Western arrogance is alive and well

[sfleinen]

And by the same token when there is some problem with American food or products then the rest of the world should steer clear of it as well forever.

Forever? No, not forever, John. Using that logic, I'd stay away from Tylenol because everytime I'd look at a Tylenol bottle, I'd think, "Cyanide!" But I don't -- I trust it and use it.

Once the FDA lifts the caution -- after a period of time when chicken jerky treats from China are trusted again -- the lady and I will rethink our position.

All this needs to be put in perspective. Every day billions of products are made all over the world. Billions of people consume those products.

It's simple math to tell you that there will be screwups that will result in death and pain.

Of course! And they do. There are stories of products being pulled off the shelves everyday because of contamination and poisons. How many here remember a couple years ago when "Foxy" brand celery and lettuce was pulled off the shelves because of E.coli contamination? Folks may remember that this caused many deaths in children and senior citizens. It took me a long time before I trusted the Foxy brand again. Nowadays, I have no qualms picking up a Foxy product, but I do remember when this company screwed up. It just took a while for me to trust it again.

But in the overall picture the vast vast vast majority of stuff we use and consume is safe and harmless.

If I made a claim that x-product was the greatest ever because out of ten million users 100 people had an awesome result then I'd be laughed off the board. But if 100 people out of ten million have a disastrous result then it means that the entire production and all similar goods are tainted....

Does that make any sense at all?

Actually it does, John. A "disastrous effect" in a pool cue and a food product are two entirely different things. A disastrous effect in a pool cue (or cue case, if I may hit even closer to home) is that it falls apart, or an expensive cue gets damaged. A disastrous effect in a food product causes sickness and death. The tolerances for screw-ups are much, much lower in food products than it will ever be in a cue or cue case. It's not like any instance of a food product being faulty will ever be "acceptable," because the fact is, it never will be. Something that affects you (or your loved ones) personal health is a much different issue than wasting some dollars on something that fails to deliver but doesn't cause sickness and death.

So it does make sense. Once the FDA lifts its consumer warning -- after a period of time when this Chinese-made product has once again proven it can be trusted -- I'll rethink my position.

Another thing, John. Hitting close to home again, many of us trust JB Cases precisely because you are there, in China, overseeing the product development (your ideas), architecture, and execution in the cases coming off the line. The cases are quality precisely because you make sure they are. (The Wave cases are a good example -- the improvements in today's product [over the first ones that came out] are precisely because of your intervention and meticulous dedication to quality.) Where am I going with this? I understand your issue with people having issues with Chinese-made products. But I think you're overlooking the fact that in your instance, we have an American over there with a "quality being job one" mindset -- a innate sense of quality -- that overrides and prevents any shortcuts being taken, that would surely happen if you were NOT there. I would imagine the same instance would apply if you were at the helm of a pet food products company there in China. Would I not be right?

While a lot of us own many quality Chinese-made products, food products and other products that directly affect the health and well-being of the ones we love are where we draw the line. Unless there's someone over there like you, a name we know we can associate with quality and safety, there will always be suspicion whether to "trust" the product or not. You (or your love ones) are putting it into your stomach or applying it to your body, afterall.

Hope that helps clarify,
-Sean

 

[Lumocolor]

Well I have dropped my Ipod many times and it still works. I have dropped the Ipad twice and it still works. No matter what these are quality units.

There are things made with very high quality and others that aren't. Competition insures that things get better and cheaper.

If you get five years out of a monitor then what did you expect to get? Monitors are now a few hundred dollars and they last five years or more and if they break they are cheap to fix or replace. Ten years ago the same monitor that is now $200 was $1200.

Computers are cheaper and faster and last longer. I have dropped my Dell twice and it's still kicking. Sure there is a lot of crap in the world but there has always been a lot of crap in the world. That's the nature of life crap to quality is the spectrum. So what?

You can buy whatever you want to buy anywhere along that spectrum. And isn't that the choice you want to have?

I didn't mean that the apple product themselves are garbage, badly constructed and won't survive a drop, i meant that they want you to just buy a new one instead of going to best buy and buying a new battery for $10 when it craps out.

I admire the work you do on cases and i know you feel very strongly about offering the best quality possible at the best price possible, but im sure you'd agree that your not steve jobs and aren't on any list of the richest people in the world. If you made a decent case that people liked but was constructed in such a way that after X amount of use and abuse the bottom of the case fell out or the handles broke, you'd make a lot more money than making cases that can last 2 lifetimes and that's what most publicly traded companies are about, making as much money as they can for their shareholders.

