What Billiard Table Do You Prefer?

DJSTEVEZ

Professor of Human Moves
Silver Member
For those who play Billiards, 3 cushion or otherwise, what brand & model Billiard table would you prefer to play on in your local Pool room or Billiard Club?

Back in the day, Soren Sogaard was THEE Billiard Table.

THOUGHTS?
 
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pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Verhoeven became favored...the rubber was a tad slower...which carom players prefer.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those who play Billiards, 3 cushion or otherwise, what brand & model Billiard table would you prefer to play on in your local Pool room or Billiard Club?

Back in the day, Soren Sogaard was THEE Billiard Table.

THOUGHTS?

For a public room I'd stay away from Soren Sogaard unless the room is willing to regularly clean the table. In that case it would be just fine. The reason Sogaard was so popular was simply because they were basically the first European heated tables to hit the US market. I'm told their heating system is the best by a specialist 3C table mechanic.

Even though I could likely have gotten a better deal on a Gabriels I chose a Verhoeven Paramount for my personal table. The reason is simply personal preference for the T-Rail design rather than the rail bolts running vertically through the slate. I feel its a stronger design and how Verhoeven designs their rail, its extra strong. Two staggered rows of bolts.

There's drawbacks with both designs but if you're aware of them they can be addressed. With the T-Rail you have to make sure the rail is all the way down on the slate. Since there's no clamp load vertically the rail could be high. With the old Brunswick T-Rails the corners were the most problematic. A simple clamp or a heavy man sitting on the corner while the bolts were tightened usually solved the problem.

With the other design - Bolts running vertically you have to make sure the rail is straight. They can be bowed, even when new. Snug the rail up then give it a hip check to move it in or a long bar clamp. Hip checks usually work though. Just make sure the rail is snug enough to stay in place after the check and not so snug it can't move.

As far as the heating systems go, I've never seen the Sogaard but the Verhoeven uses 3 heating boxes containing a wire criss-crossed. The boxes are somewhat fragile but once installed all is good. No worries at that point. The only strange thing is they don't heat well within an inch or so from the rail. Not an issue, just strange.

The Gabriels uses a some sort of plastic sheet that looks like a circuit board that slides under each slate. They work just fine. The only thing issue wise is all Gabriel tables are shipped 220V so you need either a 220 power supply or a decent transformer. They're not very expensive. Just another thing to get squared away. Also note what was said on the Carom Forum. Be sure to have a dedicated circuit. Nothing else on that line.

Chevillotte I don't know much about although I played on Mazin's Europa model and just loved how he had it set up. What I don't like is the rail top is a couple millimeters higher than the cushion. Verhoeven does the same thing but the rail is wood rather than laminate. I think it promotes dings in shaft. So far its not a problem for me on my table. Gabriel and Sogaard the top is even with the cushion.
 
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Texas Carom Club

pool is stupid and i hate all of you
Silver Member
STEVE, you thinking to get one?hope that light still serves you well

guess im like shortbusruss, i cant helpmyself

i own a soren, its the simplest table to assemble
simplest to change cloth

its 10ft heated super royal model, but i dont use the heater, no need

the heater is 1 piece of wood, with what im guessing is wire underneath with styrophom or some other material covering the heating element underneath

i had a gabriels, and tried my hand at doing cloth changes,
but since they dont want to pay enough, i said forget it,you cannot service these tables without atleast 3 people

plus the older gabriels with diamond wood rails are such a pain in the ass, you have to lift the entire rail and skirts off and rotate that big thing at once, you cant get to the skirts while the rails are on the table
the gabriels heating can sag in places, since its a thin plastic sheet, held up by some metal bars,
but can be helped with cardboard under

soren you can get to the skirts easy and not have to take off the rails with it

the soren is the easiest table to assemble on the planet, minus the 4 or so guys you need to lift the 500 plus lb slates,


he said it right, its all up to what you like to look at and how much you got to spend
if i had my choice, id get a SAM regenta, classic 6leg solid wood table, 9ft unheated (4000 euros)
so no one would mistake me for a 3c player

