Videoing Students During Lessons

[randyg]

This is an intresting thread for me. I recently retired and comitted myself to resurecting my game. My home table is a 9' Lehmacher and I was looking for video analytics software along the same line as that being used by golf pros. I looked and considered:

Dartfish: Of those I have seen on youtube this is my favorite but my focus and use is strictly personal and the cost $1K is more than I was willing to spend.

strokeanalyzer: they offer a free trial and I did use it but had some technical issues.

Prov1: I bought the home version of this for $39 but its major drawback is you cant save the video with notes / drawings etc. I think the advanced version is similar in price to the dartfish.

My question for the instructors is: do you use analytics software? what brand? and what part of the pre-shot, alignment, stroke etc. do you feel lends itself best to this kind of analysis.


Thanks
Bert

The best version of Stroke Analyzer.

I will be close to your area all next week.

randyg

 

[Okie]

This is an intresting thread for me. I recently retired and comitted myself to resurecting my game. My home table is a 9' Lehmacher and I was looking for video analytics software along the same line as that being used by golf pros. I looked and considered:

Dartfish: Of those I have seen on youtube this is my favorite but my focus and use is strictly personal and the cost $1K is more than I was willing to spend.

strokeanalyzer: they offer a free trial and I did use it but had some technical issues.

Prov1: I bought the home version of this for $39 but its major drawback is you cant save the video with notes / drawings etc. I think the advanced version is similar in price to the dartfish.

My question for the instructors is: do you use analytics software? what brand? and what part of the pre-shot, alignment, stroke etc. do you feel lends itself best to this kind of analysis.


Thanks
Bert

You might want to try Kinovea. It is free software.

http://www.kinovea.org/

Ken

 

[FranCrimi]

This will take a minute to explain but the content may be of use.
Several years ago a fellow named Irwin Sarason was recognized for his work in video modeling therapy. He worked with delinquents. Sarason and his group taught the delinquents how to talk with their girlfriend’s father, how to interact with a police officer who stopped them after curfew, and how to interact in an employment interview. The delinquents thought that they were competent in all these things. Confederates role played the scenes and then asked the delinquents if they could do it as well. The delinquents thought they could. They were videotaped pre training and saw how poorly they performed in these situations. This motivated them to learn. With successive trials the delinquent did learn better ways of interacting.

Following the initial treatments delinquents exposed to Video Modeling did act out more than other delinquents.

Five years later the delinquents who participated in the videotaped role modeling remembered what they had been taught better than delinquents treated in other ways. In addition, the delinquents were more competent in these areas and they had lower overall recidivism rates. I forget which national agency, but one of them recognized Sarason and his group for one of the most successful attempts at rehabilitation. Their success rate was quite high but I do not remember the numbers.

Later I introduced video modeling therapy in my practice with behavior disordered people and found it to be a major tool for helping people learn: 1. They are not as good as think they are; 2. Motivating them to change; and 3 helping them to master news ways of behaving.

My experience with videotaping at a pool school was that it was an effective tool that helped me see my flaws and what was needed to improve my playing ability. The instructor’s comments were positive with suggestions for improvement. This style of teaching, which begins with positive comments were very useful.

As one who has used video modeling therapy extensively I find it to be especially helpful with making behavioral changes. People often (if not usually) have an exaggerated opinion of their abilities. Videotaping is a form of self-confrontation. It must be handled with sensitivity because it usually angers people when they see how poorly they actually perform (relative to their own expectation). When the anger subsides the individual is motivated to learn new ways.

Seeing one’s improvement is indeed gratifying and the behavioral changes have a lasting impact according to Sarason and others.
I suspect that many pool instructors have not learned to use this technique to the extent that it can be used and for the significant benefits that can be obtained.

