What Do You Look For in a Pool Instructor

Lou was the one who threw out a bet and it's here in black and white. I applaud him for it. I used it as a comparison to throwing a bet out to you and then you whined about it
You're pretty loose with your language which makes it difficult to converse with you. What Lou did or didn't do has zero to do with me. I also didn't whine about anything, I just dismissed your unsolicited call to matchup with some unnamed instructor because that has zero bearing on my viewpoint or yours for that matter.
What other places? It's the only pool forum out there (that I know of) with the variety of subjects and pro tournament info regarding pool. There is no competition with this format.
Ah -- that's the entire point! How'd you miss that?
And the point is? You know everything there is to know and are as good as you'll ever be? How about those who are newbies to the forum? Might THEY be interested in the live lessons offered by the instructors posting in this thread? Can't they make up their own minds based on their perceived needs? Do you think I'm some kind of newbie here that doesn't know the ropes, members backgrounds, their posting styles, their likes and dislikes, their skill and knowledge levels?
I joined here 3 years before you did and have 3 times the posts on this forum over 17 years.
Again, you just jump to conclusions. Of course I don't think I know everything. I still have much to learn. I'm also aware of you and your contributions here, and nothing I or YOU have posted should prevent anyone from making up their own mind about who they choose to work with.

Just discussing things here. Nothing more.
 
I skimmed the video and watched you hit about three shots, so I'm sure the adjustments you've already made include things like more immobility during the stroke/not standing up before you've barely followed through and etc. You look like you're rushing to catch the train home.

I don't do free lessons at AZ. I do them offline, where people can interact with me safely, comfortably. However, if you'd like to record a one-hour lesson with me on video--I can teach remotely, you can set up the recording, we can post a link to it here for all to see. I think that would quiet many of the trolls here at AZ. I'm not saying you're a troll, by the way, you are merely skeptical, skepticism is healthy.

But why anyone up to a pro level would refuse a free lesson is beyond me.

PS. Like I said, to go up an entire letter ranking will take your willingness to listen to my coaching and some eight hours of my time. :)

You skimmed the video and watched me hit three shots — tells me all I need to know.

You have a long run presented to you that would tell you all you need to know about my game. But it’s not enough. I am to instead pack my bags, travel, and incur expenses for a guy with a short attention span.

Thanks but no.

And eight hours of hours of your time? Was not your your original proposition to improve my game a whole level with an hour of instruction?

Lou Figueroa
 
This isn't a fair assessment. It's really only when instructors push a very specific remedy or product that they get any flak. Or now, we have instructors clearly pushing their lessons on here, so they should expect some questions and even skepticism. I think they are handling it just fine too. I mean, if you can't handle some minor pushback on a forum, maybe instructing isn't for you. Or just hangout in your social media echo chamber of choice and you can just delete anyone that questions you.

Clearly, not all instructors are created equal either. I remember in my early days of pool (late 1990's) we had a local room ower who was a BCA Certified instructor who literally couldn't run 5 balls. Anyone that's honest about pool instruction, knows these types are still out there. While I think we've come a long ways since those early days, pool instruction may just now be reaching its adolescence.

I strongly agree.

Especially when instructors come here with some over the top claims — those should be questioned by all and not accepted at face value.

You said “not all instructors are created equal” and that is the stone cold truth. There’s good and bad and it’s clearly a case of “buyer beware.”

Lou Figueroa
 
I think part of the issue is that when it comes to pool any SD can claim to be an “instructor.”

Lou Figueroa
True, and everyone can give the impression they're high-level players who can whip the pants offa anyone when it comes to the internet.
But when a person is a member of the PBIA and the various levels within the organization, one can pretty much rest assured
their training, hours, and diligence to acquire their designation and personal playing history has produced a knowledgeable instructor. Check below FIRST.

The requirements: https://playbetterbilliards.com/instruct/become-a-pbia-instructor/

Master Instructors: https://playbetterbilliards.com/learn/masterinstructors/
 
Last edited:
Pool instruction is beyond adolescence by far.
I strongly disagree here. As Matt alluded to, there is a whole lot of bad instructors out there.

