Warpage and common misconceptions

[Canadian cue]

I just thought we could start a list of do's don't and knoledge concerning the subject
-Metal rings don't expand wood shrinks
-wood warps not directly from expansion and contraction it warps from uneven change. If your piece of wood is denser one side than the other it stands a good chance to warp under climate change.
-Wood absorbs moisture most from end grain
-Automotive finish shrinks as it cures for much longer than most realise
- the more the materials you use to build are alike the less chance that they will work against each other. ie warp or come apart

If anything I have stated is wrong please correct me these are a few of the general rules I have learnt and not all of them the easy way.

 

[Blue Hog ridr]

And you forgot about your shop helper, Mr. Murphy.

 

[63Kcode]

-Metal rings don't expand wood shrinks-

Don't tell this to the makers of bimetal thermometers

-wood warps not directly from expansion and contraction it warps from uneven change. If your piece of wood is denser one side than the other it stands a good chance to warp under climate change.

I agree

-Wood absorbs moisture most from end grain

Put a drop of water on the side of a sanded maple dowel and let me know if the grain swells even slightly( after reareading this, I agree. I missed the most part!)

-Automotive finish shrinks as it cures for much longer than most realise

After 30 years of painting cars and trucks I will say some shrink more than others but the newer ones are very stable but will move if the substrait/wood shrinks.

- the more the materials you use to build are alike the less chance that they will work against each other. ie warp or come apart

I agree 100%

If anything I have stated is wrong please correct me these are a few of the general rules I have learnt and not all of them the easy way.

I love it when people share knowledge they learned the hard way! Green to you!

Larry

 

[63Kcode]

And you forgot about your shop helper, Mr. Murphy.

Murphy should now and forever more be regarded as "he whos name shall not be mentioned" For fear that just saying his name will cause wood to warp and finishes to bubble!

Larry

 

[Canadian cue]

-Metal rings don't expand wood shrinks-

Don't tell this to the makers of bimetal thermometers

agreed false statement
correction: everything expands and contracts but relatively speaking wood is going to expand and contract much more than metal during enviromental changes. As it relates to cues, if someone tells me there rings are popping I say it is because the wood is shrinking not because the rings expanded...... Agree?

 

[greyghost]

agreed 100%

 

[Dave38]

-Metal rings don't expand wood shrinks-

Don't tell this to the makers of bimetal thermometers

agreed false statement
correction: everything expands and contracts but relatively speaking wood is going to expand and contract much more than metal during enviromental changes. As it relates to cues, if someone tells me there rings are popping I say it is because the wood is shrinking not because the rings expanded...... Agree?

I agree, if you were to measure the diameter of both the wood and metal, before adding rings, and during, and repeatedly afterwards, say, spanning 6 months all together, I'll put good money on the wood being at least 5-6 thou. different each time and the metal being the same 9 out of 10 times of checking. Just my observations after 5 yrs.
Dave

 

[rhncue]

You guys are correct that metal rings do not have much problems swelling or shrinking. However if you will notice, 90% of metal rings are not adjacent to wood either. They almost always have phenolic around them and phenolic does not swell nor shrink much either. What the problem actually is is the finish itself. Finish has a very hard time trying to stick to metal. In fact, without a primer it doesn't stick to metal securely. What we are actually doing is bridging over the metal rings. Once it loses it's adhesion to the metal it rises. As usual, this is just my opinion.

Dick

 

[scdiveteam]

Metal Vs. Wood Expansion

Hi,

Point of clarification concerning thermal expansion / contraction coefficients and linear dimensional parameters concerning wood vs. metal.

There is a lot of math equations and variables here, but to put it in simple terms, metal expands and contracts at a rate that is much higher than wood in general. Each material has it's own specific thermal expansion coefficient.

As an example Aluminum expands about four times grater than hardwood that is subject to the same thermal gradient change. This is called its coefficient of thermal expansion. When this increases, so does the length of the molecular bonds. As a result, solids typically expand in response to heating and contract on cooling.

Wood is more subject to dimensional changes due to moisture and with metal this is a zero factor for practical purposes.

A Cue placed in the truck of a car in the summer can be subject to temperatures of up to 140 degrees and higher depending on the color of the car. The metal rings will expand dimensionally by a factor of about 4 times than that of the wood. This can physically lift the clear coat finish in that pin point area.

This is why I will not install metal rings on my cues. I prefer wood decor rings with colored veneers.

