Warm-up Strokes Vs. Measuring Strokes

[lfigueroa]

On todays equipment (cloth and rails) you really don't need the long strokes of yesteryear.

Its all about the feel of the shot. Those little "mini strokes" or measured strokes are used to feel.

I take a couple of long practice strokes just to make sure that my cue is on the shot line. Then its to the feel stokes measuring distance between the QB and OB and force of the shot needed to send the QB where I want it to go.

I have notice Mika and Johnny A. taking very small measure strokes though, maybe a quarter inch.

Thanks for the thread BD. :smile:

John

I would slightly disagree.

I do believe that you are right to a certain extent. However, I also believe that in the modern age, when there has been an abundi of instructional material in various forms, that the players of this era are more technically correct or proficient.

If you look at the available video of some of the old-time stars, like Greenleaf and Hoppe, they have huge honking swarps in their strokes. I believe that many more of the players of today are stoking straighter and more precisely, so that instead of having to try and groove their strokes during warm up, they can now instead concentrate on a precise dab.

Lou Figueroa

 

[Scott Lee]

Lou...There are not necessarily right or wrong ways to do anything...just different choices. Warmup strokes (whether short or long) are for aiming at the CB. The pause at the CB, with the tip REALLY close, is what allows the subconscious brain to "green light" the shot, and then hopefully you deliver the cue smoothly and accurately. IMO, the important thing is that you do things the exact same way every time you get down on a shot.

Personally, I think that's a bit disrespectful to one of the top instructors in the world.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

It means that if you're going to make such a universal statement -- as in "Warm-up and final have no bearing on each other" AS IF this applies to all players -- at least provide some supporting evidence and arguments.

Personally, I think you're flat out wrong, but am willing to hear what you have to say

Lou Figueroa

 

[buckshotshoey]

During the Ryder Cup, Rory Mcilroy referenced a pool players stroke to a waggle in golf. They asked him why he doesn't use practice strokes when getting ready to putt. He said you don't see pool players taking practice strokes next to the cue ball like most golfers do. He just gets behind the golf ball, lines it up, and fires it in.

 

[elvicash]

RandyG could you please share why you think warmup strokes and final strokes do not have a common basis.

Myself when I waggle I am refining my feel for the shot keying in on the aim point and the tip on the CB point. As well as shot feel / stroke length, on the final I want to have the same back swing that I was finding/feeling in the waggles is that not a good idea?

 

[lfigueroa]

Lou...There are not necessarily right or wrong ways to do anything...just different choices. Warmup strokes (whether short or long) are for aiming at the CB. The pause at the CB, with the tip REALLY close, is what allows the subconscious brain to "green light" the shot, and then hopefully you deliver the cue smoothly and accurately. IMO, the important thing is that you do things the exact same way every time you get down on a shot.

Personally, I think that's a bit disrespectful to one of the top instructors in the world.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Scott, I agree-- there are not necessarily right or wrong ways to shoot pool.

I disagree about the pause and cue tip. Many players, for any number of reasons, don't pause and/or do not get their cue tip right on the CB and yet, are very successful.

I agree that doing things the same way is generally the best approach. However, even though a consistent PSR is a great and wonderful thing, a good, insightful player will sooner or later discover that some shots, once again for any number of reasons, require diverging from the PSR in some way for the best results. Slavish adherence to a PSR can be a bad thing.

Lastly, please explain to me what is disrespectful about saying I flatly disagree with Randy on any subject related to pool, particularly when he throws out a sweeping generalization that goes contrary to generally accepted principles, with no evidence or explanation. Did I not genuflect deeply enough or something?

Lou Figueroa

 

[BasementDweller]

In golf players waggle the club before starting their final swing. It's for relaxation, developing rhythm and part of the golfers pre-shot routine.

Is it possible some pool players are doing the same thing ?

It's certainly possible....

I'm glad you brought up golf because it appears to me that what many of the best pool players are doing is the exact opposite of what golfers do. Golfers use their practice swings to dial in the speed of the shot. I don't think many of these pool players are concerned at all with this during their practice stroke phase. They are confident in their cueing action and certain that they will get the speed of the hit right. What they are concerned with is just hitting the cue ball precisely.

When you watch amateur pool players it seems like many of them (myself included) are more focused on their cueing action during this practice phase -- like golfers. Maybe we should just focus more on the precise hit of the cue ball and not worry so much about calibrating the stroke.

