Watching live versus online

Tin Man

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Like many of you, I really enjoy watching top pool. Youtube is outstanding with high definition matches from all of our favorite international stars, and facebook streams are exciting as they bring live action right into our living rooms. But something gets lost in translation. For those that haven't attended these types of events in person I want to share some of the interesting dynamics that can develop that make sitting in the bleachers a much more profound experience.

Take for example the match between SVB vs Archer for the hot seat in today's Turning Stone XXX. On a screen it would be straight forward; Shane is an 820 Fargorate, Johnny is around 775, ba-da-bing, both good players, SVB is the favorite but Johnny is more than capable, they'll both shoot good pool, let's see how it runs out. But in person I picked on something else. For some strange reason I felt like SVB was feeling pressured to impress Johnny. It's not that Archer doesn't know how SVB plays plenty well at this point, but nevertheless I got this really weird feeling like he was a kid trying to live up to his dad's expectations. It was almost like he wasn't competing against Johnny today, he was competing with how Johnny remembered playing 15-25 years ago. I know, that's a strange read, but it was almost tangible. I also think SVB is so strong it's hard for him to feel threatened, he knows he can play his B game and win, and even if he drops a set he knows he can likely beat Hunter and then it's the same one set finals either way. Meanwhile Johnny was clearly not feeling confident. On the one hand he knows he's Johnny Archer and is a champion. On the other hand he knows he is 50, and he's not dominant, and not at SVB's level. So he's Johnny Archer, but is he still Johnny Archer? On tough shots he has to contend with these doubts, like "I know when I was 30 I could've run out here, but can I do it today?" Combine that with the mental pressure of playing the king of the hill, combined with the physical challenge of not getting many opportunities, and he was really struggling to offer any resistance. Then, in turn, it was like SVB felt bad for Johnny. SVB was having a hard time to put him away, Johnny was helpless to turn things around, and it was almost sad to watch, but bearable because of the obvious mutual respect and camaraderie between them.

Meanwhile Hunter had just beaten Erik H in a set that was fairly easy. He had been playing amazing all tournament but it was a little patchy starting out. He got a few big rolls early like missing the entire ball going in on a 7 ball cut and then kicking it cross side by accident and winning the first game, etc. Erik made a few uncharacteristic turn overs. While Hunter clearly made some good shots and runs, he didn't play that well yet won without much challenge.

So then watching Johnny's next match with Hunter was very exciting. Hunter has to deal with the pressure of facing a champion that is higher rated (and one who beat him on the winner's side from down 8-6 earlier), being one set away from the finals of the event for the first time, and knowing that he had just stumbled through a set and was fortunate to have dodged an elimination that might have come if Erik had punished him. Meanwhile Johnny was wounded. Seriously wounded. In practicing between matches Johnny couldn't execute anything. Missing cut shots repeatedly, speed control off, rattling balls, missing banks, jerky and tight. His game had just completely collapsed so he was dealing with all of the doubts and fears about his game slipping. To have to get into the arena again in that state can be like being on stage without pants on. As it turned out they both played pretty well, and it was a very hard fought set. They both made some critical errors, but make no mistake they both found their game and played some very strong pool as well. In the end while there was only one winner, they both won in the sense that they overcame those mental challenges and delivered a great set overall.

To me this was one of the most interesting sets of the tournament. Watching SVB front run the finals was anticlimactic and the outcome was never truly in question after SVB ran a few racks to go up 6-1. So while there were some nice run outs from both players (and they both played much better than the hot seat match), it didn't have the same drama that the semi finals did.

While we can't read minds, being up close and personal some things come across so clearly it really allows a different picture to develop, like going from 2D to 3D. It's awesome to watch how these champions handle themselves in the face of the pressures that come from these situations, be it how they warm up, how they sit in the chair, how they engage the audience, etc. We all know that pool is a mental game at this level and that doesn't translate well to a screen.

I will continue to watch pool on Youtube and Facebook, but if you get the chance please take the opportunity to go watch these matches live. It's also a great treat for the players to have fans applauding and rooting them on, and you get to meet some amazing people along the way. If you're reading this maybe I'll bump into you, feel free to introduce yourself. I'll be the guy sporting the "Fargo Billiards" hat. :wink:
 
T Man....I watched your hill-hill match with Shaw from ten feet away....
...you're right, live is a lot better....in contention for best match I saw this tournament.
 
