video clearly shows them what they don't know.

The after video is important to show the student how well they are improving in a short period of time. Their improvement in pocketing balls before and after the lesson correlates tightly to the improvements they see on the video, which confirms to them why good mechanics are so important, and motivates them to continue working on them.

Video alone is not guarantee it will be effective. Knowing what to record, how it's reviewed, and knowing how to critique it are key. Using motion analysis software to simultaneously record multiple perspectives, to single step frames, play cineloops, and annotate on the video, is extremely valuable to get the most information from the video. StrokeAnalyzer is a motion analysis program tailored to pool that does the job very well for a reasonable cost. It's very useful to instructors as well as players working alone. I don't work for them or sell their products. It's's just a great tool that instructors should be using.

Sure, teachers can teach mechanics without video, and students can learn without video, but video is so powerful a tool, and is so available, there is no reason not to use it. Students who have a choice should go with the instructor who uses video.

 

[Scott Lee]

One of the reasons behind the initial video analysis is for the instructor and student to be able to "see" exactly what the student does, in the natural course of their setup and delivery process. As Steve noted, the instructor needs to be a cheerleader (pointing out things the students already does well naturally), as well as identifying flaws in their process that may cause inconsistency in their competitive process. Once those things are identified, we can help the student to "find" their own natural stroke process, and fine-tune it, through disciplined practice (with set goals, and ways to measure success), which eventually gives them the diagnostic tools to fix their own game, when it's "off"!

The end-of-school video allows the student to see their own immediate progress, which gives them motivation to continue building on what they learned from the instructor...which takes a certain amount of time, for everyone. One of the biggest drawbacks to getting better, after instruction, is trying to implement changes into one's 'competitive process' too soon (before the changed process has become natural). When that happens, usually in a competitive situation that the player is already comfortable with (almost always in front of their peers), the same old errors pop up, causing the player to miss shots that they would ordinarily not miss (even with their 'old' process), and ego gets in the way..."I played better my old way, so I'm going back to that...this is too much work!" I'd like to note that Steve is already a very skilled player, who now has the tools to become a highly skilled instructor, which, in turn, can only raise his own playing ability, in the long run. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I would like to comment based on my own belief and experience. As many of those who follow this forum know I had a lesson about three weeks ago. My personal opinion is the video showed me things I did not realize I was doing. It also helped me see the things I did correctly.

I think that is real important aspect during the review. An instructor needs to be able to address flaws, but also encourage and applaud a student.

I am extremely glad I got the video review at the beginning. I personally am one who wants to get straight to a task. Maybe everyone isn't the same, but since I was paying for a lesson - I don't want to feel time is being wasted.

By seeing "the real truth" from the very beginning and then discussing the various aspects of the shooting process, I could understand why did I miss easy shots? Why do I struggle with (fill in the blank)? As the player, I still get to chose what I work on, but my paid instructor I hope feels two very important things:

1: They should show me everything that I should consider working on to improve.
2: Accept my decision on what I want or believe I can improve.

The before video allows the student to revisit and work on additional items without requiring another lesson to cover that which was already covered. The next lesson can go into new material or provide alternative ways to improve material already covered.

 

[JoeW]

This will take a minute to explain but the content may be of use.
Several years ago a fellow named Irwin Sarason was recognized for his work in video modeling therapy. He worked with delinquents. Sarason and his group taught the delinquents how to talk with their girlfriend’s father, how to interact with a police officer who stopped them after curfew, and how to interact in an employment interview. The delinquents thought that they were competent in all these things. Confederates role played the scenes and then asked the delinquents if they could do it as well. The delinquents thought they could. They were videotaped pre training and saw how poorly they performed in these situations. This motivated them to learn. With successive trials the delinquent did learn better ways of interacting.

Following the initial treatments delinquents exposed to Video Modeling did act out more than other delinquents.

Five years later the delinquents who participated in the videotaped role modeling remembered what they had been taught better than delinquents treated in other ways. In addition, the delinquents were more competent in these areas and they had lower overall recidivism rates. I forget which national agency, but one of them recognized Sarason and his group for one of the most successful attempts at rehabilitation. Their success rate was quite high but I do not remember the numbers.

Later I introduced video modeling therapy in my practice with behavior disordered people and found it to be a major tool for helping people learn: 1. They are not as good as think they are; 2. Motivating them to change; and 3 helping them to master news ways of behaving.

My experience with videotaping at a pool school was that it was an effective tool that helped me see my flaws and what was needed to improve my playing ability. The instructor’s comments were positive with suggestions for improvement. This style of teaching, which begins with positive comments were very useful.

As one who has used video modeling therapy extensively I find it to be especially helpful with making behavioral changes. People often (if not usually) have an exaggerated opinion of their abilities. Videotaping is a form of self-confrontation. It must be handled with sensitivity because it usually angers people when they see how poorly they actually perform (relative to their own expectation). When the anger subsides the individual is motivated to learn new ways.

Seeing one’s improvement is indeed gratifying and the behavioral changes have a lasting impact according to Sarason and others.
I suspect that many pool instructors have not learned to use this technique to the extent that it can be used and for the significant benefits that can be obtained.

Here is a study of gymnastics when learning some moderately difficult skills. In general, it is quite effective for those with the ability to perform.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790943/

Here is a study of putting and the complications

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/25216222/effects-positive-video-modeling-during-warm-up

Much work remains to be done in this area. It is potentially an effective tool for teaching. However, the psychology of its use needs to be well understood to obtain the full benefits. The way it is currently used (based on my experience) is acceptable and probably beneficial.

 

[BeiberLvr]

Before and after videos provide tangible evidence of improvement.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I think that video is the easiest, most direct, and most convincing way to point out flaws in a student's fundamentals. While it is possible to show nearly all flaws without video, those demonstrations are often too indirect and contrived to be convincing. (Mark lines on the table, have a hat rack at the height of the elbow, set up barriers to either side of the cue stick near the joint....)

Not all problems require video. One student had a problem of gripping the cue about 3 hands forward of vertical. A resulting problem was lack of power on shots that required it. Simply pointing out the non-verticality in a static pose was convincing for that student and a few stroke shots with a new grip somewhat farther back reinforced the point. That student worked the new grip into his game by the next lesson. With some other student, more direct convincing may have been required.

I have not experienced negative reaction from students during video feedback other than some consternation at how bad their form is compared to how they thought they played. Most of the video I've done has been in group lessons of 3-5. Often the students will say that the video was the most useful part of the course and they want to have another video done after work on their problems.

 

[krupa]

Hmm maybe. I would think that someone who is that sensitive probably would find themselves nearly unable to play pool in a public setting either though.

That doesn't stop us from trying though!

As a person who sometimes takes lessons (well... once in the past year) and who hates cameras, I gotta make my plea. If you pull out a camera and your student says, "I'm not really comfortable in front of cameras", please just put it back and go to plan B. To be blunt, if you do anything but put the camera away, you are a rude and insensitive person.

If it's a new student and you give him or her time to get to know you (and that can still be sometime in the first lesson maybe... depends on the person) the camera may still be an option.

-matthew
(Paid for by Introverts for Social Equality and Understanding)

 

[Scott Lee]

That's my experience as well, Bob!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Often the students will say that the video was the most useful part of the course and they want to have another video done after work on their problems.