What cue stroke are you using?

[Mikjary]

Mike,

I hear what you're saying but I've seen the video that some have offered up & while the cue stays more level going back by feathering open & I would say that that is a good thing & certainly changes the approach angle which I would also say is good, I've noticed that the tip has dived down at the finish unless on some shots the elbow drops to keep the cue moving level.

As some have said they, I & probably many use many variations while playing the game.

As I have said before, IF there is straight/'level' tip travel in a fixed elbow there must be an associated bio-mechanism for it to occur. You & Renfo/Chris have offered similar explanations in that it is in a certain grip/wrist action. I would agree that it would have to be there as there is no other option with the elbow pinned in space.

That brings me back to the cradle grip with the cue just sitting in the curl of the fingers that I had thought was the prescribed grip for the pendulum stroke.

Do you see any way to get several inches of straight/'level' tip travel while using a cradle grip with a fixed elbow arm swing?

Best to Y'a,
Rick

Rick,

I'd have to say I think the amount of straight travel with a pendulum stroke would be about the width of a hand. It technically cannot be geometrically "straight" because we're talking about an arc, but biomechanically it is straight enough to not affect the hit on the cue ball.

It all depends on the definition of "straight". You can use it like..."You can all go straight to (insert word here)", or "I hit the golf ball straight down the fairway." The first analogy is between two points. The second will never happen, ever!

Best,
Mike

 

[sfleinen]

Now that Mr. Obstinate has me on ignore, I will post this little video showing that using the pendulum stroke, the cue will indeed be "level" for several inches before contact. (level as the table allows) Just in case there were any that actually thought his bogus claims had any merit:wink:...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNIW3zwmeYo&feature=youtu.be

I suggest placing a piece of paper along the line of my cue, then hit play, pause, play, pause, ect. That way, you can readily see just how far the cue stays on the same plane.

Then yet, maybe I'm doing it wrong because my cue doesn't describe a large arc like he says it's supposed to.???

edit: oops, my hand hit my chest! My alignment must be way off! Darn!

Good video, Neil. :thumbup2:

Couple of things:

1. I just checked this thread after a few days (not here as much these days, as you know), and, judging by the sheer volume of quoted copies of his posts, Mr. Obstinate has certainly been busy!

2. I see where he quoted my name as "one of a few people who 'derailed' his thread," when I posted in this thread exactly one time -- one(!) -- prior to this one.

3. Sad to see someone get *so* fixated and brain-spinlocked on such a trivial thing as "what type of stroke is taught by certified instructors as a baseline model of simplicity and ease-of-troubleshooting." There are such interesting examples of human behavior where people get brain-spinlocked on such stupid sh*t. For instance, I once knew a guy in the market for a new car, and his biggest thing was that the car had a wiper for the rear window. Nothing else. I'm not kidding. The car can have all the latest awards for performance, value for the dollar, value retention, etc., and this guy wouldn't even look at the car if it didn't have a rear window wiper. The salesman can expound on the features of the engine and drivetrain, the chassis, the looks of the car, how well the car performs on the road (and it would clearly shine on a road test), etc. -- and if the car didn't have a rear window wiper, that would be a full-stop show-stopper. He'd walk away. You can try to convince him that due to the factory application of commercial Rain-X to the rear window, that a wiper isn't necessary, and clearly demonstrate it -- videos of the car going through the car wash and the rinse water just beading and misting away instantly. He'd give you the "talk to the hand" motion and walk away. It's almost like a real-life example of the main character in the movie "As Good as it Gets." (I think of this "rear window wiper" fixated guy -- and the OP -- everytime I watch this movie.)

4. What's interesting is that among all the items I enumerated in my previous one-and-only post in this thread (post #52), that he fixated on only one aspect, and ignored all others -- i.e. the "needing to watch the cue travel for straightness" bouncing-elbow stroke aspect that HE HIMSELF mentioned in that dark blue text you quoted (post #51), and I merely regurgitated. Notice he didn't respond to any of my other points, which are actually more important than the trivial "needing to watch the cue for straight travel" thing.

5. Your video clearly demonstrates the ability for a fixed elbow pendulum stroke to deliver a level, straight-traveling cue without the sheer level of "up and down bouncing" that he "thinks" is part and parcel with the pendulum stroke. Again, clear evidence that he's using only conjecture and supposition -- and never actually took this to the table, or filmed himself doing a fixed elbow pendulum stroke.

6. Oh, btw -- I *love* the fact that he tries to compare his "rebel against the pendulum stroke" with the days of Galileo, Copernicus, et. al proving the world is round (vs flat) and is not the center of the universe, etc. To use that analogy for something so stupid as rebelling against the pendulum stroke is just mindblowing. That borders on megalomania.

Truly sad.
-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

Rick,

I'd have to say I think the amount of straight travel with a pendulum stroke would be about the width of a hand. It technically cannot be geometrically "straight" because we're talking about an arc, but biomechanically it is straight enough to not affect the hit on the cue ball.