Like many of you, I really enjoy watching top pool. Youtube is outstanding with high definition matches from all of our favorite international stars, and facebook streams are exciting as they bring live action right into our living rooms. But something gets lost in translation. For those that haven't attended these types of events in person I want to share some of the interesting dynamics that can develop that make sitting in the bleachers a much more profound experience.

Take for example the match between SVB vs Archer for the hot seat in today's Turning Stone XXX. On a screen it would be straight forward; Shane is an 820 Fargorate, Johnny is around 775, ba-da-bing, both good players, SVB is the favorite but Johnny is more than capable, they'll both shoot good pool, let's see how it runs out. But in person I picked on something else. For some strange reason I felt like SVB was feeling pressured to impress Johnny. It's not that Archer doesn't know how SVB plays plenty well at this point, but nevertheless I got this really weird feeling like he was a kid trying to live up to his dad's expectations. It was almost like he wasn't competing against Johnny today, he was competing with how Johnny remembered playing 15-25 years ago. I know, that's a strange read, but it was almost tangible. I also think SVB is so strong it's hard for him to feel threatened, he knows he can play his B game and win, and even if he drops a set he knows he can likely beat Hunter and then it's the same one set finals either way. Meanwhile Johnny was clearly not feeling confident. On the one hand he knows he's Johnny Archer and is a champion. On the other hand he knows he is 50, and he's not dominant, and not at SVB's level. So he's Johnny Archer, but is he still Johnny Archer? On tough shots he has to contend with these doubts, like "I know when I was 30 I could've run out here, but can I do it today?" Combine that with the mental pressure of playing the king of the hill, combined with the physical challenge of not getting many opportunities, and he was really struggling to offer any resistance. Then, in turn, it was like SVB felt bad for Johnny. SVB was having a hard time to put him away, Johnny was helpless to turn things around, and it was almost sad to watch, but bearable because of the obvious mutual respect and camaraderie between them.

Meanwhile Hunter had just beaten Erik H in a set that was fairly easy. He had been playing amazing all tournament but it was a little patchy starting out. He got a few big rolls early like missing the entire ball going in on a 7 ball cut and then kicking it cross side by accident and winning the first game, etc. Erik made a few uncharacteristic turn overs. While Hunter clearly made some good shots and runs, he didn't play that well yet won without much challenge.

So then watching Johnny's next match with Hunter was very exciting. Hunter has to deal with the pressure of facing a champion that is higher rated (and one who beat him on the winner's side from down 8-6 earlier), being one set away from the finals of the event for the first time, and knowing that he had just stumbled through a set and was fortunate to have dodged an elimination that might have come if Erik had punished him. Meanwhile Johnny was wounded. Seriously wounded. In practicing between matches Johnny couldn't execute anything. Missing cut shots repeatedly, speed control off, rattling balls, missing banks, jerky and tight. His game had just completely collapsed so he was dealing with all of the doubts and fears about his game slipping. To have to get into the arena again in that state can be like being on stage without pants on. As it turned out they both played pretty well, and it was a very hard fought set. They both made some critical errors, but make no mistake they both found their game and played some very strong pool as well. In the end while there was only one winner, they both won in the sense that they overcame those mental challenges and delivered a great set overall.

To me this was one of the most interesting sets of the tournament. Watching SVB front run the finals was anticlimactic and the outcome was never truly in question after SVB ran a few racks to go up 6-1. So while there were some nice run outs from both players (and they both played much better than the hot seat match), it didn't have the same drama that the semi finals did.

While we can't read minds, being up close and personal some things come across so clearly it really allows a different picture to develop, like going from 2D to 3D. It's awesome to watch how these champions handle themselves in the face of the pressures that come from these situations, be it how they warm up, how they sit in the chair, how they engage the audience, etc. We all know that pool is a mental game at this level and that doesn't translate well to a screen.