 

[BasementDweller]

On todays equipment (cloth and rails) you really don't need the long strokes of yesteryear.

Its all about the feel of the shot. Those little "mini strokes" or measured strokes are used to feel.

I take a couple of long practice strokes just to make sure that my cue is on the shot line. Then its to the feel stokes measuring distance between the QB and OB and force of the shot needed to send the QB where I want it to go.

I have notice Mika and Johnny A. taking very small measure strokes though, maybe a quarter inch.

Thanks for the thread BD. :smile:

John

While I agree with you about today's equipment lessening the need for a big powerful stroke, I don't think this is the reason that many players employ them. Regardless of the actual "power" behind the money stroke, the players that I'm referring to still utilize these small measuring strokes before pulling the trigger.

 

[BasementDweller]

I would slightly disagree.

I do believe that you are right to a certain extent. However, I also believe that in the modern age, when there has been an abundi of instructional material in various forms, that the players of this era are more technically correct or proficient.

If you look at the available video of some of the old-time stars, like Greenleaf and Hoppe, they have huge honking swarps in their strokes. I believe that many more of the players of today are stoking straighter and more precisely, so that instead of having to try and groove their strokes during warm up, they can now instead concentrate on a precise dab.

Lou Figueroa

This is perfect!

I think this summarizes the point I was trying to make.

While down over the cue ball, amateurs are still trying to groove their strokes. Pros don't have to do this so they just concentrate on that "precise dab" as you put it.

So the question becomes -- would amateur players benefit from focusing less on grooving their strokes while down over the ball, and instead focus on that precise speck on the cue ball that we intent to hit?

 

[3andstop]

I just have to throw my two cents in here. Scott, what Lou said was not only NOT disrespectful, but IMO a mild response to what I sensed as a condescending style of short unhelpful answer from Randy that we see all too many times from him. Randy .. sorry man, but what is ... is. You may not even be aware you're doing it or sensitive to how it comes across to others.

It's more like he puts himself above everyone with a "na na" I know something you don't know attitude. BTW, I had the opportunity to watch an instructional 2 part video from you guys, ehh.

Now to the warm up stroke thing. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT period!

Some of us have minds that assimilate situations / shots quicker than others, from different perspectives than others, look at the shot positions and focus on different aspects of it than others, and yet, execute the shots perfectly. So, to attempt to blanketly say one way or another is the be all, end all proper way is ONLY THAT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PERSON SAYING IT.

For me personally, I do pause at the cue ball. I have a little saying that I like to think is a good way to aim / align. That saying is .... STATIC AIM and DYNAMIC CONFIRMATION. I think it's good to think of it that way ... static aim, dynamic confirmation.

For me what that means is, while the cue tip is stopped (static) at the CB, I aim and align the shot, and myself, then focus on the line from the CB to OB, then and more predominantly, I visualize the line from the OB to the portion of the pocket I want the OB to go. That is my "static" aim / alignment.

Then I practice stroke a few times for a more than one reason, one is to oil up the old arm, and another is to get a feel for the stroke, the lightness of my grip on the butt, but here, mostly ... with this "dynamic" movement, I am able to confirm the line of the cue stroke and and when I once again come to rest at the CB, I reaffirm correct contact point, alignment and sighting of the shot.

I may do this two or three times, statically aiming / aligning, and dynamically confirming the correctness of it all. It happens quickly, but the concept is to do the aim and alignment while NOT MOVING the cue, and then confirming the alignment by the dynamic movement of the cue back to the point of the cue ball.

Once this is all perfect, comfortable, and feeling just right, I shoot .... and shank it by a diamond! :thumbup:

 

[BasementDweller]

3andstop,

From what you described, it sounds like you do a lot of aiming/aligning while down over the cue. This may be a reason many of us do all these full on practice type strokes. I do not believe pros do any of this aiming/aligning while down over the cue as you describe. They do this all before dropping down into the shot -- they know they are on the shot line. This may explain why many of them don't have to bother with all the preshot warm-up strokes.

 

[randyg]

ELVICASH
LOU

Yes, I was a little vague, on purpose. I wanted to see other opinions on the subject, which I have.

WARM-UP STROKES: The useful purpose of any warm-up (practice) stroke(s) is two fold.

1. Aiming at the cue ball. Getting your tip in a precise position on the cue ball. Preparing that final commitment to the actual strike. That's why most of our eye pattern time is spent on the cue ball as opposed to aiming at a target.

