were they all afraid of Mosconi?

[smashmouth]

I just finished "Hustler Days". There's very little in there about Mosconi, and nothing about him gambling

The book is not very anecdotal, it's really a different kind of pool book and overall not that great imo

I guess "Road Player" is next

If James Evans was competing against Greenleaf, wouldn't his prime and Mosconi's not coincide?

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Cisero was the "Jackie Robinson" of Pool, breaking the color barrier in the 60's, when he finally got invited into the World Championships. He had been beating all the "World Champions" for years already.

He first played in a major 14.1 Championship in Burbank, CA in 1965, where he beat Mosconi. Yes, Fred Whalen promoted that event.

Jay,
I hate to chime in on you here but Murphy had already won the Eastern States 14.1 Championships in 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964.
The 1965 World 14.1 Championship that he won in Burbank, strangely enough, was not recognized nor sanctioned by the BCA. It was also his last major victory.
This always perplexed me because he is in their HOF. Men like Bennie Allen (6 World 14.1 Championships), Thomas Hueston (11 World 14.1 Championships), Grady Mathews, Allen Hopkins, etc are NOT in their HOF yet have better credentials.

 

[VIProfessor]

Jay,
I hate to chime in on you here but Murphy had already won the Eastern States 14.1 Championships in 1959, 1960, 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964.
The 1965 World 14.1 Championship that he won in Burbank, strangely enough, was not recognized nor sanctioned by the BCA. It was also his last major victory.
This always perplexed me because he is in their HOF. Men like Bennie Allen (6 World 14.1 Championships), Thomas Hueston (11 World 14.1 Championships), Grady Mathews, Allen Hopkins, etc are NOT in their HOF yet have better credentials.

Well of course they have better "credentials"! They weren't barred from playing in World Championships for a major part of their career! Who knows what Cisero would have accomplished had he been afforded same opportunities?

 

[jay helfert]

> Other than the gambling to put food on the table he did as a kid,according to people around then,the only time he really gambled after the Brunswick contract was the time some local started woofing at Andrew Ponzi while they were eating lunch. Willie tried to get Ponzi to play the loud-mouth,that supposedly called them both "penguins" referring to their tuxedos,then finally agreed to play some,like 50 a rack 9-ball. Mosconi ran the first 13 racks on him,and dude's backer pulled up. He even protested,telling his backer "man you can't quit on me now,you haven't seen me hit a ball yet". Tommy D.

Supposedly, this was Joe Sebastian who put the New York (loud and obnoxious) hustle on Ponzi who was a well known gambler. Ponzi didn't want to be bothered with the twerp, but Mosconi got riled up and played. To Willie, 9-Ball was a joke, to easy for him to fool with.

Willie only played one other notable game after he became World Champ. The great Philly hustler Nicky Vach got Mosconi to give him the five and the break on a 10' table. A great game for him if his break was working. Unfortunately it wasn't, and Willie kept running out. This story reverberated in the pool world for years afterward. Nicky got the nuts, but Willie outran it.

No one ever again asked Willie to play any 9-Ball. I do think Don Willis had played Willie years before and beaten him, when they were both young men. Fats claimed to have beaten Willie playing bank every other ball, a complete trap. Willie always denied that he played this game. No question they had gambled when they were young. There was bad blood between them.

 

[jay helfert]

Well of course they have better "credentials"! They weren't barred from playing in World Championships for a major part of their career! Who knows what Cisero would have accomplished had he been afforded same opportunities?

Thank you. The Eastern States Championships and New York State Championships had world class fields. The greatest players of that era all respected Cisero's game. They considered him the equal of the best players. In the 60's, Cisero was right there with Balsis, Crane, Lassiter and Lou Butera as the top five. Ray Martin and Mizerak were yet to emerge.

And Cisero was a fearless competitor. He had a great will to win, a good work ethic and lived a clean life style. He was well respected off the table as well. And NO ONE would mess with Cisero. He was widely known as a man who knew how to handle himself in an altercation. He was a very peaceful man, probably aware that he could crush someone if the need arose. He was a solidly built man.

I never heard him utter a cross word to anyone. I adored this MAN! He was a hero to me when I was a youngster. And he treated me like an equal and a friend when I was a nobody, a lowly referee.

 

[jay helfert]

There was a thread once about what pool player you wanted to see a movie made about. Your post is the reason why I chose Cisero. If it was a gritty movie that didn't preach but simply told the story about his life and what it was like for a black player to beat world champions when he wasn't invited to challenge them for the titles, I think it could have a lot of universal appeal.

