We reap what we sow John Lewis.
- Thread starter Celtic
- Start date
Right from the start the WPA attempted to take control of the IPT. When that failed you attempted to discredit it and destroy it before it could get started. And now it is a smashing success despite the WPA.
The WPA started the bad blood. It was in your abilities to welcome the IPT and attempt to work with Kevin in a respectful manner. Instead you decided to be hard asses and now you are on the loosing end of playing that card. Tough shit for you and all your events that hold your sanction. This is what you get for running the whole of professional pool like a bunch of thugs trying to maintain a monopoly over the sport that kept you comfortable in a slackass job that gave you lots of travel and entertainment expenses while the pool players struggled to make a living.
Dont sit there now acting all innocent and pretending that the IPT is picking on you without reason. Hell alot of us were pretty pissed off about the BCA being torn apart JOHN, that was NOT for the players, it was for YOUR ego and nothing more. You were all a bunch of idiots, you are all STILL a bunch of idiots, and now you are paying for it.
The WPA started the bad blood. It was in your abilities to welcome the IPT and attempt to work with Kevin in a respectful manner. Instead you decided to be hard asses and now you are on the loosing end of playing that card. Tough shit for you and all your events that hold your sanction. This is what you get for running the whole of professional pool like a bunch of thugs trying to maintain a monopoly over the sport that kept you comfortable in a slackass job that gave you lots of travel and entertainment expenses while the pool players struggled to make a living.
Dont sit there now acting all innocent and pretending that the IPT is picking on you without reason. Hell alot of us were pretty pissed off about the BCA being torn apart JOHN, that was NOT for the players, it was for YOUR ego and nothing more. You were all a bunch of idiots, you are all STILL a bunch of idiots, and now you are paying for it.
why you ripping on john lewis he didnt make the statement IAN ANDERSON
did so why rip john...also john didnt rip the bca apart he didnt want to work for a profit org and mark fired him...besidesthe bca is doing fine and are running strong so whats the beef...
did so why rip john...also john didnt rip the bca apart he didnt want to work for a profit org and mark fired him...besidesthe bca is doing fine and are running strong so whats the beef...
billiardspro said:
I was under the impression that john quit?
Celtic said:
That's not true, and if you think it is than you are grossly misinformed.
Celtic said:
That's not true either. The IPT was invited into the World organization (WPA/WCBS) and was asked to pay sanctioning fees. All organizations are required to pay a sanctioning fee in accordance with the prize money. Higher prize money = higher sanctioning fee. Kevin declined to negotiate any further and went ahead and tossed the first stone, not the other way around. KT said he was not going to be bullied or coerced into paying anyone anything. That was KT's decision, not John Lewis' or Ian Anderson's.
Celtic said:
You have proof of this? I know you don't, but I thought I'd ask anyway. To my knowledge there will only be 150 pool players cashing in on the IPT at any given time. Pool is an international, worldwide participation sport that is growing in popularity in Europe and Asia. It is growing there due to the hard work of many people within the organization you just labeled as idiots, not because of KT or anything he has done in the last year.
Celtic said:
I think you have it backwards, and you have no clue what the WPA or WCBS does or why they exist. If KT had wise advisement they would have urged him to join with the WPA so that he could bring his brand of pool into the world arena and assist all of the existing organizations. When asked to pay the sanctioning, he gasped at the amount and told them to stick it up their asses. I have always believed that he did this because he didn't have the money. Right now he's robbing Peter to pay Paul with outrageous entry fees into his qualifiers and overpriced dvd's.Other than that there is still more money going out than is coming in. This will always be a problem with the IPT until and unless they find a balance in their finances.
Celtic said:
I still would like to know WHO or WHAT gave the UPA the authority to be the governing body of men's professional pool when it was a brand-new entity at its inception with absolutely no track record.
I heard that Lewis left a nice six-figure-salaried job at the BCA, poor fellow. It looks as if he has found a new place to practice his talents. The rich get richer, and the pool players are left out to dry; that is, until the IPT came to the fore. What a pity it is for Lewis that he can't now get fat off the IPT.
I, for one, am glad to see somebody create a vision for pool and pool players, take a stand, and go forward with it. The BCA Open for years paid 10- and $15,000 as its first-place payout while some of its BCA employees were/are earning six figures, with benefits and year-round employment. Something just doesn't seem quite right there to me.
