What determines going price for a cue maker's cues?

jetlau3

jetlau3

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Years ago, when deciding from whom to purchase a custom cue from, price was a big consideration.. I was looking for something semi fancy (points, veneers, inlays, leather wrap..etc) for under $2000.

I had many makers to choose from and after reading many reviews, I settled on Jim Buss. However, years later, I've noticed that the price of Buss cues have stayed the same or even gone down a bit, whereas many of the cuemakers whom I passed on, their starting prices have gone through the roof..

What exactly is this based on? Demand? Quality? I place my Buss second to none in quality, hit, etc.. but his cues just don't draw the same demand/price as many others.. Is it strictly based on how much demand there is for a particular cue on the market or do the maker's self dictated price have a lot to do with the market value of his cues?
 
I think demand makes up a lot of certain cuemakers going prices. If there is huge demand, then the wait to get a cue gets longer. The harder it is to get a cue, the more money it commands, for the most part. Of course the quality of work is nearly flawless for these cues also. Having the right people like your cues also helps, I would think. There are so many cue makers out there, and there has to be a few getting a raw deal, because their names are not known like others. There work may be just as good, but they cannot ask for the prices that some cuemakers can. I am sure others may know better then me about the current market and how it works.

I think you did just fine with your Buss, btw.:thumbup:
 
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I think pedigree,

Brand name,

and of course Hype.

All has an effect on the price of custom cues.
 
jetlau3 said:
Years ago, when deciding from whom to purchase a custom cue from, price was a big consideration.. I was looking for something semi fancy (points, veneers, inlays, leather wrap..etc) for under $2000.

I had many makers to choose from and after reading many reviews, I settled on Jim Buss. However, years later, I've noticed that the price of Buss cues have stayed the same or even gone down a bit, whereas many of the cuemakers whom I passed on, their starting prices have gone through the roof..

What exactly is this based on? Demand? Quality? I place my Buss second to none in quality, hit, etc.. but his cues just don't draw the same demand/price as many others.. Is it strictly based on how much demand there is for a particular cue on the market or do the maker's self dictated price have a lot to do with the market value of his cues?
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This is a really interesting question, and I suspect that there are many many things that effect the price of cues in the market place. First I totally agree with you Jim Buss makes cues that are equal or better than anyone in the business. While I think that none of the current cue makers who are top tear make anything less than a high quality product, but a high quality product as you have stated above doesn't always dictate the price of cues.

I think that quantity of cues made by a cue maker also is something that influences the market once some one becomes a top tear cue maker. If they only make a small number of cues per year there will be more speculation and competition to get the cues produced, so supply and demand most likely also plays a part in prices.

Another factor that influences the market is the type of cues a cue maker builds. In my opinion there are two types of cue makers, those that mainly make players cues and those who strictly make collectors cues, not saying that some cue makers don't fall into both categories. A good example is South West, their cues can certainly fall into either category, and they also make a limited number of quality cues per year so there is a larger demand.

Last in many cases what cues are selling for in the secondary market also will have a major effect on what a cue makers cues are worth. Collectors and cue dealers drive this market, this is where speculation comes into the market. Many people watch what collectors are buying in the cue market just like the stock market and others follow suite trying to get in on the ground floor before prices rise. Sometimes people win and some times people loose, because the market is fickled and peoples tastes change, or cue makers fall out of favor for other reasons. But, in the end I think a cues value should be based upon personal opinion and whether they go up or down in value if what you have works well for you it shouldn't really matter much anyway.

JIMO
 
Basically it is based on supply and demand. This also goes with quality, workmanship, material, and cue making expertise. As players recognize all of these things the price goes up. Naturally it is also up to the cuemaker. If he is not selling he must lower his price. But if he lowers the prices too much there is a perception value that the cues cannot be that good because they are too cheap. If there is a waiting list he can afford to raise the price. The waiting list affects the resale as some cannot wait and will pay a premium to get one.

Some cue makers will charge what they feel is fair and others as much as they can get. This is just something that the buyer has to figure out. If you like a cue and feel it is a fair price that is all that matters. It is like stocks if you can figure it out you can make some profits.
 