I'll use this basic comparison with a mature instruction industry in golf...
If you presented a collection of what I'd consider as BASIC concepts in motor-control, motor-learning, and biomechanics, to a 100 golf coaches, most would say 'of course' and acknowledge them as true. From what I've seen and the discussions I've participated in with some instructors, the majority of pool instructors just aren't at that level. The top guys are great and I will tip my hat to them as they know a whole lot and also know enough about not overloading students by actually divulging the minutia to them but say only enough to get the student to do and experience first-hand the concepts being applied. On the other end of the spectrum, where unfortunately the majority find themselves, many (most?) instructors are quite unaware.

Without actually diving into what these concepts are, here is what this knowledge gap ends up looking like in the respective industries.
In golf, it is widely understood there are many different types of swings, with different sources of power, and different alignments, grips, and overall mechanics that work together to produce the swings. Most golfers are aware of this and they seek out coaches that teach a particular style that resonates with them. Pretty much every golf instructor understands that there is a certain 'look' to a standard neutral, strong, or weak grip AND that this will vary from person to person so what may look like a classically presented 'strong' grip is actually 'neutral' for a solid chunk of the population. Those that don't know this and try to play with a neutral look will just spray everything right with a slice as the clubface will consistently come into the ball open instead of square based on their anatomy and where their arms and by extenstion club want to return to.

By contrast, I'd say most, but at the very least a large portion of the pool instructor community still only understand the fundamentals based on visuals. Angles. This does not address the underlying functional purpose of those fundamentals in developing the correct types of relationships between body segments. Because they don't understand the underlying WHY of the fundamentals, they are not able to recognize when that same function is achieved in nonconventional methods. They just dismiss those as 'stroke flaws' because the look doesn't fit their neat (and quite limited) model of the stroke.

These guys can still help a lot of players, particularly those whose natural hangs and body alignments fall in the average range where the prescribed angles for alignment achieve the purpose of locking in a plane of movement. But those that naturally find themselves at the extremes of the normal range for the way their bodies naturally align and the way they are accustomed to using their arms are left with good looking fundamentals that just don't feel right often and experience sometimes 'on' sometimes 'way off' days as a result of their setup not matching their natural swing plane relative to their body (this is another thing that is common knowledge in golf regarding what plane the club swings on relative to the body and no coach would switch a student from one to another without good reason to believe their more natural plane is in fact a higher or lower plane than the one they've been taught to be on).

I think this is what Matt was getting at regarding the guys that come to his clinics who have very good grips and fundamentals (from a visual perspective), but just need very minor tweaks in order to get the function that look will promote in most people most of the time. A tiny tweak in finding how a position should feel will tap that player into what they are obv doing when they are 'on' and make them aware of what is missing when 'off'. Visually, the two setups may be so close they could be virtually indistinguishable (tho admittedly for the guys naturally closer to the extremes of the normal range for people can end up in very different angle stances compared to one another--def not a one size fits all matter).

By approaching each student as an individual with their own set of 'specs' if you will, setting up the right conditions within the body and the right feels for the player to recognize, a good instructor can get a player to have true fundamentals in their stroke suited to them, their body, and the way they prefer to move and produce force (check Matt's comment on biceps-triceps isn't for everyone).

Frankly, most pool instructors just aren't there yet and really it isn't a surprise because this stuff is just not in the pool literature I've seen and certainly not anything being parroted by well-meaning SL7s teaching their lower ranked players.

Most instruction is cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all, and as a result is just bad for a lot of people. Many, even high quality instructors limit themselves to one or two techniques they are very familiar with where they know all the parts fit together very well to produce a very functional stroke. But it's one stroke, with one look. And it will either 'fit' with a student's body and natural mechanics, or it won't.

When we get to the point where concepts that are accepted as common knowledge in various other sports, not just golf which is the gold standard imo, then we can entertain thoughts of pool instruction being out of it's adolescence. As things are now, there is one concept in particular that can be found in golf books from the 1800s....not a typo... which is perfectly in line with modern understanding of vertebrate movement, which most pool instructors aren't even aware exists. Seriously. Till we close that gap with other sports, considering pool instruction in its adolescence may be an over-estimation of how developed it actually is.
 