If a computer monitor from 20years ago still works and the newer LCD's last 4-5 years (at least thats how long 3 have lasted for me so far) does it matter if they're only $300? I feel every product should be constructed like you make your cases to last as long as possible using the best components available.

I don't want to be one of those AZ people that argues back and forth about their personal opinions, because that never leads anywhere except a 360 degree circle, so i won't post in this thread again...lol...I was just bored and browsing and figured i'd share how i personally feel.

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Maybe nationalism would have been a better word.

 

[JB Cases]

Forever? No, not forever, John. Using that logic, I'd stay away from Tylenol because everytime I'd look at a Tylenol bottle, I'd think, "Cyanide!" But I don't -- I trust it and use it.

Once the FDA lifts the caution -- after a period of time when chicken jerky treats from China are trusted again -- the lady and I will rethink our position.

I understand. I also see the bigger picture and understand that it's not a "China" thing as much as it's a product of a mass consumption world.

Of course! And they do. There are stories of products being pulled off the shelves everyday because of contamination and poisons. How many here remember a couple years ago when "Foxy" brand celery and lettuce was pulled off the shelves because of E.coli contamination? Folks may remember that this caused many deaths in children and senior citizens. It took me a long time before I trusted the Foxy brand again. Nowadays, I have no qualms picking up a Foxy product, but I do remember when this company screwed up. It just took a while for me to trust it again.

And for me I don't even remember the brand. I kind of live in the world where if something is immediately considered dangerous such as with the milk powder in China a few years ago I stay away from it until it's cleared up. Then I don't think of it again.

Actually it does, John. A "disastrous effect" in a pool cue and a food product are two entirely different things. A disastrous effect in a pool cue (or cue case, if I may hit even closer to home) is that it falls apart, or an expensive cue gets damaged. A disastrous effect in a food product causes sickness and death. The tolerances for screw-ups are much, much lower in food products than it will ever be in a cue or cue case. It's not like any instance of a food product being faulty will ever be "acceptable," because the fact is, it never will be. Something that affects you (or your loved ones) personal health is a much different issue than wasting some dollars on something that fails to deliver but doesn't cause sickness and death.

I wasn't minimizing death only putting it in perspective. More people die every year in preventable accidents, from obesity and lung cancer than have died in one hundred years through tainted food and drugs.

So it does make sense. Once the FDA lifts its consumer warning -- after a period of time when this Chinese-made product has once again proven it can be trusted -- I'll rethink my position.

Fine but consider that there are thousands of food stuffs for animals and people that were produced in China and are consumed by millions of animals and people each day without issues.

Another thing, John. Hitting close to home again, many of us trust JB Cases precisely because you are there, in China, overseeing the product development (your ideas), architecture, and execution in the cases coming off the line. The cases are quality precisely because you make sure they are. (The Wave cases are a good example -- the improvements in today's product [over the first ones that came out] are precisely because of your intervention and meticulous dedication to quality.) Where am I going with this? I understand your issue with people having issues with Chinese-made products. But I think you're overlooking the fact that in your instance, we have an American over there with a "quality being job one" mindset -- a innate sense of quality -- that overrides and prevents any shortcuts being taken, that would surely happen if you were NOT there. I would imagine the same instance would apply if you were at the helm of a pet food products company there in China. Would I not be right?

Of course. But the larger the scale, the longer the supply chain, the more the chance for a screw up. No one who is the CEO of a company wants to poison their customers or their customer's pets. The Chinese guy who made some toys that inadvertently had a chemical on them that is a hallucinogenic killed himself out of shame.

While a lot of us own many quality Chinese-made products, food products and other products that directly affect the health and well-being of the ones we love are where we draw the line. Unless there's someone over there like you, a name we know we can associate with quality and safety, there will always be suspicion whether to "trust" the product or not. You (or your love ones) are putting it into your stomach or applying it to your body, afterall.

Hope that helps clarify,
-Sean

Sure, but it's not right to extrapolate this to all Chinese products. Just like Firestone making tires that unravel doesn't mean all tires are bad. In a mass consumption society where the consumers are separated from the makers by vast distances it's inevitable that some companies will screw up. But it's through the screwups that more effective procedures emerge as in the tamper-proof caps that now adorn all OTC medication and most food packaging.