Picture a combination of the movies Ray and The Hustler. I don't know to what age he competed, but perhaps Poitier playing him towards the end of the movie, or perhaps in an epilogue scene as a flash forward?

Sorry for the slight hijack.

Kelly

A great idea.

 

[duckie]

There are plenty of here-and-there stories of Mosconi matching up in various games. But clearly he wasn't a money player like the Jersey Reds, Wimpy Lassiters and Boston Shortys of the 60s. As noted, he was living comfortable winning tournaments and with Brunswick behind him.

While back ESPN Classic was airing a series called Legends or something like that, anyway some of the players were Decon Crane, Mosconi, Lassieter, Baliss and so on.

Lassiter won one series of games and during the post game interview was asked what was his favorite game.......his answer....The money game.....

 

[X Breaker]

Thank you for these wonderful stories.

I enjoy reading them very much.

Jay, you should write a book about all these players, and your personal experience with them.

Richard

 

[pawnmon]

Murphy

It's really great to read all the comments about Cicero Murphy. I was just a kid when the Johnson City matches were shown on the Wide World of Sports. Murphy was the first top flight black guy I had seen. His style reminded me of Lassiter without Lassiters odd grimacing intensity. Murphy could really shoot some pool and make it look easy.

 

[PoolSharkAllen]

Thank you for these wonderful stories.

I enjoy reading them very much.

Jay, you should write a book about all these players, and your personal experience with them.

Richard

The last I heard, Jay has been busy working on his new book, "All About Shanelle."

 

[jay helfert]

Thank you for these wonderful stories.

I enjoy reading them very much.

Jay, you should write a book about all these players, and your personal experience with them.

Richard

Thanks Richard. I am.

 

[jay helfert]

The last I heard, Jay has been busy working on his new book, "All About Shanelle."

The first chapter is entitled "Yum Yum".

 

[Tin Man]

Luck???

If the object is to compete in a game of skill, then modern 9-ball is the worst possible game to play..........If you have two players of relatively equal caliber, the outcome will be almost 100% luck. Whoever gets "the rolls" will win.

Doc

Wouldn't that statement indicate that if one player is better that the other, the better player would win???

I agree that there is luck in nine-ball, but in a race to 11 one roll usually doesn't cost the entire set. The rolls tend to even out in the long run.

Playing straight pool on the other hand, one roll can easily cost the entire game. If you play a good safe and a ball gets dead it can cost the entire game easily. I even played a guy that undercut the break ball, then watched it rebound off of the end rail and sail four rails into the intended pocket! He then proceeded to run a million. In nine ball, at least if someone gets a good roll you get to shoot again in the same hour.

 

[COLLECTION GURU]

Lassiter and Cisero (Cicero)

It's really great to read all the comments about Cicero Murphy. I was just a kid when the Johnson City matches were shown on the Wide World of Sports. Murphy was the first top flight black guy I had seen. His style reminded me of Lassiter without Lassiters odd grimacing intensity. Murphy could really shoot some pool and make it look easy.

I was in college, Southern Illinois which was 20 miles away from JC, and spent my almost 7 year college career at Johnson City when the tourney hit town. While "Wimpy" was different than "Fitz"", a name I and Tex Gieske called the Irishman (Murphy), both were very nice in different ways. I racked balls for LL during the day and made his beverages as he played 14.1 left handed ( with his self gratification grip), bank every other ball, etc. never forgetting to offer to get one for Fitz. While some fans were uncomfortable with Fitz, the players all seemed to like him except when they had their cues unscrewed playing him. "Wimpy" was quite but "Fitz" was funny and talkative when comfortable.

It was a wonderful experience and now realize that "freddy the Beard" was other mature guy on the bleachers farting during the long evenings waiting for the next game to be negotiated. Someone should get all the living attendees who were at JC and make a realistic movie as it was a great experience for this teenager.

Collection Guru/BWP

 

[alstl]

When I was a kid I remember seeing Fats and Mosconi playing a match on tv. Fats was talking and Mosconi was winning, and Mosconi was visibly upset. There must have been something between them going back a long time. At one point Fats accused Mosconi of only being able to play for house money and not his own, and Mosconi pulled a fat money clip out of his pocket. At that point Fats backed down.

I would imagine there is a video of that match somewhere, I wouldn't mind seeing it again.

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Well of course they have better "credentials"! They weren't barred from playing in World Championships for a major part of their career! Who knows what Cisero would have accomplished had he been afforded same opportunities?

VIProfessor,

I did not say or even imply that James "Cicero" Murphy did not belong in or was not worth of being in the BCA HOF. What I DID say that the BCA has consistantly passed over other equally worthy and deserving champions.