The customer who brings his cue back to you and complains that the finish has lifted over the rings will never admit to putting the cue in the trunk and wants you to refinish his cue because your were the guy who sprayed it.

Can't win that fight so why use metal rings in the cues. This is an age old problem for cue makers, which can be easily solved.

Rick Geschrey

 

[HeLLFiSH]

what about this one: you can warp a shaft by breaking with it. Heard it on Charlie Bryant's Youtube video about tips on breaking, it was shot during SBE 2008.

 

[dave sutton]

Dick sain exactly what i was going to say. Most rings are next to phenolic esp in the joint area and movement still occurs.

I feel the statement that endgrain absorbs more moisture then anything may be true but not much end grain is exposed on a cue. I think in my experiences ive seen more handles warped then forearms.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Dick sain exactly what i was going to say. Most rings are next to phenolic esp in the joint area and movement still occurs.

I feel the statement that endgrain absorbs more moisture then anything may be true but not much end grain is exposed on a cue. I think in my experiences ive seen more handles warped then forearms.

Which leads me to believe people are joining their forearms to the handles when they are in oversized rod form instead of tapered ( mutliple times ) and seasoned.

 

[dave sutton]

i understand could be. i personally put my cue together almost to size. i think more that the handle isnt properlt sealed like the forearm therefore more susceptible to the elements

 

[manwon]

You guys are correct that metal rings do not have much problems swelling or shrinking. However if you will notice, 90% of metal rings are not adjacent to wood either. They almost always have phenolic around them and phenolic does not swell nor shrink much either. What the problem actually is is the finish itself. Finish has a very hard time trying to stick to metal. In fact, without a primer it doesn't stick to metal securely. What we are actually doing is bridging over the metal rings. Once it loses it's adhesion to the metal it rises. As usual, this is just my opinion.

Dick

I like you opinion Dick, I think it is better than any I have ever heard.

 

[97Buick22]

This is a great post as not all know these factors come in to play when making a cue. Just look at your shaft when you get it new. Play with it for a while and you will feel that the ferrule is bigger than the shaft. This is an easy way to show that wood shrinks over time. Dick has a excellent point that most put the metal or aluminum rings surrounded by phenolic to help with movement. I think the answer lies in the finish as well.... Just my 2 cents.

 

[ratcues]

One of the biggest misconceptions I come across is how much you can move the balance point of a cue. People think you can add an ounce and move it an inch. Its not that easy or even possible.

 

[cueman]

-Metal rings don't expand wood shrinks-

Don't tell this to the makers of bimetal thermometers

agreed false statement
correction: everything expands and contracts but relatively speaking wood is going to expand and contract much more than metal during enviromental changes. As it relates to cues, if someone tells me there rings are popping I say it is because the wood is shrinking not because the rings expanded...... Agree?

Most metal rings popping through the finish are not in between two pieces of wood. They are most often in between two pieces of plastic or phenolic. Plastics, phenolics and metals all swell or shrink at different rates when the cue is exposed to heat or cold. I have seen metal rings that were larger than they were when originally installed. I have also seen phenolics that were larger and also smaller than when originally installed. But with softer plastics they usually wound up larger and not smaller. So After 20 plus years I still do not know exactly what is going to happen to Phenolic, Plastic, or metal rings when exposed to severe temperature and moisture changes.
So metal washer type of rings no longer go into my cues unless it is under duress. But I will tend to agree that most size changes you feel between phenolic rings and wood is usually the wood moving the most. The worst rings I ever used were the old cotton fiber rings. They might pop through and keep coming more than a 1/32" out on each side.

 

[scdiveteam]

Most metal rings popping through the finish are not in between two pieces of wood. They are most often in between two pieces of plastic or phenolic. Plastics, phenolics and metals all swell or shrink at different rates when the cue is exposed to heat or cold. I have seen metal rings that were larger than they were when originally installed. I have also seen phenolics that were larger and also smaller than when originally installed. But with softer plastics they usually wound up larger and not smaller. So After 20 plus years I still do not know exactly what is going to happen to Phenolic, Plastic, or metal rings when exposed to severe temperature and moisture changes.
So metal washer type of rings no longer go into my cues unless it is under duress. But I will tend to agree that most size changes you feel between phenolic rings and wood is usually the wood moving the most. The worst rings I ever used were the old cotton fiber rings. They might pop through and keep coming more than a 1/32" out on each side.

Amen Chris,

Tap Tap Tap to a Master Cue Maker and teacher to us all!!!!!

Rick