Washing the CB

[CreeDo]

the mountain should get steeper the higher up the player climbs.
Yes, the CB and OBs and table get dirtier the longer the run goes on.
Perhaps the humidity (and sweat) factor goes up too. And that's what makes a high run so great.
We should't be putting escalators on Mt. Everest.

I'm hearing a contradiction here.

On the one hand you mention that many players make great runs without a single cleaning,
and play 1pocket the same way. That seems to imply that cleaning is unnecessary,
and that players can get the same results whether they clean or not.

On the other hand you liken it to 'putting an escalator on Mt. Everest',
implying it hugely increases the ease of getting results.

So is cleaning an unnecessary waste of time that has no relevance to the outcome?
Or is it a game-changer that has a huge impact on the outcome?

As an aside ---

There's an interesting article I read once on "Fake difficulty" in video games.

In a nutshell, it illustrates the distinction between a game that's hard because you can get
unlucky and die several times to random things you can't predict or control, and a game that's hard because
it demands really tricky timing or movement or coordination from the player.

Same outcome (the player ties a million times, keeps dying, and finally succeeds)
but one is rewarding for both the player and any spectator who appreciates skill,
and the other is... well... just boring bad luck.

Having to deal with skids is fake difficulty. The player didn't lose due to poor decision-making or poor execution.
He lost to bad luck. There's no value in that.

What makes high runs so great, isn't that the player managed not to get unlucky for hours.
It's the fact that their planning and execution are relentlessly consistent even as the pressure builds.

So what if everyone decides, "Oh. Having the CB cleaned every dozen or so shots
cuts down on skids. I think I'll start doing that."

Then, you have problems because of time, CBs and/or markers being dropped and moving balls
(like they were during LVC run), and you're introducing the likelihood of arguments about where exactly the CB was.
[snip] I mean, why stop at cleaning one ball when you have nine to 15 other potential culprits on the table?

This is a logical fallacy, though I can't recall the exact term for it.

"What if everyone started using Segways? People would get fat from not walking,
ramps would have to be installed for all buildings, cars would run into them more,
bicycle companies would go out of business!"

You're inventing a problem that doesn't exist and never will.

It's not an infectious disease. We're never going to see 500 people demand a full rack cleaning
every ten minutes. It's not like "clean balls = less skids" is some new thing players
just discovered in 2016 and we're at the start of a ten year ball-cleaning fad.

In the end, doesn't this boil down to "I got bored watching Lee Van's run because of the ball-cleaning?"

...that's fine, but it's Lee Van's run, and he paid money to enter, so of course he's going to value
keeping the cue ball clean more than he's going to value keeping viewers entertained
for those extra few seconds.

 

[Corwyn_8]

My point is that cleaning the CB every rack is unusual for pool.

So what should we do to make it more common? Clearly that is a better way to go to improve 14.1 (longer runs, more skill based).

Thank you kindly.

 

[Corwyn_8]

From the player's point of view, "I'm playing for my livelihood and need equipment in good shape; they replace baseballs every time they touch the ground!"
From the spectator's view, "quit stopping the match to clean the cue ball and play!"

Why not just have two (matched) cue balls. No time wasted cleaning balls, but a clean on whenever you need it. Done.

Thank you kindly.

 

[alstl]

I keep a sheet of paper towel in two pockets and I clean the chalk off the cue ball every rack when I'm playing 14.1.

Doesn't take long and helps prevent problems.

 

[Dagwoodz]

{snip}This is a logical fallacy, though I can't recall the exact term for it.

"What if everyone started using Segways? People would get fat from not walking,
ramps would have to be installed for all buildings, cars would run into them more,
bicycle companies would go out of business!" {snip}

I think the term you are looking for is Straw Man Argument...maybe.

 

[dmgwalsh]

For anyone stimulated via this thread to see or order one of the position markers
(mighty hard to find in my experience) just being helpful, no proprietary interest:
View attachment 411232
I’ve been playing 14.1 for 64 years and this is the best price (see link below) that I've ever seen ($4.73), on one of these hard to find ball position markers (and with free shipping yet). I sincerely hope the mold maker and the ejection mold operator get at least a fair living wage at the Chinese manufacturing plant, and are adult workers. No chance of OSHA-quality health standards for them unfortunately.