Last edited:
Nice run Lou!
That rack starting at 26min was a toughie. Did well to get out from that mess.

You are a prime example of a guy that isn't going to level up all that much in a day lol. That said, a good instructor could help you with some feels type things and at least have your technique feel more locked down and solid so there isn't quite as much for you to do to keep shots on line. Granted this is subconsciously done so it's not like you're really 'doing' it, more like it is happening based on your intention for the shot. Still, the less of that the better overall for consistency, but obv we nit picking here since you are already a guy running upwards of 100 balls.

There's a break shot at 33min mark that caught my eye and got me on this subconscious adjustment train of thought. At first I just saw the break and thought left english might have been a better choice. So I rewound and saw you did seem to choose left english but in your delivery you came across and hit with right. I mean, you could very well just be a BHE guy and that's what was going on the whole time and you played it that way, but not knowing that to be the case for sure 2 other options sprung to mind for me as an explanation for what happened...
1. You simply stretched yourself into a position that wasn't quite aligned right which caused you to cue crooked (honestly unlikely given the shot success). 2. You may have misaimed the ball (whether due to misperception from the stretched stance or inadequate adjustment for the left english) and subconsciously corrected to where you make it. The big move was there to save you from a miss and it so happened to put right on the ball as well. (more likely than 1 imo, but with a gun to my head, you're just a BHE guy).

Overall, I like your form and the way you deliver the cue. Sure, there are a few things that can be 'cleaned up' for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else (tho the more solid 'on rails' feel does instill more confidence and help most players out). But as a famous golf coach once said, "watch what the ball does and that will tell you if anything needs to change". Jim Furyk would have a swing overhaul lined up by every instructor that just saw him swinging a club. But if they watch him hit balls and watch what the balls do, they wouldn't dare change a damn thing. When a guy is running over 100 balls, hitting different types of stroke shots, and having that level of success, I'd be wary to make any suggestions for changes at all. Feels and sensation things aside ofc, bc they don't really change how things work, just have the player tap into what I'm sure they already feel/experience some of the time on specific types of shots and just try to expand that to other speeds and stroke types they use.

You are def deep into diminishing returns of development land. Minor tweaks only. Sorry, no one day level up for you...from anyone.

Gracias, WS.

So sure at 69, with 50+ years of playing there ain’t going to be any overhauling. And that’s one of the bones I have to pick with an instructor who puts out a blanket, “Gonna make you way better in an hour” kind of claim.

Tells me a lot.

Lou Figueroa
 
I strongly disagree here. As Matt alluded to, there is a whole lot of bad instructors out there.

I'll use this basic comparison with a mature instruction industry in golf...
If you take a collection of what I'd consider as BASIC concepts in motor-control, motor-learning, and biomechanics, to a 100 golf coaches, most would say 'of course' when presented with them. From what I've seen and the discussions I've participated in with some instructors, the majority of pool instructors just aren't at that level. The top guys are great and I will tip my hat to them as they know a whole lot and also know enough about not overloading students by actually divulging the minutia to them but say only enough to get the student to do and experience first-hand the concepts being applied. On the other end of the spectrum, where unfortunately the majority find themselves, many (most?) instructors are quite unaware.