I will continue to watch pool on Youtube and Facebook, but if you get the chance please take the opportunity to go watch these matches live. It's also a great treat for the players to have fans applauding and rooting them on, and you get to meet some amazing people along the way. If you're reading this maybe I'll bump into you, feel free to introduce yourself. I'll be the guy sporting the "Fargo Billiards" hat. :wink:

This is a great write up! You would do good commentary I'm sure. Like you Demetrius, I try to follow all the little nuances in how a player looks prior to a match and how they are preparing. The moment I hear the first inkling of an excuse (I didn't get enough sleep last night, I'm a little hungry now, I lost the tip on my best shaft, etc. etc.) I know this is a player getting ready to lose!

Then I study their body language with each other, how they address and talk to each other before the match starts. I want to see if a player looks calm and focused or irritable and anxious. Often, I see what looks like some "deal" being discussed, which can alter the way a match is played and even the outcome. Finally, some players are more comfortable depending on who they are playing, especially if they've beaten that player before. There is definitely a carry over effect in pool where players remember previous matches. And lastly, both players KNOW who the better player is and often times act accordingly if you know what I mean.

One last thing which I'm sure you're also aware of. Many times you will see players playing up to the level of their competition. What I mean by that, is that if their opponent is not playing that well, they may also not play their best game, and if their opponent is playing good, they will have to step up their game as well.

The trick in doing commentary is being able to explain all this in the fewest words possible. I learned long ago that long winded explanations are BORING! Keep it short and sweet whenever possible. To be succinct is a blessing that good commentators have. Okay, class over. :thumbup:
 
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First off, TinMan...it was a well played tournament by many, including yourself.

The more pool I watch over the years has me realizing too that LIVE is by far the best way to enjoy it. But for me, it's a whole 'nother reason as to why.

My problem is that I'm sick-and-tired of all these confounded announcers/commentators second-guessing an 800 Fargo-rated player's shots and them feeling the need to tell us what THEY would do in that same situation. They also try to guess what the player is going to do for position on darn near every shot they have, many times guessing wrong and making themselves look stupid for thinking they know exactly what (and where) the player is going to do with the cue ball. It wouldn't be so irritating except they do it on just about every shot...even one where everyone on the stream already knows what the player is going to do next.

This turning Stone stream was no different. Although I think her to be a fantastic representative for the game of pool, when Jennifer Barretta and some other guy were in the booth together, their predicted shot selections almost always differed from one another. It made for a very distracting stream. I like to guess for myself from my chair how I think the shot is going to go, and I like to see if I guessed correctly, but I don't feel the need to have to open my mouth and tell someone so that I may impress them with my masterful pool knowledge.

Some would say that I could mute the stream, but I like to hear the sounds of the balls hitting, the applause, players comments (when mic'ed), etc. I just feel like it's a bit much when the commentators think they have to be saying something during the entire stream. Heck it's pool...fairly self-explanatory. Maybe not to the casual viewers, but it's not those types of people that are watching anyway.

Maniac
 
The trick in doing commentary is being able to explain all this in the fewest words possible. I learned long ago that long winded explanations are BORING! Keep it short and sweet whenever possible. To be succinct is a blessing that good commentators have. Okay, class over. :thumbup:

Thank you Jay. I just wrote about this as you were typing. You are one of the better commentators out there.

Maniac
 
Damn Tinman you are a class act!
Need to come back to the LitleApple just to meet you.
 
It's always about the story more than about the game/match.

The golf industry has mastered this....and it shows....and it PAYS.



Jeff Livingston
 
Hopefully I'll be back in the twin cities afore too long...

Like many of you, I really enjoy watching top pool. Youtube is outstanding with high definition matches from all of our favorite international stars, and facebook streams are exciting as they bring live action right into our living rooms. But something gets lost in translation. For those that haven't attended these types of events in person I want to share some of the interesting dynamics that can develop that make sitting in the bleachers a much more profound experience.