I ordered one and mine arrived from China only a week after ordering and it's not only beautiful, flawlessly clear acrylic, but it's dead-on accurate with regard to an extremely perfect fit against the standard 2 1/4 cue ball. Not a whisker of a gap.

http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-13002254-Crystal+Position+Marker+for+Snooker+Pool+Ball.html

(They also sell one that’s perfect for Snooker-size balls.)

Arnaldo

I can't believe Lou is still talking about this. Way too much time on his hands.

Arnaldo: These are exactly the ball markers I had. I bought five and gave a few out. Not sure but Mika might've knicked one. I think I will buy a bunch more for next year so everyone will have one.

We love giving the players the best playing conditions possible. We clean the balls religiously, wipe down the tables. We call fouls according to the WPA rules rather than the "character" rules downstairs. The conditions are great for the best game around.

I just got off the phone with Greg Sullivan. He is ecstatic about the way our event has grown and the popularity of it. He says he is going to get us another table. Hopefully, it keeps growing.

 

[lfigueroa]

As it happens, someone sent me a link and I just ordered one.

It doesn't come with Michaela.

Alas.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

So we should put sand on the high jump track???

No clue what that means.

Lou Figueroa
not a T&F guy

 

[lfigueroa]

Since its not a true dbl elim. event, these kinda things come up. Match play, ya do see guys wiping down whitey while some are still rackin' no big deal.

Unusual....sounds right.

But come on Lou, remember were dealing with pool players.
And being able to do this probably gave him an advantage, and pool players are Always lookin' for that little extra somethin'''' .:thumbup2:

Just thought it was excessive. And if you're willing to do it for one you must be willing to do it for all. It makes more sense to me to draw line somewhere.... maybe in the high jump sand

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

For anyone stimulated via this thread to see or order one of the position markers
(mighty hard to find in my experience) just being helpful, no proprietary interest:
View attachment 411232
I’ve been playing 14.1 for 64 years and this is the best price (see link below) that I've ever seen ($4.73), on one of these hard to find ball position markers (and with free shipping yet). I sincerely hope the mold maker and the ejection mold operator get at least a fair living wage at the Chinese manufacturing plant, and are adult workers. No chance of OSHA-quality health standards for them unfortunately.

I ordered one and mine arrived from China only a week after ordering and it's not only beautiful, flawlessly clear acrylic, but it's dead-on accurate with regard to an extremely perfect fit against the standard 2 1/4 cue ball. Not a whisker of a gap.

http://www.suntekstore.com/goods-13002254-Crystal+Position+Marker+for+Snooker+Pool+Ball.html

(They also sell one that’s perfect for Snooker-size balls.)

Arnaldo

Maybe the 14.1 Challenge guys can get a discount on a gross.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I have no horse in this race but here's how I will do it when I rule the world:

* In rotation games and 8-ball, you can clean the ball between racks or after a foul (i.e., any time you can legally pick up the cue ball.)
* In 14.1 you can clean the ball after a scratch or you can get an official to clean the ball between racks.

One exception: if the match allows player breaks, an official can clean the cue ball during a player breaks.

In other words, under my benevolent rule you can't stop the game just to clean the cue ball. The penalty for an infraction shall be a "Turtle Baker".

Truly, krupa, you would be a wise and benevolent ruler.

Lou Figueroa
all bow

 

[lfigueroa]

Given the estimates I have seen of a 1/200 chance of a skid, that may well be exactly the difference between a 225 ball run and a 155 ball one. Sounds, to me, like more people should be making the same request. I just don't see the macho appeal in losing because of some dirt.

Thank you kindly.

well, shoot then. Why not after every shot?

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I'm hearing a contradiction here.

On the one hand you mention that many players make great runs without a single cleaning,
and play 1pocket the same way. That seems to imply that cleaning is unnecessary,
and that players can get the same results whether they clean or not.

On the other hand you liken it to 'putting an escalator on Mt. Everest',
implying it hugely increases the ease of getting results.

So is cleaning an unnecessary waste of time that has no relevance to the outcome?
Or is it a game-changer that has a huge impact on the outcome?

As an aside ---

There's an interesting article I read once on "Fake difficulty" in video games.

In a nutshell, it illustrates the distinction between a game that's hard because you can get
unlucky and die several times to random things you can't predict or control, and a game that's hard because
it demands really tricky timing or movement or coordination from the player.

Same outcome (the player ties a million times, keeps dying, and finally succeeds)
but one is rewarding for both the player and any spectator who appreciates skill,
and the other is... well... just boring bad luck.