Here is a study of gymnastics when learning some moderately difficult skills. In general, it is quite effective for those with the ability to perform.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2790943/

Here is a study of putting and the complications

http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/25216222/effects-positive-video-modeling-during-warm-up

Much work remains to be done in this area. It is potentially an effective tool for teaching. However, the psychology of its use needs to be well understood to obtain the full benefits. The way it is currently used (based on my experience) is acceptable and probably beneficial.

Yes, I can see how the combination of video modeling with video feedback can be helpful in certain circumstances, especially with children. I think where I'm a bit leery is the psychology of it, which I agree, should not be taken lightly.

 

[RadicalOne]

Another recommendation for Kinovea

This is an intresting thread for me. I recently retired and comitted myself to resurecting my game. My home table is a 9' Lehmacher and I was looking for video analytics software along the same line as that being used by golf pros. I looked and considered:

Dartfish: Of those I have seen on youtube this is my favorite but my focus and use is strictly personal and the cost $1K is more than I was willing to spend.

strokeanalyzer: they offer a free trial and I did use it but had some technical issues.

Prov1: I bought the home version of this for $39 but its major drawback is you cant save the video with notes / drawings etc. I think the advanced version is similar in price to the dartfish.

My question for the instructors is: do you use analytics software? what brand? and what part of the pre-shot, alignment, stroke etc. do you feel lends itself best to this kind of analysis.


Thanks
Bert

Bert,

Ken mentioned a very viable option - it's called Kinovea and it's free/open source software designed for sports video analysis. (http://www.kinovea.org/en/).

I have experience with all of the software titles you mentioned and was trained by Randy G. in the use of StrokeAnalyzer. For ease of use and specific applications for analyzing a pool stroke, StrokeAnalyzer is very good. However, if you're willing to deal with a little bit of a learning curve, you can have a lot more options and capabilities with Kinovea.

I like to use High Speed live capture, which doesn't work well with some of the other software. Granted - you need a good/newer computer, decent processor, USB-3, video cards, memory, etc. to get the best results, but if you have a good system the things you can do with Kinovea deserve a look. The software can measure distances, track paths, measure angles, make annotations and more. One of the great abilities of Kinovea is to compare/contrast two different videos at the same time. This is perfect for what we do as PBIA instructors (first stroke analysis and second stroke analysis).

A thing to remember is that the average webcam only captures at 30fps and sometimes at a very low picture quality. That is a bit difficult at times to see things as they happen in a pool stroke. I don't really want to spend $$$$ on expensive video equipment and software and I found that I didn't have to. You have a very quick and affordable option by simply using one or two PS3 Eye Cam(s) and capturing good quality video at 75fps in Kinovea. You can go for even greater frame rates, but you lose a good amount of picture quality and are limited to very small video sizes.

As for the OP's original question... I find that the use of video up front depends on the needs, experiences and expectations of the student. I capture video of a student before starting any in depth instruction. As a member of the SPF family, the video capture is one of our most valuable and useful teaching tools. Most of the time we review the first video capture together to help introduce sound processes, but I have had some students where I knew the first stroke analysis review wasn't going to be immediately helpful. However, at some point in their instruction every one of my students will have a instructor/student video review of their stroke and shooting processes (before and after). I haven't had a student yet not appreciate the visuals when looking at their form before and after pool school. As an instructor, I find all of my video captures extremely valuable in assessing a student's processes.

Bert - If you have questions or need any help setting things up, send me a PM.

 

[Ratta]

I think that video is the easiest, most direct, and most convincing way to point out flaws in a student's fundamentals. While it is possible to show nearly all flaws without video, those demonstrations are often too indirect and contrived to be convincing. (Mark lines on the table, have a hat rack at the height of the elbow, set up barriers to either side of the cue stick near the joint....)

Not all problems require video. One student had a problem of gripping the cue about 3 hands forward of vertical. A resulting problem was lack of power on shots that required it. Simply pointing out the non-verticality in a static pose was convincing for that student and a few stroke shots with a new grip somewhat farther back reinforced the point. That student worked the new grip into his game by the next lesson. With some other student, more direct convincing may have been required.