Take for example the match between SVB vs Archer for the hot seat in today's Turning Stone XXX. On a screen it would be straight forward; Shane is an 820 Fargorate, Johnny is around 775, ba-da-bing, both good players, SVB is the favorite but Johnny is more than capable, they'll both shoot good pool, let's see how it runs out. But in person I picked on something else. For some strange reason I felt like SVB was feeling pressured to impress Johnny. It's not that Archer doesn't know how SVB plays plenty well at this point, but nevertheless I got this really weird feeling like he was a kid trying to live up to his dad's expectations. It was almost like he wasn't competing against Johnny today, he was competing with how Johnny remembered playing 15-25 years ago. I know, that's a strange read, but it was almost tangible. I also think SVB is so strong it's hard for him to feel threatened, he knows he can play his B game and win, and even if he drops a set he knows he can likely beat Hunter and then it's the same one set finals either way. Meanwhile Johnny was clearly not feeling confident. On the one hand he knows he's Johnny Archer and is a champion. On the other hand he knows he is 50, and he's not dominant, and not at SVB's level. So he's Johnny Archer, but is he still Johnny Archer? On tough shots he has to contend with these doubts, like "I know when I was 30 I could've run out here, but can I do it today?" Combine that with the mental pressure of playing the king of the hill, combined with the physical challenge of not getting many opportunities, and he was really struggling to offer any resistance. Then, in turn, it was like SVB felt bad for Johnny. SVB was having a hard time to put him away, Johnny was helpless to turn things around, and it was almost sad to watch, but bearable because of the obvious mutual respect and camaraderie between them.

Meanwhile Hunter had just beaten Erik H in a set that was fairly easy. He had been playing amazing all tournament but it was a little patchy starting out. He got a few big rolls early like missing the entire ball going in on a 7 ball cut and then kicking it cross side by accident and winning the first game, etc. Erik made a few uncharacteristic turn overs. While Hunter clearly made some good shots and runs, he didn't play that well yet won without much challenge.

So then watching Johnny's next match with Hunter was very exciting. Hunter has to deal with the pressure of facing a champion that is higher rated (and one who beat him on the winner's side from down 8-6 earlier), being one set away from the finals of the event for the first time, and knowing that he had just stumbled through a set and was fortunate to have dodged an elimination that might have come if Erik had punished him. Meanwhile Johnny was wounded. Seriously wounded. In practicing between matches Johnny couldn't execute anything. Missing cut shots repeatedly, speed control off, rattling balls, missing banks, jerky and tight. His game had just completely collapsed so he was dealing with all of the doubts and fears about his game slipping. To have to get into the arena again in that state can be like being on stage without pants on. As it turned out they both played pretty well, and it was a very hard fought set. They both made some critical errors, but make no mistake they both found their game and played some very strong pool as well. In the end while there was only one winner, they both won in the sense that they overcame those mental challenges and delivered a great set overall.

To me this was one of the most interesting sets of the tournament. Watching SVB front run the finals was anticlimactic and the outcome was never truly in question after SVB ran a few racks to go up 6-1. So while there were some nice run outs from both players (and they both played much better than the hot seat match), it didn't have the same drama that the semi finals did.

While we can't read minds, being up close and personal some things come across so clearly it really allows a different picture to develop, like going from 2D to 3D. It's awesome to watch how these champions handle themselves in the face of the pressures that come from these situations, be it how they warm up, how they sit in the chair, how they engage the audience, etc. We all know that pool is a mental game at this level and that doesn't translate well to a screen.

I will continue to watch pool on Youtube and Facebook, but if you get the chance please take the opportunity to go watch these matches live. It's also a great treat for the players to have fans applauding and rooting them on, and you get to meet some amazing people along the way. If you're reading this maybe I'll bump into you, feel free to introduce yourself. I'll be the guy sporting the "Fargo Billiards" hat. :wink:

Sorry we didn't get a chance to play last time I was in town. Hopefully, I'll be back soon so we can play again...

Jaden
 
First off, TinMan...it was a well played tournament by many, including yourself.

The more pool I watch over the years has me realizing too that LIVE is by far the best way to enjoy it. But for me, it's a whole 'nother reason as to why.

My problem is that I'm sick-and-tired of all these confounded announcers/commentators second-guessing an 800 Fargo-rated player's shots and them feeling the need to tell us what THEY would do in that same situation. They also try to guess what the player is going to do for position on darn near every shot they have, many times guessing wrong and making themselves look stupid for thinking they know exactly what (and where) the player is going to do with the cue ball. It wouldn't be so irritating except they do it on just about every shot...even one where everyone on the stream already knows what the player is going to do next.

