It's been said that although Mosconi detested gambling, he had a standing offer to play anyone for big $$$ and was avoided like the plague.
Can anyone verify this?
Can anyone verify this?
were they all afraid of Mosconi?
- Thread starter smashmouth
- Start date
smashmouth said:
During Mosconi's reign as king of the hill he had a long relationship and a lucrative contract with Brunswick corp. as their Billiard Ambassador and was one of the few professional pool players to live comfortably with a steady paycheck every week. It was part of his contract that he had to keep a clean image and the way I understand, gambling was off limits. There were players during this time period who wolf that he couldn't or wouldn't gamble with them but in reality they were glad of it. I've heard that on occasion he would match up but for the most part he was just the greatest "Ambassador of pool".
Dick
There are plenty of here-and-there stories of Mosconi matching up in various games. But clearly he wasn't a money player like the Jersey Reds, Wimpy Lassiters and Boston Shortys of the 60s. As noted, he was living comfortable winning tournaments and with Brunswick behind him.
> Other than the gambling to put food on the table he did as a kid,according to people around then,the only time he really gambled after the Brunswick contract was the time some local started woofing at Andrew Ponzi while they were eating lunch. Willie tried to get Ponzi to play the loud-mouth,that supposedly called them both "penguins" referring to their tuxedos,then finally agreed to play some,like 50 a rack 9-ball. Mosconi ran the first 13 racks on him,and dude's backer pulled up. He even protested,telling his backer "man you can't quit on me now,you haven't seen me hit a ball yet". Tommy D.
I think Lassister or Don Willis would of loved to gamble Willie some nine ball. A lot of one pocket players would also take their chances against him. Not too many would dare to play him 14.1, though. That's just plain stupid.
I've heard the story about Willie running a bunch of racks of nine ball for $$$ ( I thought it was nine racks, though) but I still don't believe he ran that many in succession. Nine packs are pretty rare unless he was playing on the same type of table he ran his 526 at 14.1 on and was getting real lucky on his breaks. Winning every game, definately. Breaking and running nine without the other guy even getting to the table seems a bit much.
I've heard the story about Willie running a bunch of racks of nine ball for $$$ ( I thought it was nine racks, though) but I still don't believe he ran that many in succession. Nine packs are pretty rare unless he was playing on the same type of table he ran his 526 at 14.1 on and was getting real lucky on his breaks. Winning every game, definately. Breaking and running nine without the other guy even getting to the table seems a bit much.
Yes, I've heard that Mosconi's contract with Brunswick prohibited him from gambling, which is probably true. But who would have gambled with him at 14.1? As far as 9-ball or one hole, I doubt if he would have been much of a threat with top players in those games. I don't think he really played much 9-ball. He's quoted as saying something like, "Why should I play a game where a player can win on the break shot?" He had a point! 9-ball is a game of luck.bud green said:
Doc
gulfportdoc said:
I have to disagree slightly there Doc. I think 9-ball has an inherent luck factor because of the structure of the game. Played at a low level the luck factor is much greater, but when played at high level I like to think it's a beautifully pure shot making exhibition.
There are also good ways to get rid of the luck factor playing 9ball.....roll out, and call the 9!
Gerry
Voodoo Daddy
One Pocket 101
smashmouth said:
They all feared James Evans from Harlem...so much the majority of white players protested that could not play in any world tournament due to his "color" <EYEROLL>!!! Maybe Mr Fels, Freddy or someone that knows more than what I was told could shed some light on this very disturbing subject.
I agree: roll out, and call the 9; but make the 9 the last ball made, as in 8-ball. Too many games are won by random positioning of an early 9-ball combination, or the nine hangs by a pocket. If the object is to compete in a game of skill, then modern 9-ball is the worst possible game to play.Gerry said:I have to disagree slightly there Doc. I think 9-ball has an inherent luck factor because of the structure of the game. Played at a low level the luck factor is much greater, but when played at high level I like to think it's a beautifully pure shot making exhibition.
There are also good ways to get rid of the luck factor playing 9ball.....roll out, and call the 9!
Gerry
A player has no control over what his opponent leaves him after the opponent has missed. As you know, in shoot out the player has a choice. I don't believe the level of player has anything to do with it. If you have two players of relatively equal caliber, the outcome will be almost 100% luck. Whoever gets "the rolls" will win.