The selection process for American pool players to compete in the BCA Open and other world-class competitions is something that should be looked into. Selections are made in secret by the American governing body of men's professional pool, and they are unfair and, IMO, discriminatory. Eventually, Mathroom Sports had to come up with a new qualification criteria for the World Pool Championships, to include players like Earl Strickland and Jose Parica, because the American governing body of men's professional pool selection criteria seemed flawed, for lack of a better word. American players who were ranked in the 40th percentile were given a pass by the UPA to compete in the World Pool Championships in days gone by, when there were MANY players ranked higher that should have gone to this high-profile event.
The International Pool Tour puts money in the pockets of pool players, REAL POOL, REAL RULES, AND REAL MONEY. I'd rather see monies going in pool players' pockets than a lone letter-writer.
What has the WPA done for American pool? We open our doors and welcome players from every creed and color, even in our beloved U.S. Open. Yet, there are some so-called pool organizations who continue to segregate by nationality. Maybe the WPA's time would be better spent elsewhere. As far as I am concerned, I like what the IPT has done thus far, and I am looking forward to a great year up ahead, with or without the WPA and Mr. Lewis. JMHO, FWIW!
JAM
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JAM said:
Jennie,
Actually, the American criteria was not flawed - it didn't exist due to a lack of professionalism by the organizations in place.
Without getting to deep into the politics of the BCA - I can explain what the WPA/WCBS does "internationally".
The monies collected from sanctioning fees go to fund worldwide projects in carom/snooker/pocket billiards that by and large are unnoticed domestically here in the United States. The WCBS was formed to collectively govern the sport and the 3 recognized disciplines to advance all of them worldwide. In the year prior to the formation of the IPT, great strides were made by Charlie Williams, Barry Behrman, and the WPA. A lot of work went in to getting the US Open sanctioned and points could be earned at that event for entry into the WPC. Prior to that accomplishment, pool in the United States was viewed as a group of immature people that were unfocused, undisciplined, and uncooperative.
The same could have been done with the IPT - but KT was not hapy with the sanctioning fees, which are uniform across the board. The money that comes from sanctioning goes right back into the sport FOR THE PLAYERS. It would have meant that San Miguel/EPBF and IPT would have been intertwined and points could be earned, players could play and earn money in all of those tours without fear of schedule conflicts. The IPT could have played a major role in the restructuring of the WPA, and instead of holding the qualifiers lke they are now, KT could have made more money by working hand in hand with the smaller tours that fell under the WPA umbrella to provide and hold qualifiers FOR HIM. KT wanted no part in the deal, but the sanctioning fees would have been a drop in the bucket compared to what he would be able to make worldwide by providing a platform for players to reach the highest level of pocket billiards.
Instead he chose to go it alone and thumbed his nose. That was his decision. I believe that he was under bad advisement for doing so, and that he would have been compensated with money, control, and a high position of power within the world body - to include exclusive ownership and marketing revenues for any of his products - including the IPT - with absolutely no interference from the WPA or WCBS. All the IPT would have had to do is abide by the International Sanctioning guidelines, which are the same guidelines followed by the US Open - including the sanctioning fees. These organizations were willing to work with him, but communication broke down on his end, not the end of the WPA. That is by Kevin's own admission, don't shoot me or anybody else for pointing that out. I really believe that if he were to reconsider his position that he would be able to impact the world of pool in ways he never imagined - and lead the world of pocket billiards to a point above and beyond anybody's expectations. I hope Kevin reconsiders and opens up the lines of communication. It would be a good move to ensure that the IPT is here to stay, and not some fly-by-night, here today - gone tomorrow company.
Blackjack said:
There may have been a "lack of professionalism," but when rankings are ignored and active players are selecting other players willy nilly to compete in the World Pool Championships with rankings in the 40th percentile, something is rotten in Denmark, wouldn't you say, David?
Blackjack said:
Maybe the worldwide projects are, by and large, unnoticed because the WPA has ignored the United States and put American pool players on the back burner. The WPA does seem to be focused on nationality-restricted events. Obviously, there aren't very many snooker players here in the States, not saying there are none, but just not very many.
BTW, what is Ian Anderson's background in pool? I sometimes find it interesting to learn how others were attracted to the sport. It sure as heck couldn't have been the money there is to be made, especially at a pool player's level!
Blackjack said:
That sure does seem like a blue-blooded prejudicial view of the American colonists.
I do think history has repeated itself over several decades in the States. Players aren't the best candidates to be running the pool organizations.
What is unique about Trudeau is that pool as a sport may benefit from his expertise to make things happen. Me personally, I'd much rather listen to someone who can make things happen than follow a class-driven pool entity where the rich keep getting richer and the plebian pool players are expected to dance like monkeys for a couple bananas.