I have not experienced negative reaction from students during video feedback other than some consternation at how bad their form is compared to how they thought they played. Most of the video I've done has been in group lessons of 3-5. Often the students will say that the video was the most useful part of the course and they want to have another video done after work on their problems.

Agree here--
from my expirience already very advanced players are often totally surprised if they see *why* they miss some shots.

Furthermore it also helps Me PERSONALLY because i can work with the videos afterwards and this with the necessary time Helps the student and also at least myself to have a good feeling, that i observed and detected all flaws/issues.

lg
Ingo

 

[FranCrimi]

Before and after videos provide tangible evidence of improvement.

How far apart are the before and after videos you are referring to? One hour, one day, one week?

 

[BeiberLvr]

How far apart are the before and after videos you are referring to? One hour, one day, one week?

I don't know the time frame most instructors use.

I'd say the worse the student is to start, the sooner they could be. You could also have multiple B&A videos to really show progression.

I would imagine that 3 months, though, should be the minimum for most. My theory is that if a student decides to pay for lessons then they obviously know their game needs work. Seeing their progression (provided they make any), even if it's just a little, would likely lead to increased confidence in their own game.

 

[FranCrimi]

I don't know the time frame most instructors use.

I'd say the worse the student is to start, the sooner they could be. You could also have multiple B&A videos to really show progression.

I would imagine that 3 months, though, should be the minimum for most. My theory is that if a student decides to pay for lessons then they obviously know their game needs work. Seeing their progression (provided they make any), even if it's just a little, would likely lead to increased confidence in their own game.

What I was referring to in my initial post was videoing a new student at the beginning of a lesson and then videoing them at the end of that same lesson and comparing the two.

 

[Mark Avlon]

How far apart are the before and after videos you are referring to? One hour, one day, one week?

The before is before they are taught mechanics. The after is taken after the lessons and time for the student to be well on their way in integrating what they have learned.

For one on one lessons, it may be 4 to 6 hours. Group lessons may be 12 hours.

Much depends on the student. Students new to the game typically need much less time than one with bad habits developed long ago.

 

[boyersj]

I have been discussing this very thing with my close friend and first student. He is chomping at the bit to get the after video. We collectively think the after should be at the start of the second lesson.

First, it gives them time to go practice. Second, it gives time for them to see what they might forget, and Third it will motivate them to practice and then schedule a follow up lesson to see the improvement. That follow up video really drives curiosity - I remember saying, "I can't wait to see how I look now!"

Steve

 

[Okie]

What I was referring to in my initial post was videoing a new student at the beginning of a lesson and then videoing them at the end of that same lesson and comparing the two.

It takes 30 days to create a habit, or so they say. I would think a second video would be best after giving the student time to build the skills he was taught, and show them what they missed...

That said...

I use video for real time feedback on what I am doing. But my setup is a bit unique in that I only have to pause for a second and look at my 32" screen and see my last shot then proceed to the next. Latency for the win!

Ken

 

[StrokeAnalyzer]

Thanks for the positive comments regarding StrokeAnalyzer.

One of the many things you learn with good instruction from a qualified instructor, is what to look for in your stroke mechanics. What makes for a good quality stroke. StrokeAnalyzer is priced for use by instructors as well as students. Once a student learns the basics of a quality stroke from a good instructor, then they can continue to monitor and work on developing that quality stroke by using StrokeAnalyzer at home or their local pool room. A laptop and a webcam and your ready.

The latest release of StrokeAnalyzer incorporates a new ability... stroke acceleration measurement in 3 axis. This ability does require an additional piece of hardware. Capturing stroke acceleration at rates equivalent to video capture rates of 500fps shows stroke details approaching that of high speed cameras. It's an interesting measurement and I'm looking forward to seeing how instructors and users benefit from this new capability. The acceleration hardware should be ready sometime next month.