Doc
Voodoo Daddy said:
I know the Knoxville Bear got his share of "Policy" money from the brothers up Harlem way,but I don't know if the Evans dude was one of the contributors.
Voodoo Daddy said:
James Evans was one of the all time great players. He owned a pool room in Harlem and didn't turn down anyone for a money game. The great Greenleaf used to go out there and gamble with him. They battled back and forth. Mosconi wouldn't have anything to do with him.
Evans never played in a World Championship. It was during the era of segregation in sports. No black baseball or football players either. This all began to change after WWII, when black soldiers fought to defend our country.
Mosconi did play a famous game against Nicky Vacchiano, where Nicky trapped him into giving up the 5 and the break on a 10' table. Mosconi out ran the nuts and beat Nicky. This is the only money game that Mosconi was known for. Most of the top hustlers of the era had disdain for Willie because he belittled them for being gamblers. Supposedly Mosconi did play for money when he was a young man, to put food on the table. So the hustlers considered him a hypocrite.
Fats told many stories about Willie and what a nit he was, whether true or not. Some of these stories I would not repeat on here, because they were quite demeaning.
Anyone read 'road player'? Some pretty interesting things in there about mosconi and Danny's runin's with him. Also Hustler Days has loads about him and his matches with fats, lassiter, and the rest of the players of that era.
would it be fair to assume that he was "available" for money matches if the top road players were to go to him?
From what I've read, nobody seemed to exactly go out of there way too often to challenge him, is that accurate?
I realize he wasn't well liked, and he spoke poorly of road players and gamblers but I have to wonder if his utter dominance as world champion, coupled with his fame and fortune didn't invoke jealousy in alot of players
I read his bio years ago and could swear he made claims about his gambling prowess and undefeated record in that regard,
btw, I highly recommend that book, it has some great photos in it also, one of them shows him performing a table length jump shot from one table to another and I think they were 10 footers also
From what I've read, nobody seemed to exactly go out of there way too often to challenge him, is that accurate?
I realize he wasn't well liked, and he spoke poorly of road players and gamblers but I have to wonder if his utter dominance as world champion, coupled with his fame and fortune didn't invoke jealousy in alot of players
I read his bio years ago and could swear he made claims about his gambling prowess and undefeated record in that regard,
btw, I highly recommend that book, it has some great photos in it also, one of them shows him performing a table length jump shot from one table to another and I think they were 10 footers also
Under duress, he would play
I only know of six gambling matches Willie had after he got the Brunswick contract. He robbed Fats playing 1pkt in Philly. He robbed Oakland Don DeCoy playing 1pkt in Philly. He robbed Nicky Vachianno playing 9ball in Philly giving him the 5 and the break. He robbed Joe Sebastian (a very top player) in Bensingers in Chicago playing 9 ball (that's the match whereby Willie ran out the whole set and Sebastian's backers pulled up, and Joe supposedly said, "How can you quit? You aint seen me shoot yet!). He lost to Don Willis playing 9 ball. To get Willy to play you really had to rough-hustle him into it. He also lost playing 1pkt to my mentor, Gene The Fullerton Kid Skinner.
I also heard from the really old-timers that James Evans probably played as good as anybody. I refuse to believe the players of that day kept him out of the tournaments. I never heard any of the old guys ( like Baby Face, Gene Skinner, Joe Procita, Lassiter etc.) speak racially disparagingly about James Evans. He was only referred to, in utmost respect, as a fellow pool player who could really play. Since there were so many great players competing then, what difference would one more make? The same went for Rotation Slim and Detroit Slim, two other great black players. What probably kept him out was the sports social norms of the day. Blacks werent allowed to compete in almost any of the major sports. As for me personally, I played and gambled in black poolrooms, all around the country, all my life, and never had a problem. When it came to competing, race never seemed to be an issue. The pool world, as I viewed it, was probably the least prejudiced venue there was.
the Beard
I only know of six gambling matches Willie had after he got the Brunswick contract. He robbed Fats playing 1pkt in Philly. He robbed Oakland Don DeCoy playing 1pkt in Philly. He robbed Nicky Vachianno playing 9ball in Philly giving him the 5 and the break. He robbed Joe Sebastian (a very top player) in Bensingers in Chicago playing 9 ball (that's the match whereby Willie ran out the whole set and Sebastian's backers pulled up, and Joe supposedly said, "How can you quit? You aint seen me shoot yet!). He lost to Don Willis playing 9 ball. To get Willy to play you really had to rough-hustle him into it. He also lost playing 1pkt to my mentor, Gene The Fullerton Kid Skinner.