Blackjack said:
I respect Trudeau's strength to stand up for what he thinks. Maybe it was the way he was asked about the sanctioning fees. Some of these pool organizations have pitbull personalities working for them.
Blackjack said:
If that is the case, then why didn't the WPA provide a platform for players to reach the highest level of pocket billiards before Trudeau came to the scene? Trudeau has established a vision and should be able to spend his dough how he sees fit. The WPA ain't the Pope of Pool.
Blackjack said:
The communication broke down because the WPA got mad when they didn't get their hands greased on demand.
David, answer this question for me, please. Why is it that every red-blooded player I know is anxious to hop aboard the IPT train right now? There is more renewed enthusiasm for the game in my neck of the woods since the IPT came to the fore. This is a good thing for pool as a professional sport.
An international pool tour is born, one which has players from all over the world competing in the BEST of environments, on a level playing field, and for serious money. Wait until Reno transpires and some lucky dog pockets a half-a-million dollars. This is the biggest thing that has happened since TCOM, IMHO. And it's only the beginning.
JAM
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JAM said:
I think you answered your own question. I have helped players prepare for some of the events. I don't discourage anyone to play on the IPT, in fact I am encouraging them to practice harder and prepare physically and mentally for the toughest battle of their life. I encourage them. That's what I do. I'm not knocking on doors or sending out letters or e-mails telling people not to support this. In fact I have done the exact opposite - just like when I spoke with Keith on the phone last October. I wished him well and I told him to win as much as he can and to take advantage of this opportunity. I have the utmost respect for what the IPT is trying to do. I would just like to see a little bit of cooperation with the rest of the industry and the other organizations. If we're stuck with 8 ball from here on out, I'll be the first to tell you that I think that sucks. I also believe that somebody has an excellent opportunity to establish an alternative tour for one pocket, banks, 9 ball, and 14.1.
Blackjack said:
Actually Blackjack, I am not. The WPA basically from square 1 took the stance of
"hmm, IPT eh? Well we are the WPA and we run the show. Either you pony up huge money for our sanctioning and follow our rules for sanctioned events or you will find it very difficult to break into the game."
That is a fact, and if you dont see it that way you are even more biased then reason could dictate and are instead flat out delusional. That is also strong-arm tactics. When the IPT did not play ball the IPT warned their players not to play on it AND they put out letters like this trying to ruin the IPT before it even got started. They DONT like competition, that is really bloody obvious to anyone who opens their eyes. We all know you have been anti IPT from the getgo and a extreme supporter of the WPA, but try not to let it cloud the facts from taking shape in your head.
Blackjack said:
That is just bunk. What gives the WPA the right to say to a person "so ya wanna run a pool tournament eh? Well you need to give us X% of the prize fund and we will sanction it. If you dont do so we will do everything in our power to make sure you fail." Kevin had all the right in the world to decline WPA sanctioning and that was between him and the WPA. The WPA went beyond that when they started doing bullshit like writing this letter and having it spammed all over the net and sending not so subtle warnings that if a player played in the IPT then they would not be playing in the WPA world championships. The WPA has always been the aggressor in this conflict, fighting to keep control of their monopoloy on pro pool.
Blackjack said:
Actually there is well known travels and expenses that Mr. Anderson has charged to the WPA that are way over the top. Those expenses come out of the pockets of the pool players and the event coordinators who were pressured into sanctioning be the strong arm tactics of the WPA. They clearly do not post all the over the top expenses on the WPA website in a PDF for all to see, that would be stupid, it would remove the wool over the eyes on even people so blind as you. Nevertheless there has been discussions even on this very forum about some over the top expenditures of Anderson and crew.
Blackjack said:
It exists primarily as a cash cow for those running it. It has done very little for furthering the game of pool and in fact this game was more popular in the 1980's due to a fricking movie then it is today with all that "work" the WPA does.
There is more excitement in pool today then there has been in years, that is evident on this very board. And you can thank the IPT for that, not the WPA. Sad eh Blackjack?
Blackjack said:
He does not need them. He can do that without the WPA very easily. He is already focused on North America AND Europe. He has players from all regions of the world, more every day from areas like Asia, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, South America, are attempting to become a part of the IPT. He now has the WPA World Champ playing in his next event. The IPT IS in the world arena.
As for all the existing organizations? They attacked the IPT from the getgo with suspision and contempt. He owes them nothing.
Blackjack said:
The money would be irrelevant anyhow. In principle if the WPA had asked for $1 he possibly would have still declined and it would have been the right move. Why ally with a organization that have been doing a shit job of promoting this sport for years?