This turning Stone stream was no different. Although I think her to be a fantastic representative for the game of pool, when Jennifer Barretta and some other guy were in the booth together, their predicted shot selections almost always differed from one another. It made for a very distracting stream. I like to guess for myself from my chair how I think the shot is going to go, and I like to see if I guessed correctly, but I don't feel the need to have to open my mouth and tell someone so that I may impress them with my masterful pool knowledge.

Some would say that I could mute the stream, but I like to hear the sounds of the balls hitting, the applause, players comments (when mic'ed), etc. I just feel like it's a bit much when the commentators think they have to be saying something during the entire stream. Heck it's pool...fairly self-explanatory. Maybe not to the casual viewers, but it's not those types of people that are watching anyway.

Maniac
Before the final match, Upstate Al told Jennifer Barretta and Michael Yednak (the other guy) to keep talking so that the background music can not be heard clearly. That music, which is piped in by the Turning Stone Casino, and can't be turned off, is copyrighted music. Facebook will shut down a stream when the copyrighted music is clearly heard. That's the reason for the constant chatter by the Jennifer and Michael.
 
Before the final match, Upstate Al told Jennifer Barretta and Michael Yednak (the other guy) to keep talking so that the background music can not be heard clearly. That music, which is piped in by the Turning Stone Casino, and can't be turned off, is copyrighted music. Facebook will shut down a stream when the copyrighted music is clearly heard. That's the reason for the constant chatter by the Jennifer and Michael.

Well that explains that, but it is still just as annoying nonetheless. Why can't just one of the commentators (play-by-play in other sports) be the chosen one to try to pre-pattern the shot selection of the players instead of both of them semi-bickering about it?

Maniac
 
Before the final match, Upstate Al told Jennifer Barretta and Michael Yednak (the other guy) to keep talking so that the background music can not be heard clearly. That music, which is piped in by the Turning Stone Casino, and can't be turned off, is copyrighted music. Facebook will shut down a stream when the copyrighted music is clearly heard. That's the reason for the constant chatter by the Jennifer and Michael.

Makes me glad I dumped facebook recently.

There are alternatives to that control-freak system.



Jeff Livingston
 
... The trick in doing commentary is being able to explain all this in the fewest words possible. I learned long ago that long winded explanations are BORING! Keep it short and sweet whenever possible. To be succinct is a blessing that good commentators have. Okay, class over. :thumbup:

Yes, yes, yes.

... Some would say that I could mute the stream, but I like to hear the sounds of the balls hitting, the applause, players comments (when mic'ed), etc. I just feel like it's a bit much when the commentators think they have to be saying something during the entire stream. Heck it's pool...fairly self-explanatory. Maybe not to the casual viewers, but it's not those types of people that are watching anyway. ...

It's a common failing by commentators to think (or do it without thinking) that they must completely fill the air time with their jabber.

Before the final match, Upstate Al told Jennifer Barretta and Michael Yednak (the other guy) to keep talking so that the background music can not be heard clearly. That music, which is piped in by the Turning Stone Casino, and can't be turned off, is copyrighted music. Facebook will shut down a stream when the copyrighted music is clearly heard. That's the reason for the constant chatter by the Jennifer and Michael.

That's what Al said, yes, but some other people seemed to think he was wrong about that. I don't know. But if it is true that Facebook would shut it down because of the rather low-level background music, then that's yet another reason for not using Facebook for such streams. The muting, and constant jabber in lieu of muting, was undesirable.

As for Yednak, I've heard him on many streams. He is knowledgeable and makes many good points, but he is verbose.
 
First off, TinMan...it was a well played tournament by many, including yourself.

The more pool I watch over the years has me realizing too that LIVE is by far the best way to enjoy it. But for me, it's a whole 'nother reason as to why.

My problem is that I'm sick-and-tired of all these confounded announcers/commentators second-guessing an 800 Fargo-rated player's shots and them feeling the need to tell us what THEY would do in that same situation. They also try to guess what the player is going to do for position on darn near every shot they have, many times guessing wrong and making themselves look stupid for thinking they know exactly what (and where) the player is going to do with the cue ball. It wouldn't be so irritating except they do it on just about every shot...even one where everyone on the stream already knows what the player is going to do next.