Most people are not out to hurt other people. And for what it's worth the former head of China's equivalent to the FDA was executed for taking bribes from drug companies in China to ease up on the inspections. When is the last time you saw a CEO or politician in the USA go to jail or even get a harsh sentence for such crimes? So with the death penalty on the table in China you can be certain that no CEO ever wants to see company embroiled in a scandal where people are harmed.

 

[chefjeff]

Maybe nationalism would have been a better word.

Jingoism is even better. It has a little Chinese ring to it.

Jeff Livingston

 

[SUPERSTAR]

Most people are not out to hurt other people. And for what it's worth the former head of China's equivalent to the FDA was executed for taking bribes from drug companies in China to ease up on the inspections. When is the last time you saw a CEO or politician in the USA go to jail or even get a harsh sentence for such crimes?

Here they give them awesome retirement packages, and throw them parades.

 

[Craig Fales]

As far as the work ethic in China goes, this is an eye opener. The press was recently covering an "audit" of Apple's manufacturing supplier in China. They found that there were many workers putting in 60 hours a week. The media reported this as an abuse. However, when questioned, 48 percent of the workers said their hours on the assembly line were "reasonable," while 33.8 percent said they wanted to work more hours!

Chinese cues were junk. Even the Chinese didn't want them. But so were Japanese products, and Korean - not any more. I just saw some new Predator cues made in China. Let's put it this way, I agree that what we are going to see in the next few years is eye opening to say the least.

What I see is that if there is an American company controlling the quality of what's made then you do see some decent products. However, if it's a Chinese owned company producing in China then you will getting pure garbage, this is a proven fact.
There are exceptions of course. I personally get tired of all the Western arrogance, i.e., American arrogance. It exists everywhere but everyone likes to pile who is the best.

 

[whitewolf]

And while there's a positive spin to many Chinese-made products (e.g. Chinese-made cues), there's also the dark side, too.

I'm a dog owner (my lady and I have three). We treat these guys occasionally with doggie treats, so we're in the pet store a lot. Many of the products for pets are now made almost exclusively in China -- including food and treats.

I'm sure the pet owners among us are well aware of the recent news that some of the Chinese-made doggie jerky treats (e.g. dried chicken treats, like the Waggin' Train brand) were suddenly causing severe sickness and deaths:

"Chicken Jerky from China may be causing Fanconi syndrome in dogs"
http://askavetquestion.com/news/2011/chicken-jerky-fanconi/

"FDA Continues to Caution Dog Owners About Chicken Jerky Products"
http://fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/NewsEvents/CVMUpdates/ucm280586.htm

Lisa and I have since STEERED CLEAR of any Chinese-made food and pet products. When we pick up a product off the shelves in the store to read its label, the first place we look is to see where the product is made, and if that's been intentionally obscured, we try to determine it from the barcode. (Yes, it's true that you can't always determine the country of MANUFACTURE from the barcode, but you can get an idea which country issued the barcode, which is often close to the country of manufacture.) We stick with U.S. or Brazilian-made pet products.

-Sean

Just looked at my bag of Waggin Train chicken treats and they are manufactured in Anderson, South Carolina, but on the bag is also the 'Made in China' lingo. In the article you refered us to, the owner said the place was crawling with FDA agents and they have found nothing yet. Thanks for the warning though, maybe I will have to go back to pig ears.

 

[CocoboloCowboy]

America has changed, and is changing. Our GREATEST GENERATION OF AMERICAN’s (those who fought in WW-II) are dyeing off each day, and soon will all be dead.

Back in the GOOD OLD DAYS:

American’s did not talk about “ISSUES”, they solved PROBLEMS.

American came up with Problem Solving Invention, & Ideas, and Products to solver those Problems.

The Problem Solving Products were made & manufactured in the USA, now those American Products are made OUT OF THE USA.

Back in the good Old Days America Exported its product to the World.

Now we import our Product into the USA, form off shore, Mexico, etc. where they are made.

Lets say times is changing.

 

[Cdryden]

And if I can add and also include myself in this mess as being from Canada.

North Americans are also the biggest wasters and abusers in the entire world. Our land fills are over flowing.