2. Getting our body comfortable, our bridge length and style correct and even relaxing the Tricep and Bicep muscles.

Your warm-up strokes can be of any length or speed. That's your personal choice. All they are designed for is aiming at the cue ball.

The speed of your warm-up strokes have very little to do with the speed of your final stroke. I will go to just one end of the spectrum: On your Break shot, are your warm-up strokes the same speed as your break speed? Hardly!

Hope we continue this discussion,
randyg

 

[Pidge]

For me, feathering the cue ball is slow and controlled. One thing I do though is I first bring the cue back as far as I will bring it back when I'm going to shoot. I do this maybe 2 times. Then I do little dabs close up to the cue ball, pause, pull back, pause, shoot. Bringing the cue as far back as you will when shooting the shoot does help me. It helps to let me know how many fingers will leave the cue in the grip, how it will feel, and how it will feel in my triceps. All of which seem to help on the final shot.

 

[3andstop]

3andstop,

From what you described, it sounds like you do a lot of aiming/aligning while down over the cue. This may be a reason many of us do all these full on practice type strokes. I do not believe pros do any of this aiming/aligning while down over the cue as you describe. They do this all before dropping down into the shot -- they know they are on the shot line. This may explain why many of them don't have to bother with all the preshot warm-up strokes.

It's actually a far longer explanation than it is aiming while down. I can see how what I wrote comes across that way.

I use the side of my ferrule to aim and align the shot. Most of that all comes while I'm upright, evaluating and envisioning the shot. I bring my cue stick vertically down on that line the side of the ferrule makes as I'm coming down into the shot, and I don't take much time after that while down.

When I am down on the shot I recheck the alignment and aim from the down perspective, and then ensure the cue is moving on the line of the shot with the practice strokes. This is all happening rather quickly, maybe 3 seconds on longer shots, no time at all on half table shots. Of course on some shots, I am not comfortable with, it may take a bit longer to see the shot.

The explanation, was designed to be helpful to players still fighting to find the best way for them as another way to try. I hope it didn't come across too much like an extended process, just an extended explanation.

 

[lfigueroa]

This is perfect!

I think this summarizes the point I was trying to make.

While down over the cue ball, amateurs are still trying to groove their strokes. Pros don't have to do this so they just concentrate on that "precise dab" as you put it.

So the question becomes -- would amateur players benefit from focusing less on grooving their strokes while down over the ball, and instead focus on that precise speck on the cue ball that we intent to hit?

I think that for the majority of players the grooving part comes first on the continuum of improvement. IOW, first and foremost you have to have unquestioning confidence in your stroke and that when you pull the trigger you're going to hit the CB where you want to and at whatever speed you want to. For most guys, that can take a long, long time to achieve and it's the base reason why the majority of us aren't cashing at the US Open. The *really* ugly truth is that some guys never -- even after years and years -- ever achieve a straight, reliable stroke.

But, if a player can get past that plateau, then you can concentrate on fine tuning what you're trying to do on any given shot -- once you know that the mechanical part is OK, you can forget about it and work on all the tiny variations in speed and spin that gets you to the next level.

Soooo, IMO, it's the old walk before you can run thing.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I just have to throw my two cents in here. Scott, what Lou said was not only NOT disrespectful, but IMO a mild response to what I sensed as a condescending style of short unhelpful answer from Randy that we see all too many times from him. Randy .. sorry man, but what is ... is. You may not even be aware you're doing it or sensitive to how it comes across to others.

It's more like he puts himself above everyone with a "na na" I know something you don't know attitude. BTW, I had the opportunity to watch an instructional 2 part video from you guys, ehh.

Now to the warm up stroke thing. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT period!

Some of us have minds that assimilate situations / shots quicker than others, from different perspectives than others, look at the shot positions and focus on different aspects of it than others, and yet, execute the shots perfectly. So, to attempt to blanketly say one way or another is the be all, end all proper way is ONLY THAT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PERSON SAYING IT.

For me personally, I do pause at the cue ball. I have a little saying that I like to think is a good way to aim / align. That saying is .... STATIC AIM and DYNAMIC CONFIRMATION. I think it's good to think of it that way ... static aim, dynamic confirmation.