It all depends on the definition of "straight". You can use it like..."You can all go straight to (insert word here)", or "I hit the golf ball straight down the fairway." The first analogy is between two points. The second will never happen, ever!

Best,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Okay...

So are you saying that randG's assertion was technically incorrect?

And that the arc is on such a small slope as to be nearly straight?

If so, I can accept that. But I will still contend that any difference can make a difference. If there is a difference than it's not identical. Granted it might only be a small difference but when you are talking about 3 millimeters any small difference can make a difference.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

 

[Tony_in_MD]

Sean if I may speculate. His whole world revolves around this forum. This site and his interactions feed his ego.

Sometimes an online persona is very different than the living one in this case, I am not so sure.

I am sure you have seen the types as you work in that digital world as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

 

[Ghosst]

Good video, Neil. :thumbup2:

Alright Sean, here's a thought: Yourself, Neil, Rick, Scott, Randy, Fran, Dr. Dave, and Bob (and any other instructor or instructor-level player) each post two videos. Pendulum stroke and piston stroke (or 3 if you have a third variant of your own).

No excuses, no "I have poopy camera". Post the videos. Let's see what we all have. (Lou, find me a wig so I can keep up the whole hairy seal-hunting Inuit thing going.)

 

[Neil]

Alright Sean, here's a thought: Yourself, Neil, Rick, Scott, Randy, Fran, Dr. Dave, and Bob (and any other instructor or instructor-level player) each post two videos. Pendulum stroke and piston stroke (or 3 if you have a third variant of your own).

No excuses, no "I have poopy camera". Post the videos. Let's see what we all have. (Lou, find me a wig so I can keep up the whole hairy seal-hunting Inuit thing going.)

Why, what are you looking for?

 

[sfleinen]

Alright Sean, here's a thought: Yourself, Neil, Rick, Scott, Randy, Fran, Dr. Dave, and Bob (and any other instructor or instructor-level player) each post two videos. Pendulum stroke and piston stroke (or 3 if you have a third variant of your own).

No excuses, no "I have poopy camera". Post the videos. Let's see what we all have. (Lou, find me a wig so I can keep up the whole hairy seal-hunting Inuit thing going.)

Dana:

Hmm... the point of my post was exactly the OPPOSITE of this -- to illustrate how stupid all this one man's hub-bub about the pendulum stroke really is (i.e. "most important feature on the car is the rear window wiper"). So I'm not sure what this would prove. In fact, this might actually EXACERBATE the problem, no?

-Sean

 

[Ghosst]

Why, what are you looking for?

Just some insight. Your first video is great, short, to the point good camera angle and all. I'd like to see you perform the piston from the same angle. Or, everyone can email me the video files and I can compile them into one video.

Think of it as a learning experience for all of the lurkers who don't post. I think it would be a great tool. Sean and I had a thought about another video, but we were both too busy to get it off the ground.

 

[Ghosst]

I'm not sure what this would prove. In fact, this might actually EXACERBATE the problem, no?

It might show some other things, but if I hint at them then it alters the results. It may prove nothing. Let's see...

 

[ENGLISH!]

Good video, Neil. :thumbup2:

Couple of things:

1. I just checked this thread after a few days (not here as much these days, as you know), and, judging by the sheer volume of quoted copies of his posts, Mr. Obstinate has certainly been busy!

2. I see where he quoted my name as "one of a few people who 'derailed' his thread," when I posted in this thread exactly one time -- one(!) -- prior to this one.

3. Sad to see someone get *so* fixated and brain-spinlocked on such a trivial thing as "what type of stroke is taught by certified instructors as a baseline model of simplicity and ease-of-troubleshooting." There are such interesting examples of human behavior where people get brain-spinlocked on such stupid sh*t. For instance, I once knew a guy in the market for a new car, and his biggest thing was that the car had a wiper for the rear window. Nothing else. I'm not kidding. The car can have all the latest awards for performance, value for the dollar, value retention, etc., and this guy wouldn't even look at the car if it didn't have a rear window wiper. The salesman can expound on the features of the engine and drivetrain, the chassis, the looks of the car, how well the car performs on the road (and it would clearly shine on a road test), etc. -- and if the car didn't have a rear window wiper, that would be a full-stop show-stopper. He'd walk away. You can try to convince him that due to the factory application of commercial Rain-X to the rear window, that a wiper isn't necessary, and clearly demonstrate it -- videos of the car going through the car wash and the rinse water just beading and misting away instantly. He'd give you the "talk to the hand" motion and walk away. It's almost like a real-life example of the main character in the movie "As Good as it Gets." (I think of this "rear window wiper" fixated guy -- and the OP -- everytime I watch this movie.)

4. What's interesting is that among all the items I enumerated in my previous one-and-only post in this thread (post #52), that he fixated on only one aspect, and ignored all others -- i.e. the "needing to watch the cue travel for straightness" bouncing-elbow stroke aspect that HE HIMSELF mentioned in that dark blue text you quoted (post #51), and I merely regurgitated. Notice he didn't respond to any of my other points, which are actually more important than the trivial "needing to watch the cue for straight travel" thing.