sam has the best priced carom tables of top quality,

everything else is just way over priced, soren included,
i got my soren when i traded away that gabriels for it

gabriels is ugly and over priced, all you see everywhere is black table blue cloth

soren is nice

verhoeven is nice, just over priced and they "barrowed" the design from soren, as ms marie louise, owner of soren sogaard, told me the verhoeven family used to tour thier factory before going into business,

sam looks kool, different, and is thousands cheaper than any 10ft heated carom at 5500 euros



chevillotte is super priced if you buy from them direct, 13k, no thanks


breton looks nice, but costly,min same thing

buy whatever you can afford, it wont make a difference at all, even if your a pro


stop spending 10k on carom tables, and mayb carom would come back even better than it already is in the usa
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
For a public room I'd stay away from Soren Sogaard unless the room is willing to regularly clean the table. In that case it would be just fine. The reason Sogaard was so popular was simply because they were basically the first European heated tables to hit the US market. I'm told their heating system is the best by a specialist 3C table mechanic.

Even though I could likely have gotten a better deal on a Gabriels I chose a Verhoeven Paramount for my personal table. The reason is simply personal preference for the T-Rail design rather than the rail bolts running vertically through the slate. I feel its a stronger design and how Verhoeven designs their rail, its extra strong. Two staggered rows of bolts.

(There's drawbacks with both designs but if you're aware of them they can be addressed. With the T-Rail you have to make sure the rail is all the way down on the slate. Since there's no clamp load vertically the rail could be high. With the old Brunswick T-Rails the corners were the most problematic. A simple clamp or a heavy man sitting on the corner while the bolts were tightened usually solved the problem.

With the other design - Bolts running vertically you have to make sure the rail is straight. They can be bowed, even when new. Snug the rail up then give it a hip check to move it in or a long bar clamp. Hip checks usually work though. Just make sure the rail is snug enough to stay in place after the check and not so snug it can't move.)

As far as the heating systems go, I've never seen the Sogaard but the Verhoeven uses 3 heating boxes containing a wire criss-crossed. The boxes are somewhat fragile but once installed all is good. No worries at that point. The only strange thing is they don't heat well within an inch or so from the rail. Not an issue, just strange.

The Gabriels uses a some sort of plastic sheet that looks like a circuit board that slides under each slate. They work just fine. The only thing issue wise is all Gabriel tables are shipped 220V so you need either a 220 power supply or a decent transformer. They're not very expensive. Just another thing to get squared away. Also note what was said on the Carom Forum. Be sure to have a dedicated circuit. Nothing else on that line.

Chevillotte I don't know much about although I played on Mazin's Europa model and just loved how he had it set up. What I don't like is the rail top is a couple millimeters higher than the cushion. Verhoeven does the same thing but the rail is wood rather than laminate. I think it promotes dings in shaft. So far its not a problem for me on my table. Gabriel and Sogaard the top is even with the cushion.
Thanks for explaining that...I've always favored the vertical bolts at snooker...
...the T-rail set requires steel block cushions to be acceptable in world class tournaments.

A old billiard mechanic told me years ago that a combination of the two systems would
be ideal because they both have strengths and weaknesses..
 

Runner

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just a question.. why are billiard tables heated, but 9' pool tables aren't?

check that.. just looked it up, heating keeps the slate and rails consistent for
4 and 5 railers.. which you don't see much in pocket billiards.
 
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Texas Carom Club

pool is stupid and i hate all of you
Silver Member
Good question, why does any billiard need heating

I just dont know, or need it

If you need electricity running through your table to enjoy it, its just a tad absurd imo


Cant speak for the professional side, but for recreational, like most of us, just dont get it

Ball rolls faster, so?
 

SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
STEVE, you thinking to get one?hope that light still serves you well

guess im like shortbusruss, i cant helpmyself

i own a soren, its the simplest table to assemble
simplest to change cloth

its 10ft heated super royal model, but i dont use the heater, no need

the heater is 1 piece of wood, with what im guessing is wire underneath with styrophom or some other material covering the heating element underneath

i had a gabriels, and tried my hand at doing cloth changes,
but since they dont want to pay enough, i said forget it,you cannot service these tables without atleast 3 people

plus the older gabriels with diamond wood rails are such a pain in the ass, you have to lift the entire rail and skirts off and rotate that big thing at once, you cant get to the skirts while the rails are on the table
the gabriels heating can sag in places, since its a thin plastic sheet, held up by some metal bars,
but can be helped with cardboard under

soren you can get to the skirts easy and not have to take off the rails with it

the soren is the easiest table to assemble on the planet, minus the 4 or so guys you need to lift the 500 plus lb slates,


he said it right, its all up to what you like to look at and how much you got to spend
if i had my choice, id get a SAM regenta, classic 6leg solid wood table, 9ft unheated (4000 euros)
so no one would mistake me for a 3c player

sam has the best priced carom tables of top quality,

everything else is just way over priced, soren included,
i got my soren when i traded away that gabriels for it

gabriels is ugly and over priced, all you see everywhere is black table blue cloth

soren is nice

verhoeven is nice, just over priced and they "barrowed" the design from soren, as ms marie louise, owner of soren sogaard, told me the verhoeven family used to tour thier factory before going into business,

sam looks kool, different, and is thousands cheaper than any 10ft heated carom at 5500 euros



chevillotte is super priced if you buy from them direct, 13k, no thanks


breton looks nice, but costly,min same thing

buy whatever you can afford, it wont make a difference at all, even if your a pro


stop spending 10k on carom tables, and mayb carom would come back even better than it already is in the usa

Why are you saying the Soren tables don't,need to be heated?

Ours lost the heater and I'm thinking of replacing it. Though that takes a lot of effort and if it's unnecessary I would not do so.
Thanks
 

Texas Carom Club

pool is stupid and i hate all of you
Silver Member
Why are you saying the Soren tables don't,need to be heated?

Ours lost the heater and I'm thinking of replacing it. Though that takes a lot of effort and if it's unnecessary I would not do so.
Thanks


All i said was i dont heat mine, ive had 2 tables 2 kinds of cloth, heater on or off,i dont see much of a difference


Use royal pro cloth before buying a heater, much less expensive and will be pretty fast
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
Good question, why does any billiard need heating

I just dont know, or need it

If you need electricity running through your table to enjoy it, its just a tad absurd imo


Cant speak for the professional side, but for recreational, like most of us, just dont get it

Ball rolls faster, so?

Heated tables stay dry....so rails don't bank short and quick in humid conditions.
....you also get consistency of speed....a cold table is slower than a warm one.


I once walked into a room at 9:00 AM.....just as it was opening...it was winter in Toronto. They used to turn the heat completely off at night...it was cold.
One of the gamblers walked in....I got him to the furthest table from the front near a window...
...gave him five tries to hit 9 rails...$50 a whack....he lost $300...
...now we're back at the front...the heat is starting to work..and we're near the kitchen
which is being fired up......told him..."I'll take the same bet...won another $300...:grin:

He said "Thanks for the coffee, it's pretty good, but it sure aint worth $600.
 

Bob Jewett

AZB Osmium Member
Staff member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why are you saying the Soren tables don't,need to be heated?

Ours lost the heater and I'm thinking of replacing it. Though that takes a lot of effort and if it's unnecessary I would not do so.
Thanks

Humidity and cleanliness can make a huge difference in how the cushions play. For a lot of players who don't yet play shots that benefit from good conditions, heating may not be important. If you want or need your table to play consistently from day to day, a heater will help.

As for pool not having heaters.... I've seen pool tournaments where the tables were not even brushed for the entire tournament. And I've seen top pool players clean the table and balls on their own. Some don't care and some do.
 

3kushn

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks for explaining that...I've always favored the vertical bolts at snooker...
...the T-rail set requires steel block cushions to be acceptable in world class tournaments.

A old billiard mechanic told me years ago that a combination of the two systems would
be ideal because they both have strengths and weaknesses..

I've thought a little about this and so far the only solution I've come up with is for say either the slate or the side would have a dovetail connection (the rail would slide into place) then bolts to secure the other direction. To avoid requiring an extra 10' to install the long rail, the dovetail would be several pieces. Say 6" then a gap, then another 6" piece, and another gap. Align the gaps then slide it in.