TheBook said:
Basically it is based on supply and demand.
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That's all it is.

240px-Supply-and-demand.svg.png


P= price
Q= quantity

The equilibrium price of something is where the Demand curve meets the Supply curve.

The less available quantity, the more you are willing to pay for it. The curve itself represents a commodity. Preferences shift the curve. So, if D1 is a plain jane cue and you like points your demand curve shifts to D2 for a fancier cue. Now you are willing to pay a higher price (P1 to P2).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
 
One factor that people fail to consider is the builder's cost of living. A guy building cues in Tennessee might have 10 acres with a 3000sqft home & 5000sqft shop, and be paying $1200/month mortgage. Another guy building cues in LA might have an apartment for $1600/month & have to rent a shop for another $1000+/month. The guy in Tennesse pays $2.60/gallon in gas and he walks to work in his back yard. The guy in LA pays $4/gallon & drives to his shop every day.

Naturally, the guy in LA has to get more for his work. It's economics 101. The tricky part is that cues all are pretty much the same, basically. So the guy in LA building the exact same cue as the guy in TN has to get twice as much cash for it and this seems to confuse buyers. The cue market is world-wide & cuemakers are worldwide. Worse yet, a player in LA has the choice whether to buy a cue from his local guy for $1000, or he can get a comparable one from the TN guy for $500. Which will he get?

Aside from the economics of it all, there are other dynamics that work into the mix. Cuemakers get better with time and practice. As such, it's only natural that they get more for their cues as their knowledge & skill are expanded, just like in any other job. But some builders do not raise their prices & that confuses people and kinda screws with the market. Another thing to consider is human nature. People automatically think that the higher cost items are the better items, you get what you pay for. That's even mostly true, but not always. Again, it can go back to LA & TN.

It's a tricky market for sure. I doubt anybody has it completely figured out. The top cue dealers likely have the best understanding. But there are a few obvious things that people just fail to consider or aknowledge.
 
You guys all make very good points. I took quality, experience, and reputation into account but I guess those aren't all the factors haha. Does anyone know how many cues Jim Buss builds a year compared to the other top tier cue makers (Southwest, Searing, Ginacue..etc)?? When I first bought my cue from Jim, he was still working in the aerospace industry and was only building cues part time..

The market is definetely nearly as hard to figure out as the stock market haha
 
Cues like everything else are worth what people will pay for them! Essentially supply and demand, if you want something you will pay for it.

Jeremy
 
qbilder said:
One factor that people fail to consider is the builder's cost of living. A guy building cues in Tennessee might have 10 acres with a 3000sqft home & 5000sqft shop, and be paying $1200/month mortgage. Another guy building cues in LA might have an apartment for $1600/month & have to rent a shop for another $1000+/month. The guy in Tennesse pays $2.60/gallon in gas and he walks to work in his back yard. The guy in LA pays $4/gallon & drives to his shop every day.
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That has everything to do with a maker's profitability and nothing to do with the demand for the maker's product ... especially on the used market which the OP seems to be referring to.

In making a decision on a custom cue, the price of the maker's rent is ridiculously far down my list.

If a product is worth $2K to me it's worth it whether the maker inherited their shop and is making money by the bushel basket ... and if he's barely scraping by I feel empathy for them, but it doesn't add value.

LWW
 
Price of cues

qbilder said:
One factor that people fail to consider is the builder's cost of living. A guy building cues in Tennessee might have 10 acres with a 3000sqft home & 5000sqft shop, and be paying $1200/month mortgage. Another guy building cues in LA might have an apartment for $1600/month & have to rent a shop for another $1000+/month. The guy in Tennesse pays $2.60/gallon in gas and he walks to work in his back yard. The guy in LA pays $4/gallon & drives to his shop every day.