Cheers
Bob

 

[Tony_in_MD]

500 fps!!

What kind of additional hardware do you need for that? I am thinking a better camera, than what I have currently. Also what does the file size look like for a 500 fps vid.

Thanks for the positive comments regarding StrokeAnalyzer.

One of the many things you learn with good instruction from a qualified instructor, is what to look for in your stroke mechanics. What makes for a good quality stroke. StrokeAnalyzer is priced for use by instructors as well as students. Once a student learns the basics of a quality stroke from a good instructor, then they can continue to monitor and work on developing that quality stroke by using StrokeAnalyzer at home or their local pool room. A laptop and a webcam and your ready.

The latest release of StrokeAnalyzer incorporates a new ability... stroke acceleration measurement in 3 axis. This ability does require an additional piece of hardware. Capturing stroke acceleration at rates equivalent to video capture rates of 500fps shows stroke details approaching that of high speed cameras. It's an interesting measurement and I'm looking forward to seeing how instructors and users benefit from this new capability. The acceleration hardware should be ready sometime next month.

Cheers
Bob

 

[StrokeAnalyzer]

Not 500fps video....sample rate of 2ms for the acceleration data. Thats equivalent to a video capture rate of 500fps. Look here for an example of what the acceleration data looks like...

http://www.strokeanalyzer.com/screenshots.htm

4th screen shot down. That data was captured at 8ms rate. You can see a photo of the hardware in the 5th screen shot.

Bob

 

[Tony_in_MD]

I see now, that is way too cool.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Not 500fps video....sample rate of 2ms capture rate for the acceleration data. Thats equivalent to a video capture rate of 500fps. Look here for an example of what the acceleration data looks like...

http://www.strokeanalyzer.com/screenshots.htm

4th screen shot down. That data was captured ar 8ms rate. You can see a photo of the hardware in the 5th screen shot.

Bob

That's a very interesting setup. Would it be possible to track rotation of the stick?

Also, when the tip hits the ball, the stick is decelerated at about 100 gs. I assume that the system is overloaded along the stroke axis at that point.

 

[Mark Avlon]

I like to use High Speed live capture, which doesn't work well with some of the other software.

Live capture does take a capable computer, and software designed for the task, but you don't really need live capture. Many may be surprised that they already have the equipment necessary for high speed work.

In addition to the webcams for doing multi-view recording on the PC with StrokeAnalyzer, I use two Canon cameras (T2i, ELPH 100 HS) for high speed recordings. After recording, it takes only a couple of minutes to download the video from the cameras to the PC for review. The T2i records 1280x720 60 fps, and the ELPH will record 640x480 120 fps, and 320x240 240fps.

30 fps is adequate for typical review. The 60 or 120 fps is useful when determining when parts of the body move in relation to tip contact. 240 fps is good for seeing how balls react after collisions.

 

[StrokeAnalyzer]

That's a very interesting setup. Would it be possible to track rotation of the stick?

I guess rotation would have an X and Y component. Not so easy to see...might require some additional computations. stop making me think about it...haha.

Also, when the tip hits the ball, the stick is decelerated at about 100 gs. I assume that the system is overloaded along the stroke axis at that point.

The maximum acceleration the sensor can measured is about +/-8gs...so yes overload. However....it is interesting to see reflections up and down the cue AFTER contact with the CB...so the sensor recovers pretty fast.

I have wondered if the reflections up and down the cue can somehow be utilized to quantify the "hit" of a cue?

Bob

 

[backplaying]

It took video to let me know just how much I was moving on some shots. Staying down on the ball is a must in pool and many players don't realize how much they move until they see it themselfs.

 

[FranCrimi]

It took video to let me know just how much I was moving on some shots. Staying down on the ball is a must in pool and many players don't realize how much they move until they see it themselfs.

I agree, and it's very easy for players to set up a camera and video themselves or to have a friend video them.