For me what that means is, while the cue tip is stopped (static) at the CB, I aim and align the shot, and myself, then focus on the line from the CB to OB, then and more predominantly, I visualize the line from the OB to the portion of the pocket I want the OB to go. That is my "static" aim / alignment.

Then I practice stroke a few times for a more than one reason, one is to oil up the old arm, and another is to get a feel for the stroke, the lightness of my grip on the butt, but here, mostly ... with this "dynamic" movement, I am able to confirm the line of the cue stroke and and when I once again come to rest at the CB, I reaffirm correct contact point, alignment and sighting of the shot.

I may do this two or three times, statically aiming / aligning, and dynamically confirming the correctness of it all. It happens quickly, but the concept is to do the aim and alignment while NOT MOVING the cue, and then confirming the alignment by the dynamic movement of the cue back to the point of the cue ball.

Once this is all perfect, comfortable, and feeling just right, I shoot .... and shank it by a diamond! :thumbup:

Thanks for speaking 3&S. I certainly meant no disrespect.

And I do believe you are correct in observing we're all different and different things work for different guys. We all construct our own personal reality when it comes to pool.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

ELVICASH
LOU

Yes, I was a little vague, on purpose. I wanted to see other opinions on the subject, which I have.

WARM-UP STROKES: The useful purpose of any warm-up (practice) stroke(s) is two fold.

1. Aiming at the cue ball. Getting your tip in a precise position on the cue ball. Preparing that final commitment to the actual strike. That's why most of our eye pattern time is spent on the cue ball as opposed to aiming at a target.

2. Getting our body comfortable, our bridge length and style correct and even relaxing the Tricep and Bicep muscles.

Your warm-up strokes can be of any length or speed. That's your personal choice. All they are designed for is aiming at the cue ball.

The speed of your warm-up strokes have very little to do with the speed of your final stroke. I will go to just one end of the spectrum: On your Break shot, are your warm-up strokes the same speed as your break speed? Hardly!

Hope we continue this discussion,
randyg

"Warm-up and final have no bearing on each other."

"The speed of your warm-up strokes have very little to do with the speed of your final stroke."


Big difference.

Lou Figueroa

 

[3RAILKICK]

I just have to throw my two cents in here. Scott, what Lou said was not only NOT disrespectful, but IMO a mild response to what I sensed as a condescending style of short unhelpful answer from Randy that we see all too many times from him. Randy .. sorry man, but what is ... is. You may not even be aware you're doing it or sensitive to how it comes across to others.

It's more like he puts himself above everyone with a "na na" I know something you don't know attitude. BTW, I had the opportunity to watch an instructional 2 part video from you guys, ehh.

Now to the warm up stroke thing. WE ARE ALL DIFFERENT period!

Some of us have minds that assimilate situations / shots quicker than others, from different perspectives than others, look at the shot positions and focus on different aspects of it than others, and yet, execute the shots perfectly. So, to attempt to blanketly say one way or another is the be all, end all proper way is ONLY THAT FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE PERSON SAYING IT.

For me personally, I do pause at the cue ball. I have a little saying that I like to think is a good way to aim / align. That saying is .... STATIC AIM and DYNAMIC CONFIRMATION. I think it's good to think of it that way ... static aim, dynamic confirmation.

For me what that means is, while the cue tip is stopped (static) at the CB, I aim and align the shot, and myself, then focus on the line from the CB to OB, then and more predominantly, I visualize the line from the OB to the portion of the pocket I want the OB to go. That is my "static" aim / alignment.

Then I practice stroke a few times for a more than one reason, one is to oil up the old arm, and another is to get a feel for the stroke, the lightness of my grip on the butt, but here, mostly ... with this "dynamic" movement, I am able to confirm the line of the cue stroke and and when I once again come to rest at the CB, I reaffirm correct contact point, alignment and sighting of the shot.

I may do this two or three times, statically aiming / aligning, and dynamically confirming the correctness of it all. It happens quickly, but the concept is to do the aim and alignment while NOT MOVING the cue, and then confirming the alignment by the dynamic movement of the cue back to the point of the cue ball.

Once this is all perfect, comfortable, and feeling just right, I shoot .... and shank it by a diamond! :thumbup:

It's actually a far longer explanation than it is aiming while down. I can see how what I wrote comes across that way.

I use the side of my ferrule to aim and align the shot. Most of that all comes while I'm upright, evaluating and envisioning the shot. I bring my cue stick vertically down on that line the side of the ferrule makes as I'm coming down into the shot, and I don't take much time after that while down.