Besides what qbilder had to say on the subject, all of which I agree with, the
cue makers personal financial situation has a lot to do with it . If he is retired,
like I am, and has an independent income he can afford to sell his cues for less.
Many times a purchaser of my cues states that "that is a lot of cue for the money". Maybe it is--but some of us just plain like to make cues.
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I think quality of the cue is important, some cue makers know how to make a cue but do not understand the person they are making it for. Not every brand of cue is for eveyone, different styles of play come in to effect.

I can use a Southwest and not be able to make a ball with it and pick up someones eles Southwest and not miss with it. I think it comes down to a couple of things what your willing to pay for the cue and what someone else is willing to pay. (resale value)

If you buy a cue from a cuemaker for let's say $5000 and you turn around and sell it later for $3500 not only did you lose money, but so did the cuemaker. You hurt the cuemakers name by selling it so cheap and in turn makes it harder for him to charge a good price later down the road.

Just my thoughts on the subject.
 
Supply and Demand???

Desirability = Demand = $$$$$

Most believe supply and demand create price...with pool cues that is actually usually incorrect. The desire to possess for whatever reason creates demand which in turn affects available supply and price.

Just because there is a shortage or a few of something does not necessarily create demand. If that we the case a typical cue maker could build 5 cues a year versus say 50 cues and he should be able to charge a whole lot more for the 5...the same on the secondary market.

It all boils down to.. desire to own...I must have...there has to be a special and certain attraction to a cue that attracts buyers and the more buyers that are attracted to the cue creates more $$$...and then if the supply is limited(which is driven by demand) it typically adds more $$$$.

I find it interesting and somewhat baffling on the comments that I hear on AZ like...
this cue maker is great,or nobody has heard of him or the cue maker is as good as anybody etc. .....but historically and $$$$$ wise it is not true, if it were true these cue's would be getting the $$$ they deserve. I'm not knocking any cue makers, I am just addressing cue values and pricing.
[/U]

The reason a cue in good to excellent condition depreciates in value is because of lack of desirability.

The best cues by the very best cue makers ATTRACT the money and hold their value and often appreciate in value....and that is a fact.

I believe a really great cue maker doesn't have to do much or any in the way of advertising........if a cue maker has that special something (whatever that is) and builds an awesome cue....word of mouth travels and that is absolutely the best advertising in the world.

If I see a cue I want ..I buy it.....I don't care about the " oh, the cue market is bad" because I buy the cues that are .....Desirable.

In the world today there are a handful of living cue makers that in my opinion that are producing the desirable cues, maybe 6 or 7..the best of the best.

If you have a favorite cue maker(s) that's great....but there are only a handful of great cue makers and their cues get the $$$$$ original and on the secondary market and they are worth it.

If a cue maker has that special "it" they will get the order's,the money and their cues will be even more valuable on the secondary market.

There is absolutely no mystery in buying cues that appreciate in value.
 
LWW said:
That has everything to do with a maker's profitability and nothing to do with the demand for the maker's product ... especially on the used market which the OP seems to be referring to.

In making a decision on a custom cue, the price of the maker's rent is ridiculously far down my list.

If a product is worth $2K to me it's worth it whether the maker inherited their shop and is making money by the bushel basket ... and if he's barely scraping by I feel empathy for them, but it doesn't add value.

LWW
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I read it as the OP bought a cue from the cuemaker, and is wondering why that builder's prices have not gone up while other builders have. What i'm referring to is a reason behind initial price, not secondary value. The OP was asking about price, as I see it. I think maybe we are seeing two different things.

Secondary value is another demon altogether. It is a market with no dictation. You pay what the seller asks, or you don't. The person selling the cue has no rhyme, reason or even accurate tool for gaging the value of the cue he's selling besides simply making a number up to see if he can get it, or else looking at what somebody else got for a similar cue & try to level with that. Either people pay what he wants, or they don't. Much of it has to do with having a cue available that somebody else is wanting, and offering it in a price range they expect & are ready to pay.