Blackjack said:
Uhh... right...
Blackjack said:
Uhh, make your mind up. Robbing Peter to pay Paul? Or he is covering alot of the expenses on his own due to alot more money going out then coming in? You like to have your cake and eat it too on debates dont you Blackjack?
Sport vs. Money - Money vs. Sport
Blackjack is right on the mark. Argue (or discuss) with him as you may, but he is trying to point out how this could be a win-win for the sport.
Greg Norman tried to form his own world golf association, not recognizing how powerful and important the PGA was to the sport. I see Kevin moving in the same direction (as Greg), where the sport has no assurance it will benefit from the IPT.
The IPT has put all their eggs in one basket (meaning their own shopping cart) and it is hard to believe that a sport that has never succeeded (historically) will do so just because you throw a bunch of money at it.
Blackjack is absolutely correct to hope that Kevin rethinks his position about sanctioning and the stronger marketing potential that exists from a world wide vantage point. Then the sport and all players will get a fair chance to be proud of their passion and know that the people at the top have the best interest of the sport in mind - AND ARE WORKING TOGETHER.
I think Norman had these types of intentions but even his reputation and sponsorship was not strong enough to make it work. And like Blackjack said, what do we have from the IPT other than verbal, non-contracted statements about all the money going to the players.
I think the IPT will do okay, but this does not mean that the sport will as a whole. The real question is - The WPA and WCBS have been around and are represented and directed by all six continents. The IPT is directed by Kevin. The IPT "Chosen Ones" should be thinking of what will happen in the long run, and if you read Ian's letter again, there is much more sound thought and experience expressed than verbal commitments.
By the way, the original post about John Lewis reaping because of a letter written by the WPA is way off base.
I must side with Blackjack. You know your stuff buddy, thanks for your input.
Blackjack is right on the mark. Argue (or discuss) with him as you may, but he is trying to point out how this could be a win-win for the sport.
Greg Norman tried to form his own world golf association, not recognizing how powerful and important the PGA was to the sport. I see Kevin moving in the same direction (as Greg), where the sport has no assurance it will benefit from the IPT.
The IPT has put all their eggs in one basket (meaning their own shopping cart) and it is hard to believe that a sport that has never succeeded (historically) will do so just because you throw a bunch of money at it.
Blackjack is absolutely correct to hope that Kevin rethinks his position about sanctioning and the stronger marketing potential that exists from a world wide vantage point. Then the sport and all players will get a fair chance to be proud of their passion and know that the people at the top have the best interest of the sport in mind - AND ARE WORKING TOGETHER.
I think Norman had these types of intentions but even his reputation and sponsorship was not strong enough to make it work. And like Blackjack said, what do we have from the IPT other than verbal, non-contracted statements about all the money going to the players.
I think the IPT will do okay, but this does not mean that the sport will as a whole. The real question is - The WPA and WCBS have been around and are represented and directed by all six continents. The IPT is directed by Kevin. The IPT "Chosen Ones" should be thinking of what will happen in the long run, and if you read Ian's letter again, there is much more sound thought and experience expressed than verbal commitments.
By the way, the original post about John Lewis reaping because of a letter written by the WPA is way off base.
I must side with Blackjack. You know your stuff buddy, thanks for your input.
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Blackjack said:
David,
How does that number compare to the number of pool players cashing in on the UPA tour at any given time? And how many of the UPA events ever paid out as much for an entire tournament as the IPT did just for 1st place in the NAO?
Professional players are in it for the money...and so far, it looks like the IPT is the best job going. Remember the debate about what if one of the ladies got to the 4th round...what would they do about the WPBA event? It was pretty obvious that just getting through the 4th round would result in a bigger paycheck than winning the whole thing in Pioria.
I know that KT's primary objective is to make money for KT...but from where I'm sitting, it sure looks like the players are making out better with the IPT than anywhere else. Why would he need anyone else to "sanction" his tour? He has enough pictures of presidents to sanction anything he wants to do.
If the IPT makes it, and I hope they do, there are going to be a lot of wealthy players as a result. And if it doesn't, there are quite a few who have already made a very nice return on their investment in the IPT.
Steve
Celtic -
No point in argueing with BlackJack. he is 100% unreasonable. it is impossible to have a debate with somebody who is unreasonable and blind to any thought that does not support his own...
Blackjack's real problem with the IPT is -
He is excluded from it. He has ties and friends in the other organizations. He gets pleasure from being involved and helping pros. he is always trying to mediate and communicate with the industry. Even though he is not a player, he still enjoys being part of the game wherever he can.