I agree with the poster that said, "I buy what I want and not really care from where it is made. Me too, altho I do like to support NA products. I buy my El Cheapo Wranglers at Wal Mart. Hmmm, do you think these are made in NA? Probably India or Pakistan or one of those Stan countrys.

It is difficult to own any type of decent electronic products without buying Japanese. Anybody who disagrees, look around your house and see what you have. Maybe your NA vehicle is fixed with Chinese jobber parts. S hit, I know I have foreign jobber parts on both of my Harleys. They are shipped with an HD logo on them and part number but I highly doubt they were made in the USA.

I have a Chinese made Balabushka Tribute cue under the name of Axis.
The same company that sells these also sells the Gino Ferrari line.

Also they have Szamboti tribute cues.

The one I own is pure quality and I can tell you with certainty, that anyone who looks at this one and plays with it would agree with me 100%. No lies, just fact. You'd crap your pants if I told you what wholesale prices are on these cues. OK, I will tell you. $130.00
You could not get a custom cue maker to even think of making a cue of this quality for $130. He'd laugh you out of his shop. You couldn't even get a custom shaft for this much and the GB tribute cues come with not one, but two shafts with Aegis ferrules and Triangle tips. The points are dead even, the veneers are pretty much perfect in my eyes. The inlays are perfect and the finish is perfect, not a flaw. The materials used in this cue are top notch, not cheap plastic.

I went to Vegas a couple of years ago and didn't want to take my good cues in case they were damaged or lost. I decided to order a cheap cue to take with me. Boy was I ever wrong.

PM sent!...........

 

[sfleinen]

Just looked at my bag of Waggin Train chicken treats and they are manufactured in Anderson, South Carolina, but on the bag is also the 'Made in China' lingo. In the article you refered us to, the owner said the place was crawling with FDA agents and they have found nothing yet. Thanks for the warning though, maybe I will have to go back to pig ears.

whitewolf:

Be careful with your mental definition of the word, "manufacture." As you can see in the instance of Waggin' Train chicken jerky treats for dogs, you have conflicting information on the very same package. Make no mistake, the product (the chicken jerky pieces themselves) are made in China.

However, many companies that import "raw" Chinese-made products in bulk like this, will coin the term "manufacture" to mean "packaging the raw materials in a presentable form" (that's marketing-speak for: "a good ol' boy American worker is stuffing bags full of the jerky pieces"). So while the chicken jerky may be "packaged" in South Carolina, the company is getting the jerky pieces by the shipping-container-load from China. The South Carolina facility is nothing more than a packaging facility.

Just FYI. I'm getting ready to jump in the car at the moment for a business trip, but I'm sure if you google the Waggin' Train brand and "Fanconi syndrome," you'll come up with hits that point directly to this brand and others.

-Sean

 

[JC]

I knew when I named this thread.

That it wouldn't take long for the thread itself to become the proof.

7 pages later.................. alive and well as advertised!!

A lot of enlightened views too, which is refreshing.

 

[jrt30004]

i'll throw this out there to fan the flames. americans are arrogant. ok. maybe we are. and the next time the world has a crisis, there's a famine here, genocide being committed there, problems over here. we'll keep our money, our military, and our aide here.
we may be arrogant but we are also compassionate. when there are problems around the world there are more bleeding hearts here that donate to causes, create awareness groups, try to help any way they can.
as for the example of the chinese cue. sure it may be good, i have no problems with that. i have no problems with a lot products made in other countries, my home is full of them. i have two problems with foreign made goods however. knock offs which rob the original company of profits, and are usually made to a lesser quality. and products made with unsafe, harmful materials. i have no issue with a country like china wanting to sell us tooth paste or childrens toys. how 'bout you keep the lead out though. that would be nice.
the last thing i would throw in the mix is the labor laws. i know there are companies overseas who do it the right way, but there are a lot who don't. it's pretty much the main reason corporations are so quick to leave a country like the u.s. and go to china or mexico or some of the islands. they get to abuse the daylights out of their workers with long hours and substandard wages. cbs sunday morning just did a piece not to long ago about companies using some of the island countries to do just this, until the "crap" hits the fan, people become aware, the laws get changed and the companies move on to the next island.
it gets old being bashed for being american. the world hates us, but yet our borders overflow with legal and illegal immigrants alike. i would only ask this. if you hate us so much, stop coming here. stop over crowding our cities and towns, our schools. stop using our resources. hate us and stay the hell in your country. don't hate us and come here and use us. and to any of the countries that owe us money, hows about you pay that tab so we can lower our national debt. oh that's right most of you can't, but we were still nice enough in our arrogance to give you that cash.
yep, americans we suck.
lastly to make it pool related, i don't care where kamui chalk is made, i can't afford it. they have very good tips though. and that scuffer thig they make ain't bad either.