You also have to consider that there are as many or more wannabe cue dealers as there are cuemakers. These guys don't actually make a product, so they have to invest & capitolize when possible. They look to buy cues cheap & sell them high. Therefore, it's only natural they invest in the cues people actually show most interest in buying. Those cues are cues that people generally percieve to be of extraordinary quality but cannot be easily aquired due to the builder being dead or immensely low production rate:immensely high demand ratio. In this situatiuon, the buyers either pay premium or else they do not get the cue that they want, ever. Given that there are only a couple dozen at most cue brands that fit this category, there is a high competition level between the dealers & flippers. The guy that can aquire one of these cues cheap can cash in a several hundred or thousand dollar payday overnite with no actual labor involved. On the flip side, the guys get stuck when they invest in cues that nobody wants, and they have to wait several months or years before making a tiny profit if any at all.

Again, the secondary market is a totally different demon the the initial market. I was offering some not often considered factors for initial pricing, but apparently I read the OP wrong. For the secondary market, good luck with it. It's a jungle.
 
The players that are on the top of their game. Everyone thinks if they play with the same cue as those players, thier game will be as good as their's. It doesn't work that way. A great cue is worthless in the wrong hands.
 
Qbuilder, you definetely didn't read the OP wrong. I was wondering both about the initial pricing and the secondary market. I guess that based on perceived quality versus price.. to me, Jim Buss's cues seemed like a bargain at the time (a lot of cue for much less than others were charging). I surmised at the time that the prices might go up .. but that has not seemed to happen as Jim seems to be charging roughly the same price for a 4 point 4 veneer cue with inlays today as he did 5 years ago.. Comparatively, it seems that a lot of other cue makers have since raised their initial prices. This does not directly correspond to the secondary market value of the cue, but it does have an influence.

Just thoughts.;..

Also, since there are so many cue makers responding on this thread.. I'm going to shamelessly hijack my own thread and ask a question.. If you have 2 shafts for a cue, is it necessary to play with the backup shaft once in a while ? Someone today told me that playing with it once in a while will keep it straighter than just having it in the case all the time.. is there truth to it? I've been gaming the same shaft for 4 years and I only today pulled out the 2nd shaft, chalked it, and hit a few balls with it..
 
jetlau3 said:
Qbuilder, you definetely didn't read the OP wrong. I was wondering both about the initial pricing and the secondary market. I guess that based on perceived quality versus price.. to me, Jim Buss's cues seemed like a bargain at the time (a lot of cue for much less than others were charging). I surmised at the time that the prices might go up .. but that has not seemed to happen as Jim seems to be charging roughly the same price for a 4 point 4 veneer cue with inlays today as he did 5 years ago.. Comparatively, it seems that a lot of other cue makers have since raised their initial prices. This does not directly correspond to the secondary market value of the cue, but it does have an influence.

Just thoughts.;..

Also, since there are so many cue makers responding on this thread.. I'm going to shamelessly hijack my own thread and ask a question.. If you have 2 shafts for a cue, is it necessary to play with the backup shaft once in a while ? Someone today told me that playing with it once in a while will keep it straighter than just having it in the case all the time.. is there truth to it? I've been gaming the same shaft for 4 years and I only today pulled out the 2nd shaft, chalked it, and hit a few balls with it..
Click to expand...

I think who ever told you that not playing with a shaft may cause the wood to move / Warp must have been joking. I have seen Gus Szamboti Shafts recently from two different cues that have never hit a ball that were perfectly straight and one was made in 1981 and the other in 1986. If the wood in any shaft has straight grain, and if the wood was seasoned and turned properly and throughout the entire process it stayed true it should only get stronger with age. Now I am not saying that shafts can't warp some time in the future after they are made, because no one can say this can't happen, but if they are stored properly it should not happen and it shouldn't effect the shaft at all.

Now, I will say this normally I recommend that people play with both shafts if their cue comes with two shafts, when some one buys a cue from me. The main reason that I make this recommendation is so that the player becomes equally comfortable with either shaft. This way if they are involved in a critical match and they have a problem with a tip they can switch shafts and it shouldn't really effect their game. It addition shafts wear with time, and to add to what I said above this will also allow both shafts to wear in a similar manner.

JIMO hope this helps.
 
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