Everything he has ever worked for is meaningless with the IPT and he is an outsider. That is why, IMO, he just can't accept the IPT in any form other that part of the WPA. he even said something about contacting the IPT to solve some problems for them (player rep or something...) and they ignored him
I read it as if they were idiots not to accept his talents lol... Like KT needs him to make sure the IPt is a success rofl...
BJ already has his "I told you the IPT would fail" post wriiten in his head.
Like I said, totally unreasonable and can't wait for the IPT to fail. Read all his posts from before the IPT til now and you can see the transparancy in him... He will accept nothing else. Its a shame some people only see things as half empty.
No point in argueing with BlackJack. he is 100% unreasonable. it is impossible to have a debate with somebody who is unreasonable and blind to any thought that does not support his own...
Blackjack's real problem with the IPT is -
He is excluded from it. He has ties and friends in the other organizations. He gets pleasure from being involved and helping pros. he is always trying to mediate and communicate with the industry. Even though he is not a player, he still enjoys being part of the game wherever he can.
Everything he has ever worked for is meaningless with the IPT and he is an outsider. That is why, IMO, he just can't accept the IPT in any form other that part of the WPA. he even said something about contacting the IPT to solve some problems for them (player rep or something...) and they ignored him
I read it as if they were idiots not to accept his talents lol... Like KT needs him to make sure the IPt is a success rofl...BJ already has his "I told you the IPT would fail" post wriiten in his head.
Like I said, totally unreasonable and can't wait for the IPT to fail. Read all his posts from before the IPT til now and you can see the transparancy in him... He will accept nothing else. Its a shame some people only see things as half empty.
Celtic said:
First of all, may I commend you on your willingness to communicate with respect.
Anybody that believes that the success of the IPT is dependent on how much THE PLAYERS make is out of their mind and uneducated. The success of the IPT will depend on how much money is generated for the IPT, not the players. If the IPT does not make any money, neither will the players. Given the history of our sport, fan support for ANY pro tour merchandise has been slim to none. Given that history, one would try to target a market base and develop it prior to launching a high dollar payout system for the players. All the initial promises were made prior to the IPT making their first dime in profits. In my estimation (as clueless as you seem to think I am) THE IPT Have PAID OUT MORE THAN THEY HAVE BROUGHT IN. The IPT won't last very long if they are only raking in $20K- $25K per event and shelling out in excess of 7 figures. I'm pretty sure the broadcasting money and other stuff is helping, but it won't pay all of their bills. Unless you know a way he is going to make up the difference, your argument makes no sense. With all of his money, Ted Turner was unable to put Vince McMahon out of business. It came down to understanding the market base and defining a target audience for their products. The same thing is true for the IPT. If they want to last, they will have to hook in the masses if they wish to continue to pay the big bucks.
CaptiveBred said:Celtic -
No point in argueing with BlackJack. he is 100% unreasonable. it is impossible to have a debate with somebody who is unreasonable and blind to any thought that does not support his own...
Blackjack's real problem with the IPT is -
He is excluded from it. He has ties and friends in the other organizations. He gets pleasure from being involved and helping pros. he is always trying to mediate and communicate with the industry. Even though he is not a player, he still enjoys being part of the game wherever he can.
Everything he has ever worked for is meaningless with the IPT and he is an outsider. That is why, IMO, he just can't accept the IPT in any form other that part of the WPA. he even said something about contacting the IPT to solve some problems for them (player rep or something...) and they ignored him
BJ already has his "I told you the IPT would fail" post wriiten in his head.
Like I said, totally unreasonable and can't wait for the IPT to fail. Read all his posts from before the IPT til now and you can see the transparancy in him... He will accept nothing else. Its a shame some people only see things as half empty.
Your off base and wrong. I have never had a desire to be part of the IPT at all. I have offered my assistance to many players free of charge in the form of coaching, business advice, and personal representation. I have also offered my assistance publicly to the IPT to establish a players organization to protect the interests of the players in arbitrarial issues - which believe it or not WILL arise. I have offered to do so at no cost but my own time energy. They ignoired that because it would open up a few cans of worms a bit earlier than scheduled. lol. If offering all of that makes me a bad person, I can live with that. Its more than what you and others have done - btw who are you and what have you done? Unless you have discussed this issue with me personally you really don't have a clue how I feel and your opinion means virtually nothing. 99% of the people that disagree with me won't discuss the issues with me one on one, mano y mano, including Kevin Trudeau. My line of communication is always open. If that's being unreasonable I can live with that too. lol