I also heard from the really old-timers that James Evans probably played as good as anybody. I refuse to believe the players of that day kept him out of the tournaments. I never heard any of the old guys ( like Baby Face, Gene Skinner, Joe Procita, Lassiter etc.) speak racially disparagingly about James Evans. He was only referred to, in utmost respect, as a fellow pool player who could really play. Since there were so many great players competing then, what difference would one more make? The same went for Rotation Slim and Detroit Slim, two other great black players. What probably kept him out was the sports social norms of the day. Blacks werent allowed to compete in almost any of the major sports. As for me personally, I played and gambled in black poolrooms, all around the country, all my life, and never had a problem. When it came to competing, race never seemed to be an issue. The pool world, as I viewed it, was probably the least prejudiced venue there was.
the Beard
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I don't believe the players had anything to do with it. Few of the tournaments in that era were "open" tournaments. Most of them were invitational. Presumably the promoters invited whomever they believed would make for a good gate. As you pointed out, the social norms of the day did not include blacks in pool tournaments (nor probably golf and bowling either). It may have been Fred Whalen and Tiff Payne in L.A. who were the first in the late 60's to invite a black man (Cisero Murphy) to a world invitational. Or it may have been in New York. I attended the World Invitational in NYC in '67, but I can't recall if Cisero played in it or not. I know he was playing in the '69 Invitational in L.A.freddy the beard said:
Doc
I remember reading about the Johnston City Tournaments that blacks were not allowed there for the longest time. They even did a silent vote by placing yes or no's in a hat as to let a black man enter. There were more No's. Pool wasn't always the least prejudice.
Where did you read that?
I was at Johnston City every year but the first one (1961). I usually stayed there day and night for the whole 3 weeks. I never heard anything about what you are talking about, with the votes in a hat. But as I said, I did know many of the players, and I never heard them ever say that they didnt want the blacks to play in the tournament. Since they had been gambling with those same blacks all their lives, it would have been counter-productive to the action to not want them to be there. What was probably the determining factor in them being unable to play for the first few years was the area the tounament was held in, Little Egypt in southern Illinois. Now that was a very prejudiced area. It was probably worse than the deep South. Paulie and George Jansco certainly didnt care whose money they collected, but local politics probably dictated the exclusion. That was probably the deal they had to cut to get the police and troopers to ignore all the gambling. And when the ban was lifted the Janscos put their arm around Cisero Murphy and even inteceded decisively one time when some cracker tried to give Cisero a hard time.
the Beard
DeadPoked said:
I was at Johnston City every year but the first one (1961). I usually stayed there day and night for the whole 3 weeks. I never heard anything about what you are talking about, with the votes in a hat. But as I said, I did know many of the players, and I never heard them ever say that they didnt want the blacks to play in the tournament. Since they had been gambling with those same blacks all their lives, it would have been counter-productive to the action to not want them to be there. What was probably the determining factor in them being unable to play for the first few years was the area the tounament was held in, Little Egypt in southern Illinois. Now that was a very prejudiced area. It was probably worse than the deep South. Paulie and George Jansco certainly didnt care whose money they collected, but local politics probably dictated the exclusion. That was probably the deal they had to cut to get the police and troopers to ignore all the gambling. And when the ban was lifted the Janscos put their arm around Cisero Murphy and even inteceded decisively one time when some cracker tried to give Cisero a hard time.
the Beard
gulfportdoc said:
Cisero was the "Jackie Robinson" of Pool, breaking the color barrier in the 60's, when he finally got invited into the World Championships. He had been beating all the "World Champions" for years already.
He first played in a major 14.1 Championship in Burbank, CA in 1965, where he beat Mosconi. Yes, Fred Whalen promoted that event.
jay helfert said:
There was a thread once about what pool player you wanted to see a movie made about. Your post is the reason why I chose Cisero. If it was a gritty movie that didn't preach but simply told the story about his life and what it was like for a black player to beat world champions when he wasn't invited to challenge them for the titles, I think it could have a lot of universal appeal.
Picture a combination of the movies Ray and The Hustler. I don't know to what age he competed, but perhaps Poitier playing him towards the end of the movie, or perhaps in an epilogue scene as a flash forward?
Sorry for the slight hijack.
Kelly