Easier said than done. Still working of a better way.
 
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SBC

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Thanks guys

Since our table lost heat it does play a little slower. Going to undertake unearthing the hearing could in the backer board to replace them and get a new thermostat control. $600 bucks and several hours work. I already have new cloth. Owning a room is continual maintenance if you want things correct.
 

Texas Carom Club

pool is stupid and i hate all of you
Silver Member
Rp cloth is only 240 ish bucks
Synthetic, heating not required
Minus the hassle of dismantling the entire table
 

Texas Carom Club

pool is stupid and i hate all of you
Silver Member
The owner of where i stopped played only wants gabriels tables because he says if his players see a different table they might now want to play on it

The same players that act like there are different sets for games, they cant play with any undotted ball set


Makes me want to pull whats left of my hair out of my head
3c has done to carom what bar players have done to pool
 

KissedOut

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For those who play Billiards, 3 cushion or otherwise, what brand & model Billiard table would you prefer to play on in your local Pool room or Billiard Club?

Back in the day, Soren Sogaard was THEE Billiard Table.

THOUGHTS?

I suspect for a lot of us it is whatever is in driving distance. I'm very happy with the Gabriels table and the recently added Verhoeven table that we have in our Sr. center. But I'm not nearly a good enough, or experienced, a player to have my opinion count.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
Heated tables stay dry....so rails don't bank short and quick in humid conditions.
....you also get consistency of speed....a cold table is slower than a warm one.


I once walked into a room at 9:00 AM.....just as it was opening...it was winter in Toronto. They used to turn the heat completely off at night...it was cold.
One of the gamblers walked in....I got him to the furthest table from the front near a window...
...gave him five tries to hit 9 rails...$50 a whack....he lost $300...
...now we're back at the front...the heat is starting to work..and we're near the kitchen
which is being fired up......told him..."I'll take the same bet...won another $300...:grin:

He said "Thanks for the coffee, it's pretty good, but it sure aint worth $600.



You are a devious man my friend! I was struggling playing one pocket on a table in the summertime. Turned out the old cooling system ran 24-7 in the summer and the air blew well over one set of side rails and blasted directly on the side rails of the other side. The side rails banked way different than each other and the end rails played different on one end of each one than the other end played. Probably ten or fifteen degrees difference in the coldest and warmest parts of the cushions. Gaff tables are fun. Once you learn the tricks of the table you share them with everyone that plays on that table with you of course! :grin-devilish:

Hu
 

xianmacx

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I suspect for a lot of us it is whatever is in driving distance. I'm very happy with the Gabriels table and the recently added Verhoeven table that we have in our Sr. center. But I'm not nearly a good enough, or experienced, a player to have my opinion count.

I agree. There are so few tables, I am just happy to find one at all.
 

pt109

WO double hemlock
Silver Member
You are a devious man my friend! I was struggling playing one pocket on a table in the summertime. Turned out the old cooling system ran 24-7 in the summer and the air blew well over one set of side rails and blasted directly on the side rails of the other side. The side rails banked way different than each other and the end rails played different on one end of each one than the other end played. Probably ten or fifteen degrees difference in the coldest and warmest parts of the cushions. Gaff tables are fun. Once you learn the tricks of the table you share them with everyone that plays on that table with you of course! :grin-devilish:

Hu

I'm playing a match on conditions I like....GCI with 760 Simonis.
Larry Liscotti is betting on me on the side.
To end the match 9-4 , I got to get on the 4-ball, it's only got one pocket....so I play the
3-ball down the long rail with high-inside english, short rail to long rail near the side pocket..
....I hit about a quarter inch from the side pocket for the third rail..:eek:
....but an easy out from there.

I went over to Liscotti after and said "Larry, did you see that 3-ball? I know that shot like
the back of my own hand...it should hit a half diamond from the side."
Larry says "See that hallway to the washrooms? There's an exit at the end...cold, damp
air is coming through and hitting that end rail."
I was fairly sharp on the road....but some guys were sharper....:smile:
 
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