When I am down on the shot I recheck the alignment and aim from the down perspective, and then ensure the cue is moving on the line of the shot with the practice strokes. This is all happening rather quickly, maybe 3 seconds on longer shots, no time at all on half table shots. Of course on some shots, I am not comfortable with, it may take a bit longer to see the shot.

The explanation, was designed to be helpful to players still fighting to find the best way for them as another way to try. I hope it didn't come across too much like an extended process, just an extended explanation.

I like this description/formula a lot. Thanks.

The static/dynamic aim/alignment and actionable confirmation process seems like a pretty good go/no go feedback loop.

I might add that imho doing a number of 'air strokes' before getting down on the shot, while doing the bulk of the aiming sighting while standing, does most of the heavy lifting of preparing for the shot.

Once down, the combination of a couple of 'measuring' strokes for precise tip placement, and a few 'oiling' practice strokes that approximate the delivery tempo and confirm/dial in straight stroke....then deliver the actual shot stroke.

Bulk of aiming and stroke speed while behind the shot.

Fine tuning and adjustment while down on shot.

Shoot.

Just my opinion...subject to change and revision based on results. Works for me currently...gotta go with your own 'me' process.

To 3andstop: Great topic. Good to hear opinions from members. About pool. And this discussion has a lot of merit, even or perhaps more so because opinions differ. Thanks for a great thread. Note: Missing within a diamond is my next goal.

 

[bdorman]

The pros can get away with short practice strokes because their overall stroke is so consistently straight that they don't need to "check" it during practice strokes.

As a non-pro I use my practice strokes to make sure my stroke is straight, especially when I'm shooting from an odd position (off the rail, etc). Therefore, my practice strokes are full-length.

 

[SouthernDraw]

Young vs Old? Maybe I'm just too old to recognize youth!

Not sure young actually works here in most examples given. A little research shows...

Shane is 31, Alex is 38, Niels 37,

Maybe Dechaine, 27yrs. I guess you could call him young.

World Cup of Pool?
Don't really remember many young players. Appleton is 35, Boyes is 32, Peach is 42, Melling is 35, Orcollo & Corteza both 35. Maybe John Morra around 25 yrs old, is young.

Also, I think it's difficult to measure anyone to Earl, Efren and even Busty. To me, they all appear to play much by feel with long, smooth flowing strokes. I think they are just taking time before their stroke to get a feel for the cue and also (probably unknowingly) giving themselves a little extra time to focus their eyes (quiet-eye technique) on one point before pulling the trigger. All three of those players have a rhythm to their stroke which allows them the perfect amount of time between looking too long and not long enough. My guess is that they are knowingly or unknowingly zoned into using quiet eye. Researchers claimed that all the great athletes have this in common.

Daren Johnson, who just may be getting too old to know who is young and who is old.

 

[RBC]

Not sure young actually works here in most examples given. A little research shows...

Shane is 31, Alex is 38, Niels 37,

Maybe Dechaine, 27yrs. I guess you could call him young.

World Cup of Pool?
Don't really remember many young players. Appleton is 35, Boyes is 32, Peach is 42, Melling is 35, Orcollo & Corteza both 35. Maybe John Morra around 25 yrs old, is young.

Also, I think it's difficult to measure anyone to Earl, Efren and even Busty. To me, they all appear to play much by feel with long, smooth flowing strokes. I think they are just taking time before their stroke to get a feel for the cue and also (probably unknowingly) giving themselves a little extra time to focus their eyes (quiet-eye technique) on one point before pulling the trigger. All three of those players have a rhythm to their stroke which allows them the perfect amount of time between looking too long and not long enough. My guess is that they are knowingly or unknowingly zoned into using quiet eye. Researchers claimed that all the great athletes have this in common.

Daren Johnson, who just may be getting too old to know who is young and who is old.

I don't think they play by feel as much as by visualization.

To me, they just see the shot and execute it. All the pre-shot routine and warm up strokes are all really about 2 things. The first is getting the eyes to really focus on the aiming point, whatever it is, and the second is to let the brain really digest the shot and tune out everything else.

I don't believe they think about their stroke and whether it's straight or the right speed, or anything. They are looking and zeroing in on the job at hand.

If your eyes and your brain can match up on a specific shot, success is almost inevitable. Regardless of your warm up or measuring strokes.


Royce