Want to improve your pool game next weekend?

dick
i agree with you 100% in the sense that most of the people taking these type of lessons are looking to improve their stroke mechanics and they are great for that purpose
part of learning to play IS TO PLAY
and especially to learn one pocket
but even there if you dont practice the one rail banks so they are automatic
for example all the action in the world wont help you make them....
we agree shane /alex/dennis orcullo might not find this format appealing
"but there are so many lower level players that want to have more enjoyment by playing better that can benefit from this type of experience"

Larry, I certainly agree with your last sentence, but I thought we were discussing mainly "accomplished players"!..Most of them, (including myself) can make simple one rail banks in their sleep!..If you can't, you are not an 'accomplished player' and all the practice in the world, or a good instructor, is not going to make you one!..Being in a lot of action, is still where its at!
..I think our good buddy Androd, has also made that point!

Yes, banking is an important part of 1P..But it is a distant 3rd or 4th place, to moving well, trapping. and getting out of traps!..That is why I keep saying, only experiencing lots of tough competition, will provide that for you!

PS..But, you're still my favorite poster! :thumbup:..Cheers!

LATE EDIT; Larry, see my post #70 (this thread)..for some of my thoughts regarding 'coaches/instructors'!
 
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does tiger woods/serena williams/roger federer have world champions as coaches??
NO
just sayin lou
:)


Puhleeeeeeeese, Larry. Do you really think Tiger would waste three days of his time with "instructors" whose major qualifications were: they were "lifetime players" and advocated pausing at the top of his swing, lol?

Players at his level are looking for someone they can work with for months/years, not three days. Someone who will *observe* and can distinguish subtle variations in mechanics. Someone who can learn what works best for that particular player and can help them be more consistent.

There is a reason they hire *coaches* and not *instructors.*

Just sayin', Larry ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
Would you rather learn about the moon from a licensed high school science teacher with certificates OR from a damn astronaut that was actually there? I ponder this when talking about instructors, sure some are world class players, most current pro's offer lessons but I agree that some lack the knowledge of communication/teaching while others might be just ok at it. I really question the instructors that only teach stroking, when there is so so so much more to the games of pool! I like to see instructors with the ability to run 3or more racks at a time. Like mark Wilson, max Ederle, Varner etc.

Sure everyone could or could of at one time benefitted from a stroke instructor, but I really believe at a certain point the instructor needs to be great at game play! I know this is off topic/but not really seeing where this thred is headed lol I play both sides when it comes to this ,I know, so you don't need to point it out.
A lot of these threads get into expenses etc. table mechanics barely getting by, instructors having added cost. Here's an idea get a better job. When I was 16 I worked at Hardee's and loved it. But guess what I got a better job! don't hate on those who question cost, quality etc. after all you're the professional


There are any number of pros and world champions available for lessons. The last guy I took a lessons from told me this: "If you want to play like a champion, take lessons from a champion." That would have been Ray Martin.

Lou Figueroa
 
Yes, banking is an important part of 1P..But it is a distant 3rd or 4th place, to moving well, trapping. and getting out of traps!..That is why I keep saying, only experiencing lots of tough competition, will provide that for you!

PS..But, you're still my favorite poster! :thumbup:..Cheers!

For me every aspect is equally important. Having the confidence to execute properly is needed along with tough competition. Any 1Pocket schools around. I'd enjoy a day of playing different levels with an instructor or A player critiquing the game.
 
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Are

A service or item being offered and should be taken or skipped. Do you sell anything for a living...would you find it inappropriate if people wrote ...too much, not worth it, can get it cheaper, What does your lifetime experience have to with a person that can afford these lessons/school. How are you helping the instructors or participants. Start your own school. Hopefully you'll get filled up quickly and have bunch of positives replies.
As far as "Someone you've never heard of'? Who are we talking about. Someone from this school? Or someone we never heard about. Of course an unknown is worthless until they have credible references and reviews.


We talk about pool here, no?

So if someone is offering pool lessons -- here -- they should be able to explain who they are, what their qualifications are, and what they have to offer --- here.

Then we should be able to discuss the pros and cons without apologies.

Or is Professor Harold Hill welcome here too and gets a free pass?