 

[Cdryden]

I knew when I named this thread.

That it wouldn't take long for the thread itself to become the proof.

7 pages later.................. alive and well as advertised!!

A lot of enlightened views too, which is refreshing.

Why are you quick to call an entire country arrogant for doing the exact same thing you are doing in this thread?

You are upset because westerners are saying Chinese products are all crap, yet you are calling all westerners arrogant. How do you not see the irony in that?
Enlightenment you say?

And in case you missed it I will say it again, not all Chinese made products are crap just like not all westerners are arrogant.

It seems like all your wanting to do is start trouble.

 

[Taco]

Everybody's ancestry leads elsewhere my friend, that don't mean they aren't American, or use American ingenuity to design innovative American products.

I actually like rice myself,,,,,,,but find chopsticks, well, a bit crude by todays standards. Sure they use them, and quite effectively, but does anyone really think they work better than a spoon or fork?

They’re not ancestors, dude. One was born in Hungary, one was born in England, and the other has a Syrian father. A father doesn’t qualify as an ancestor.

While you’re at it you can throw in Sergey Brin, a Russian-born Russian. If you don’t know who he is (hint) Google him.

Those chopstick-using Asians make up a hugely disproportionate percentage of people accepted at America’s best universities, and would make up an even higher percentage if admissions were race-blind.

When you point out that everyone can trace their ancestry to somewhere else, you’re shooting yourself in the foot. If we’d always had the attitude that the Chinese, for example, were chopstick-wielding barbarians, we wouldn’t have a country.

And, to make this vaguely pool-related, Asians would kick our asses in pool, as Jay Helfert points out.

 

[champ2107]

I knew when I named this thread.

That it wouldn't take long for the thread itself to become the proof.

7 pages later.................. alive and well as advertised!!

A lot of enlightened views too, which is refreshing.

where are you from? i have not read this thread.

 

[JC]

Why are you quick to call an entire country arrogant for doing the exact same thing you are doing in this thread?

You are upset because westerners are saying Chinese products are all crap, yet you are calling all westerners arrogant. How do you not see the irony in that?
Enlightenment you say?

And in case you missed it I will say it again, not all Chinese made products are crap just like not all westerners are arrogant.

It seems like all your wanting to do is start trouble.

I said it was alive and well and that also there are a lot of enlightened responses too. Alive and well isn't everyone nor did I say or even remotely imply that it was. Others here did say that all Chinese stuff is crap though. Can you please at least make an attempt to understand the written word before you go off? I'm starting trouble? Me?

 

[Cdryden]

I said it was alive and well and that also there are a lot of enlightened responses too. Alive and well isn't everyone nor did I say or even remotely imply that it was. Others here did say that all Chinese stuff is crap though. Can you please at least make an attempt to understand the written word before you go off? I'm starting trouble? Me?

I think I understood it perfectly well. Church it up however you like, I don't think anyone was fooled by your intentions.

 

[barboxbanks]

I really don't understand everyone's problem with Non-American made cues. I've shot and played with every thing from Benson, Lebow, Schon and various other customs but I keep turning back to my Lucasi. I'm not saying those cue makers don't make an amazing product but it's all really personal preference. I have a friend I shoot with on a regular basis who is a AAA rated player in the state of Oregon, he plays with a ebony & ivory loaded Sheldon Lebow, absolutely loves the cue. Last week I picked up a new Player's HXT cue to test drive (new LD shaft w/ Kamui soft tip) had him play with it, when he was done the only thing he said was "Where can I buy one?" He actually offered me his 314-2 in exchange for it. I think it's foolish to sit back and deny the advancements they are coming out with.

 

[JC]

I think I understood it perfectly well. Church it up however you like, I don't think anyone was fooled by your intentions.

I wasn't "churching it up" about anything. That's exactly what I said and furthermore, I didn't even single out a country at all much less imply everyone there in the country I didn't single out was guilty of anything.

Seems to me like it's you who's got the agenda and the attitude problem along with the dubious intentions.