Having to deal with skids is fake difficulty. The player didn't lose due to poor decision-making or poor execution.
He lost to bad luck. There's no value in that.

What makes high runs so great, isn't that the player managed not to get unlucky for hours.
It's the fact that their planning and execution are relentlessly consistent even as the pressure builds.



This is a logical fallacy, though I can't recall the exact term for it.

"What if everyone started using Segways? People would get fat from not walking,
ramps would have to be installed for all buildings, cars would run into them more,
bicycle companies would go out of business!"

You're inventing a problem that doesn't exist and never will.

It's not an infectious disease. We're never going to see 500 people demand a full rack cleaning
every ten minutes. It's not like "clean balls = less skids" is some new thing players
just discovered in 2016 and we're at the start of a ten year ball-cleaning fad.

In the end, doesn't this boil down to "I got bored watching Lee Van's run because of the ball-cleaning?"

...that's fine, but it's Lee Van's run, and he paid money to enter, so of course he's going to value
keeping the cue ball clean more than he's going to value keeping viewers entertained
for those extra few seconds.

Maybe it helps, maybe it does not. Maybe it has a placebo effect.

But if players perceive it to be a plus, you do not know what will become more prevalent, whether it's gloves, LD shafts, sticky chalk, cue extensions, or more frequent CB cleaning.

So no, it doesn't boil down to getting bored. It boils don to be surprised they cleaned the CB so often in the context of what is and has been the norm and what might happen in the future if everyone gets CB cleaning happy. It was still a run worth watching.

oh, and guys pay to get into all kinds of events.

Lou Figueroa
talk about
getting it wrong...

 

[lfigueroa]

So what should we do to make it more common? Clearly that is a better way to go to improve 14.1 (longer runs, more skill based).

Thank you kindly.

IMO, it will not be good for the game if it becomes more common, whether at the DCC 14.1 Challenge or the US Open 14.1, or any other event.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

Why not just have two (matched) cue balls. No time wasted cleaning balls, but a clean on whenever you need it. Done.

Thank you kindly.

Still would have to pick up the ball and do the switch.

And don't forget, you might as well have 15 OBs ready to go in case they (gasp) pick up a little smooge.

Lou Figueroa

 

[lfigueroa]

I can't believe Lou is still talking about this. Way too much time on his hands.

Arnaldo: These are exactly the ball markers I had. I bought five and gave a few out. Not sure but Mika might've knicked one. I think I will buy a bunch more for next year so everyone will have one.

We love giving the players the best playing conditions possible. We clean the balls religiously, wipe down the tables. We call fouls according to the WPA rules rather than the "character" rules downstairs. The conditions are great for the best game around.

I just got off the phone with Greg Sullivan. He is ecstatic about the way our event has grown and the popularity of it. He says he is going to get us another table. Hopefully, it keeps growing.

Well, here you are, twice in my thread, Dennis. Obviously you also have a wee too much time to spend.

BTW, Dennis, in future years for the 14.1 Challenge at the DCC you should provide an extra CB for the players to rack with. Seems some guys who can run a lot of balls tend to forget where the spot is when they have a low break ball.

Lou Figueroa
just tryin' to help

 

[GideonF]

Alas.



Lou Figueroa

Yes, Michaela is a lass. A bonny lass at that.

Gideon

 

[lfigueroa]

Yes, Michaela is a lass. A bonny lass at that.

Gideon

Indeed.

Lou Figueroa
My love is like...

 

[easy-e]

Well, here you are, twice in my thread, Dennis. Obviously you also have a wee too much time to spend.

BTW, Dennis, in future years for the 14.1 Challenge at the DCC you should provide an extra CB for the players to rack with. Seems some guys who can run a lot of balls tend to forget where the spot is when they have a low break ball.

Lou Figueroa
just tryin' to help

Integrity brought into it. Shit just got real!

 

[dmgwalsh]

BTW, Dennis, in future years for the 14.1 Challenge at the DCC you should provide an extra CB for the players to rack with. Seems some guys who can run a lot of balls tend to forget where the spot is when they have a low break ball.

Lou Figueroa
just tryin' to help

We draw the triangle with a sharpie in the two tables that were ours. I may have drawn a triangle in the other room with a chalk pencil, but things were kind of hectic and I don't remember.

So who is it you are accusing of cheating?