This turning Stone stream was no different. Although I think her to be a fantastic representative for the game of pool, when Jennifer Barretta and some other guy were in the booth together, their predicted shot selections almost always differed from one another. It made for a very distracting stream. I like to guess for myself from my chair how I think the shot is going to go, and I like to see if I guessed correctly, but I don't feel the need to have to open my mouth and tell someone so that I may impress them with my masterful pool knowledge.

Some would say that I could mute the stream, but I like to hear the sounds of the balls hitting, the applause, players comments (when mic'ed), etc. I just feel like it's a bit much when the commentators think they have to be saying something during the entire stream. Heck it's pool...fairly self-explanatory. Maybe not to the casual viewers, but it's not those types of people that are watching anyway.

Maniac

Some good points here. Commentators should just shut up when players are talking! Viewers very much want to hear what the players are saying and so do I! I totally agree that much of the time the game is self explanatory and needs no commentary, except to maybe throw in a little tidbit of info like the upcoming match or another important score in a match going on. Even then this should be said when the player is walking around and looking, not when he/she is down shooting!

Less commentary is often better than more commentary, especially during a well played match. Of course as a commentator you have little control over the other com. I have worked matches with guys who won't shut up and want to impress with all their knowledge. Between matches I may quietly advise them to maybe talk in shorter sentences and not give long analysis on shot after shot. Some guys take it the right way and some can be offended. I'm fortunate to have worked with some of the best in the business though. :thumbup2:
 
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Some good points here.
Less commentary is often better than more commentary, especially during a well played match.

My opinion: if the video is clear and the balls are easily recognizable, the rotation games like 9-Ball and 10-Ball need very little commentary because viewers are able to see for themselves what the player probably will do....how the 1-ball leads to the 2-ball, etc.

But, 1-Pocket, 14.1, and 8-Ball offer a wider variety of shot selections and therefore may require more intelligent and succinct commentary.

Billy Incardona is very good at managing this tricky balancing act.
 
In my opinion, in person is hands down the best way to view a match or tournament. That's why they call it sweating a match because you feel (sense) everything about the match. Something that just cant be done from behind a screen.
 
In my opinion, in person is hands down the best way to view a match or tournament. That's why they call it sweating a match because you feel (sense) everything about the match. Something that just cant be done from behind a screen.

But I need to be ringside to enjoy sweating a pool match in person -- i.e., CLOSE to the table. Only from close can you see the table layout well, identify the balls, know (usually) whether one OB will pass another, know which CB routes are possible, see what spin the player is using, etc. Watching pool from much of a distance, is, at least for me, far inferior to watching it on a decent stream.
 
My opinion: if the video is clear and the balls are easily recognizable, the rotation games like 9-Ball and 10-Ball need very little commentary because viewers are able to see for themselves what the player probably will do....how the 1-ball leads to the 2-ball, etc.

But, 1-Pocket, 14.1, and 8-Ball offer a wider variety of shot selections and therefore may require more intelligent and succinct commentary.

Billy Incardona is very good at managing this tricky balancing act.

Yeah, it would be nice if every game was a perfect road map run-out! :grin:
But those damn safeties and kick shots keep getting in the way. And heaven forbid someone gets hooked. Oh my!

Even in games like you mention above, most innings and the shots made are fairly straightforward, with One Pocket probably being the exception, where creativity is abundant. Efren used to fool all of us time and time again. I can remember sitting next to Billy and hearing him say, "Where did that shot come from?" He is also one of my favorite coms to work with.
 
In my opinion, in person is hands down the best way to view a match or tournament. That's why they call it sweating a match because you feel (sense) everything about the match. Something that just cant be done from behind a screen.

There you go! Even if I'm doing commentary, I prefer to be as close to the action as possible. I want to feel exactly what you're talking about. You get a feel for the game and sometimes can even sense when a player is going to miss. Something about their body language and preparation for the shot is not quite right. Thanks for mentioning this.
 
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