Lou Figueroa
 
We talk about pool here, no?

So if someone is offering pool lessons -- here -- they should be able to explain who they are, what their qualifications are, and what they have to offer --- here.

Then we should be able to discuss the pros and cons without apologies.

Or is Professor Harold Hill welcome here too and gets a free pass?

Lou Figueroa

Agreed...but in reference to this thread is there someone in particular you are referring to or simply making a blanket statement. I wouldn't do squat with an unrecommended-unknown anyone...lesson, buy a pool cue, have a home table serviced, dental work, etc. I try real hard to be selective when employing anyone as promises and good intentions are trouble. My fingers no longer do the walking.
The instructors and table techs I found here (AzB) and used have great reviews and references, I went with them and back for more. I do agree with you...the known unknown is a bad risk. If I have regard for an instructor and he recommends one of his peers I'm going with that. Quality people know quality people. I would take the chance.
 
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Puhleeeeeeeese, Larry. Do you really think Tiger would waste three days of his time with "instructors" whose major qualifications were: they were "lifetime players" and advocated pausing at the top of his swing, lol?

Players at his level are looking for someone they can work with for months/years, not three days. Someone who will *observe* and can distinguish subtle variations in mechanics. Someone who can learn what works best for that particular player and can help them be more consistent.

There is a reason they hire *coaches* and not *instructors.* <--Good point Lou..But Tiger can afford a different *coach* for every day of the week..Larry can't :o

Just sayin', Larry ;-)

Lou Figueroa

Lou, I think we have both been too critical of Larry !..No one loves the game more than he does!..We should remember, he does not play at our level, but no one works harder at trying to improve his 1P game, more than he does!..It might have done us both some good, to see things through the eyes of an average decent player!

Back when I was still giving lessons, I truly believe, had I seen things more from Larry's perspective, it would have made me a much better instructor!..Maybe Bernie Pettipiece, (my prize pupil) would now be the best 1P player in the world..instead of only in the top 5 or 10! :thumbup:

PS..BTW..I have yet to receive my 'jelly' for supporting you (ie; 'coaching' you) throughout your 10K match with Barton..I am sure it must have gotten lost in the mail!..:D
 
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Who said all we teach is stroke? Show me a single post where it says we only teach stroke. Yes, there is a ton more to learn...and we have both the knowledge and ability to teach it. It takes forever to learn it, if you don't have an accurate and repeatable stroke. That's why smart players focus on that first. The playing knowledge is only applicable to the extent that the student is able to repeat what the instructor demonstrates for them. Then, only practice and competition help ingrain things.

mvp... If you think instructors can't play, there are plenty of us who will be happy to step up and give your wallet a lesson! So, if you get your ass kicked, does that mean the instructor is "okay" in your eyes? This mentality has always been present, for eternity.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

I really question the instructors that only teach stroking, when there is so so so much more to the games of pool!

Sure everyone could or could of at one time benefitted from a stroke instructor, but I really believe at a certain point the instructor needs to be great at game play!
 
Lou...You pause at the end of your backswing. I'm willing to bet you $500, so you know I'm serious, that I can prove that you pause before stroking forward. As for the rest...most people (even the champions who come to pool school) are quite amazed at what they learn about themselves over three days.

Your second paragraph is exactly what we do. You can accomplish a lot in 3 days with video analysis and specific practice (hell I can accomplish a lot with a student in an 8 hr session...and my testamonials support that), but the greatest degree of improvement comes after pool school. For some it will be quickly assimilated...others will take longer.

There is certainly nothing wrong with regular "coaching" as you call it, and many of us work with players on an ongoing basis. Most of the PBIA Master Instructors are pretty skilled players, and good teachers too. The SPF Group of PBIA Master Instructors ALL play at a high level, and are considered by their peers and students, to be the best at what they do.

I fail to see what continually badmouthing instructors that you know nothing about puts you in a positive light. Perhaps you don't care. I believe others do.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Puhleeeeeeeese, Larry. Do you really think Tiger would waste three days of his time with "instructors" whose major qualifications were: they were "lifetime players" and advocated pausing at the top of his swing, lol?