Sorry to disappoint you, but this had nothing to do with who was barred or not. It definitely was not an attack or smear on Murphy. I liked him a lot and helped some of his family with some research on him.

Terry

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Thank you. The Eastern States Championships and New York State Championships had world class fields. The greatest players of that era all respected Cisero's game. They considered him the equal of the best players. In the 60's, Cisero was right there with Balsis, Crane, Lassiter and Lou Butera as the top five. Ray Martin and Mizerak were yet to emerge.

And Cisero was a fearless competitor. He had a great will to win, a good work ethic and lived a clean life style. He was well respected off the table as well. And NO ONE would mess with Cisero. He was widely known as a man who knew how to handle himself in an altercation. He was a very peaceful man, probably aware that he could crush someone if the need arose. He was a solidly built man.

I never heard him utter a cross word to anyone. I adored this MAN! He was a hero to me when I was a youngster. And he treated me like an equal and a friend when I was a nobody, a lowly referee.

Jay,
My post was in response to when you posted this statement..."He first played in a major 14.1 Championship in Burbank, CA in 1965". My point being that he had already played in and WON the famed Eastern States 14.1 for many consecutive years. This was considered a "major 14.1 tournament". The claim to fame on Cicero is that he won the World 14.1 Championship THE VERY FIRST TIME HE ENTERED IT.

Also, he was an accomplished amateur boxer in Brooklyn. He used to joke around about how "tough" he was, but he usually said it playfully and in jest to his friends.

He always carried himself with dignity.

 

[jay helfert]

I was in college, Southern Illinois which was 20 miles away from JC, and spent my almost 7 year college career at Johnson City when the tourney hit town. While "Wimpy" was different than "Fitz"", a name I and Tex Gieske called the Irishman (Murphy), both were very nice in different ways. I racked balls for LL during the day and made his beverages as he played 14.1 left handed ( with his self gratification grip), bank every other ball, etc. never forgetting to offer to get one for Fitz. While some fans were uncomfortable with Fitz, the players all seemed to like him except when they had their cues unscrewed playing him. "Wimpy" was quite but "Fitz" was funny and talkative when comfortable.

It was a wonderful experience and now realize that "freddy the Beard" was other mature guy on the bleachers farting during the long evenings waiting for the next game to be negotiated. Someone should get all the living attendees who were at JC and make a realistic movie as it was a great experience for this teenager.

Collection Guru/BWP

There you go, a Johnston City reunion. Well, we already have one of sorts at Derby City.

 

[Scott Lee]

Just FYI...Mr. Lucky, who posts here frequently, is Cisero Murphy's nephew; and learned to play pool from his uncle, as a young kid. He mentioned to me, when I worked with him last month in Atlanta, that Cisero always was strong on learning and practicing fundamentals, and was extremely proud and insistent on good manners at the table. Any book or movie about Cisero should include his take.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

 

[alstl]

I was at Johnston City every year but the first one (1961). I usually stayed there day and night for the whole 3 weeks. I never heard anything about what you are talking about, with the votes in a hat. But as I said, I did know many of the players, and I never heard them ever say that they didnt want the blacks to play in the tournament. Since they had been gambling with those same blacks all their lives, it would have been counter-productive to the action to not want them to be there. What was probably the determining factor in them being unable to play for the first few years was the area the tounament was held in, Little Egypt in southern Illinois. Now that was a very prejudiced area. It was probably worse than the deep South. Paulie and George Jansco certainly didnt care whose money they collected, but local politics probably dictated the exclusion. That was probably the deal they had to cut to get the police and troopers to ignore all the gambling. And when the ban was lifted the Janscos put their arm around Cisero Murphy and even inteceded decisively one time when some cracker tried to give Cisero a hard time.

the Beard

Murphy all but dominated the game in the New York City hotbeds of straight pool throughout the 1950's and 1960's. Cisero Murphy won the Eastern States 14.1 championship in 1959, and the New York State Championship from 1959-1964. In 1964, he was excluded from paticipating in the World Invitational 14.1 Championship despite his skill. Many players picketed outside the front of the Commodore Hotel in Burbank, California (the site of the tournament) to protest his exclusion. Cisero won a battle to compete in the event the very next year. It was his first attempt at winning a world title, and he won it. He defeated Luther Lassiter convincingly in the finals.

The best evidence that no vote took place is from Freddy who was there. It also seems unlikely given that the players picketed in support of Cisero in 1964. I agree that it was most likely local politics that dictated the exclusion early on. I had an uncle who lived down in that area, and a lot of those small towns had "sundown laws."