5. Your video clearly demonstrates the ability for a fixed elbow pendulum stroke to deliver a level, straight-traveling cue without the sheer level of "up and down bouncing" that he "thinks" is part and parcel with the pendulum stroke. Again, clear evidence that he's using only conjecture and supposition -- and never actually took this to the table, or filmed himself doing a fixed elbow pendulum stroke.

6. Oh, btw -- I *love* the fact that he tries to compare his "rebel against the pendulum stroke" with the days of Galileo, Copernicus, et. al proving the world is round (vs flat) and is not the center of the universe, etc. To use that analogy for something so stupid as rebelling against the pendulum stroke is just mindblowing. That borders on megalomania.

Truly sad.
-Sean

Sorry, no candy for the troll children today either.

 

[Neil]

Just some insight. Your first video is great, short, to the point good camera angle and all. I'd like to see you perform the piston from the same angle. Or, everyone can email me the video files and I can compile them into one video.

Think of it as a learning experience for all of the lurkers who don't post. I think it would be a great tool. Sean and I had a thought about another video, but we were both too busy to get it off the ground.

There are already tons of videos on the net showing both styles. A pendulum stroke the elbow doesn't drop or drops very little before contact with the cb. A piston stroke the elbow drops immediately or very close to it. The advantage of a pendulum stroke is less moving parts, therefore making it easier to hit the target precisely and repeatedly. That's all there is to it, not all the hub-a-loo that some try and make of it.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Sean if I may speculate. His whole world revolves around this forum. This site and his interactions feed his ego.

Sometimes an online persona is very different than the living one in this case, I am not so sure.

I am sure you have seen the types as you work in that digital world as well.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk.

See post #150

 

[sfleinen]

It might show some other things, but if I hint at them then it alters the results. It may prove nothing. Let's see...

That's true -- the "here it is, take from it what you will" aspect. It might prove something, it might not. The value is up to the viewer. Good point.

Not sure how good my Galaxy SIII's video camera is, but I'll have to try it and see.

-Sean

 

[Ghosst]

There are already tons of videos on the net showing both styles.

Neil, I want to see your version so I understand how you execute it. I can post a video too if wanted.

 

[Neil]

Sorry, no candy for the troll children today either.

That's not true! I just saw where you got a bunch of sour-balls in several other threads!

 

[Mikjary]

Hi Mike,

Okay...

So are you saying that randG's assertion was technically incorrect?

And that the arc is on such a small slope as to be nearly straight?

If so, I can accept that. But I will still contend that any difference can make a difference. If there is a difference than it's not identical. Granted it might only be a small difference but when you are talking about 3 millimeters any small difference can make a difference.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

I think that "straight" not affecting the stroke could also be broken down into the player's ability or inability to deliver good tip contact during the bottom of the pendulum.

Advanced players could do a lot better job contacting the cue ball in a shorter time frame than a beginner. Even if the novice makes a textbook pendulum stroke, I'm sure the technique will be choppy with little accuracy.

Best,
Mike

 

[HueblerHustler7]

I play with my stroke that puts the object ball in the pocket and leaves me position for the next ball, at one time I tried just about anything to bridge, stroke, stand and look a certain way and it ruined my game. Concentrate on being consistent...

-Drew

 

[ENGLISH!]

I think that "straight" not affecting the stroke could also be broken down into the player's ability or inability to deliver good tip contact during the bottom of the pendulum.

Advanced players could do a lot better job contacting the cue ball in a shorter time frame than a beginner. Even if the novice makes a textbook pendulum stroke, I'm sure the technique will be choppy with little accuracy.

Best,
Mike

Mike,

I guess you too are not going to answer my questions.

Are you just being diplomatic?

If so, please PM me.

Best to Y'a,
Rick

 

[ENGLISH!]

I play with my stroke that puts the object ball in the pocket and leaves me position for the next ball, at one time I tried just about anything to bridge, stroke, stand and look a certain way and it ruined my game. Concentrate on being consistent...

-Drew

That's how I feel. Since I started when I was 13, I just naturally gravitated to my stance, bridge, & stroke. They have always worked so there was never a need to try anything else.

Like Bager Vance said, You need to find your one own true authentic swing (stroke) that's yours & nobody else's.

I've seen a few contrived methods in the hall as of late.

I just helped a guy a few weeks ago by first asking if I could suggest something & then telling him that he might want to try to hold the cue a bit farther back. I saw him a couple of day ago & he thanked me & said that it had made a huge difference.

Very little things can make huge differences, both good...& bad. JMO of course.

Thanks for the input.

Best Wishes,
Rick

 

[BeiberLvr]

Rick,

Honest question looking for an honest answer.

Do you believe that a piston stroke can make more types of shots than a pendulum stroke?