Players at his level are looking for someone they can work with for months/years, not three days. Someone who will *observe* and can distinguish subtle variations in mechanics. Someone who can learn what works best for that particular player and can help them be more consistent.

There is a reason they hire *coaches* and not *instructors.*

Just sayin', Larry ;-)

Lou Figueroa
 
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Lou...You pause at the end of your backswing. I'm willing to bet you $500, so you know I'm serious, that I can prove that you pause before stroking forward. As for the rest...most people (even the champions who come to pool school) are quite amazed at what they learn about themselves over three days.

... Your second paragraph is exactly what we do. You can accomplish a lot in 3 days with video analysis and specific practice (hell I can accomplish a lot with a student in an 8 hr session...and my testamonials support that), but the greatest degree of improvement comes after pool school. For some it will be quickly assimilated...others will take longer.

There is certainly nothing wrong with regular "coaching" as you call it, and many of us work with players on an ongoing basis. Most of the PBIA Master Instructors are pretty skilled players, and good teachers too. The SPF Group of PBIA Master Instructors ALL play at a high level, and are considered by their peers and students, to be the best at what they do.

I fail to see what continually badmouthing instructors that you know nothing about puts you in a positive light. Perhaps you don't care. I believe others do.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, not intending to ruffle your feathers, but I tend to agree with much of what Lou and MVP are saying!..I will admit, It requires a different set of skills, to be a competent coach/instructor..But even with cameras, and other visual aids, it is a 'real stretch' to say, that 8 hrs. (or even 8 days) can possibly show any meaningful improvement in anyone at an intricate, demanding game like pool!..Unless, of course, you are starting out with someone who has never even held a cue stick in their hands!..I am sure you provide a valuable service to people like that, and many amateurs alike!

It brings to mind, CJ Wileys absurd claim, that he can teach anyone how to play one pocket, in a few weeks or so!..As you said yourself..everyone learns at their own pace!..I've been playing tough action for over sixty years, and I'm still learning!..You also must see, that most people (no matter how much they love the game) will never improve enough to become even a mid-level 'B' player..And thats with hundreds of lessons, over many years time!

I have no idea how many 'PBIA instructors or 'Masters', are certified as such, or more importantly, who certifies them???..But, with the exception of Ray Martin or Stan Shufert, I have to doubt there are very many really solid "A players" in the coaching ranks!..IMO, you are placing way too much emphasis on an instructors ability to "teach", and not enough on their own skill level as a player themselves!..So I must question the benefits a top player would gain, if any?..As the old saying goes.."It takes one, to know one" ;)

Lessons are fine, for beginners, but there is no substitute for HAMB, staying in action, or god-given talent and there never will be!..And that takes a LOT of time and dedication..Tiger Woods has finally realized that, thats why he has canned all his high $$$ 'swing coaches', and decided to work on getting his mechanics, and his game back himself!..(who better?) :rolleyes:

PS..Also, please enlighten me..What does "SPF Group" stand for???
 
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Want to improve your pool game next weekend? I think the thread should read "Want to improve your debating skills next week?"
Once again... a service is being offered and it repeatedly turns into Let's reduce this to the lowest common denominator.
To the guys that constantly argue with Scott... are you instructors? Are you as good as Scott and if so will you travel and give lessons for 1/2 price? Why is Scott's business your business.

Maybe there should be sticky with a poll. "Reasons to and not to take lessons." Do your posting there so we don't have to read the same unnecessary lesson bashing posts. Your comments serve no purpose...they are nothing more than a bar room argument. Do you need to constantly beat the dead horse or do you have a case for Scott. Are you jealous or simply bored and need to constantly counter him. Take the lesson/stroke argument to the sticky section.
 
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hard sell, over priced, unqualified...just kind of wreaking of a scam

gotta love the pool world!

countless world class pros will teach ya in the $25/hr range

imo, an instructor is best served working with you on basic fundamentals, the basics via constant repetition

above and beyond that, the amount of information online is endless
 
I think that Mark Wilson only charged like $500 for a 2 day weekend with him. You would need to be in the St. Louis area for lessons with him though. He greatly helped to improve an old friend of mines game.

Mark is another well qualified instructor, but check out my opinions in post #70, (to Scott Lee) re; 'coaching'!

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showpost.php?p=5672942&postcount=70

You can buy all the lessons, books and DVD's you want, but they will help you only as much as you are capable of absorbing, and how much time you are willing to devote to it!..IMO, nothing will replace HAMB, and being in tough action!..:thumbup:
 
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What "champions" have gone to pool school? Johnnyt

who said this will make you a pool champion?

hard sell, unqualified...just kind of wreaking of a scam

you people are ridiculous

just take a look in the instructor review section, no complaints

no ones saying these classes are going to make ''world beaters'' like yourself i guess

with people like YOU in the ''pool world'' its very hard to want to be a part of it
its no wonder the state of this site and the rooms are in
 
Agreed...but in reference to this thread is there someone in particular you are referring to or simply making a blanket statement. I wouldn't do squat with an unrecommended-unknown anyone...lesson, buy a pool cue, have a home table serviced, dental work, etc. I try real hard to be selective when employing anyone as promises and good intentions are trouble. My fingers no longer do the walking.
The instructors and table techs I found here (AzB) and used have great reviews and references, I went with them and back for more. I do agree with you...the known unknown is a bad risk. If I have regard for an instructor and he recommends one of his peers I'm going with that. Quality people know quality people. I would take the chance.


How could I be making a blanket statement?

I have written here about lessons I've taken. I just don't believe all lessons are created equal. In particular, when I look at the rosters of some pool schools and note that many listed instructors cite "lifetime player" as a qualification, it gives me pause.

Lou Figueroa
just not at
the back end of
ma stroke :-)
 
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Lou, I think we have both been too critical of Larry !..No one loves the game more than he does!..We should remember, he does not play at our level, but no one works harder at trying to improve his 1P game, more than he does!..It might have done us both some good, to see things through the eyes of an average decent player!

Back when I was still giving lessons, I truly believe, had I seen things more from Larry's perspective, it would have made me a much better instructor!..Maybe Bernie Pettipiece, (my prize pupil) would now be the best 1P player in the world..instead of only in the top 5 or 10! :thumbup:

PS..BTW..I have yet to receive my 'jelly' for supporting you (ie; 'coaching' you) throughout your 10K match with Barton..I am sure it must have gotten lost in the mail!..:D


SJD, you make a valid point. Different levels of players need different things.

As to da jelly... I know that your support came from the deep well of goodness in your heart and I never wanted to offend you with a proffer of financial compensation :-) Really, the only guy who got jelly from that affair was the guy who flew out on his own dime to be my corner man. On a side note, I also had a "sizable' bankroll in my pocket to put down as a side bet for a good number of folks but as you know -- despite months of bluster and claims that he would accept all side bets at the venue -- when the rubber hit the road, he would not get down for an-udder nickel.

Lou Figueroa
 
Lou...You pause at the end of your backswing. I'm willing to bet you $500, so you know I'm serious, that I can prove that you pause before stroking forward. As for the rest...most people (even the champions who come to pool school) are quite amazed at what they learn about themselves over three days.

Your second paragraph is exactly what we do. You can accomplish a lot in 3 days with video analysis and specific practice (hell I can accomplish a lot with a student in an 8 hr session...and my testamonials support that), but the greatest degree of improvement comes after pool school. For some it will be quickly assimilated...others will take longer.

There is certainly nothing wrong with regular "coaching" as you call it, and many of us work with players on an ongoing basis. Most of the PBIA Master Instructors are pretty skilled players, and good teachers too. The SPF Group of PBIA Master Instructors ALL play at a high level, and are considered by their peers and students, to be the best at what they do.

I fail to see what continually badmouthing instructors that you know nothing about puts you in a positive light. Perhaps you don't care. I believe others do.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com


Scott, "the pause" thing has been beat to death in previous discussions.

Smoothly transitioning from a back swing to a forward swing is not "a pause" and you can't make it into one no matter how hard you try. If you want to see "a pause" you can see one at the beginning of my stroke when I get down on a shot and "pause" my cue tip at the CB.

I don't believe expressing legitimate doubts or even just having a different opinion than yours constitutes "badmouthing." And as to badmouthing instructors, nothing could be further from the truth. I have taken several lessons and raved about my instructors here.

Lou Figueroa
 
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