Without actually diving into what these concepts are, here is what this knowledge gap ends up looking like in the respective industries.
In golf, it is widely understood there are many different types of swings, with different sources of power, and different alignments, grips, and overall mechanics that work together to produce the swings. Most golfers are aware of this and they seek out coaches that teach a particular style that resonates with them. Pretty much every golf instructor understands that there is a certain 'look' to a standard neutral, strong, or weak grip AND that this will vary from person to person so what may look like a classically presented 'strong' grip is actually 'neutral' for a solid chunk of the population. Those that don't know this and try to play with a neutral look will just spray everything right with a slice as the clubface will consistently come into the ball open instead of square based on their anatomy and where their arms and by extenstion club want to return to.
By contrast, I'd say most, but at the very least a large portion of the instructor community still only understand the fundamentals based on visuals. Angles. This does not address the underlying functional purpose of those fundamentals in developing the correct types of relationships between body segments. Because they don't understand the underlying WHY of the fundamentals, they are not able to recognize when that same function is achieved in nonconventional methods. They just dismiss those as 'stroke flaws' because the look doesn't fit their neat (and quite limited) model of the stroke. These guys can still help a lot of players, particularly those whose natural hangs and body alignments fall in the average range where the prescribed angles for alignment achieve the purpose of locking in a plane of movement. But those that naturally find themselves at the extremes of the normal range for the way their bodies naturally align and the way they are accustomed to using their arms are left with good looking fundamentals that just don't feel right often and experience sometimes 'on' sometimes 'way off' days as a result of their setup not matching their natural swing plane relative to their body (this is another thing that is common knowledge in golf regarding what plane the club swings on relative to the body and no coach would switch a student from one to another without good reason to believe their more natural plane is in fact a higher or lower plane than the one they've been taught to be on).

I think this is what Matt was getting at regarding the guys that come to his clinics who have very good grips and fundamentals (from a visual perspective), but just need very minor tweaks in order to get the function that look will promote in most people most of the time. A tiny tweak in finding how a position should feel will tap that player into what they are obv doing when they are 'on' and make them aware of what is missing when 'off'. Visually, the two setups may be so close they could be virtually indistinguishable (tho admittedly for the guys naturally closer to the extremes of the normal range for people can end up in very different angle stances compared to one another--def not a one size fits all matter). By approaching each student as an individual with their own set of 'specs' if you will, setting up the right conditions within the body and the right feels for the player to recognize, a good instructor can get a player to have true fundamentals in their stroke suited to them, their body, and the way they prefer to move and produce force (check Matt's comment on biceps-triceps isn't for everyone).

Frankly, most pool instructors just aren't there yet and really it isn't a surprise because this stuff is just not in the pool literature I've seen and certainly not anything being parroted by well-meaning SL7s teaching their lower ranked players.

Most instruction is cookie-cutter, one-size-fits-all, and as a result is just bad. Many, even high quality instructors limit themselves to one or two techniques they are very familiar with where they know all the parts fit together very well to produce a very functional stroke. But it's one stroke. And it will either 'fit' with a student's body and natural mechanics, or it won't.

When we get to the point where concepts that are accepted as common knowledge in various other sports, not just golf which is the gold standard imo, then we can entertain thoughts of pool instruction being out of it's adolescence. As things are now, there is one concept in particular that can be found in golf books from the 1800s....not a typo... which is perfectly in line with modern understanding of vertebrate movement, which most pool instructors aren't even aware exists. Seriously. Till we close that gap with other sports, considering pool instruction in its adolescence may be an over-estimation of how developed it actually is.
I don't remember where I even posted that or its context, and I may have in fact been thinking one thing and said another, but there isn't one thing you said above that I would disagree with. Well thought out and stated.
 
by doing different games, also practice-games, safety-games etcone learns to find the best shot, the best solution for the specific task
this will transition into a wider range of choices available in a 'normal' game
onlookers would say its imagination, the player will say its recognition
Yes I agree by playing games that learn new skills is probably the best way to learn.

Look at how a child learns. They play games and use their imagination. What is more fun than that?

One thing I try to do when learning is to have a child's mind like approach when at the table.

Every master was once a beginner.
 
Lou was the one who threw out a bet and it's here in black and white. I applaud him for it. I used it as a comparison to throwing a bet out to you and then you whined about it

What other places? It's the only pool forum out there (that I know of) with the variety of subjects and pro tournament info regarding pool. There is no competition with this format.

And the point is? You know everything there is to know and are as good as you'll ever be? How about those who are newbies to the forum? Might THEY be interested in the live lessons offered by the instructors posting in this thread? Can't they make up their own minds based on their perceived needs? Do you think I'm some kind of newbie here that doesn't know the ropes, members backgrounds, their posting styles, their likes and dislikes, their skill and knowledge levels?
I joined here 3 years before you did and have 3 times the posts on this forum over 17 years.

Btw, you posted this: "Pool has and will continue to be about #4 or #5 in my life". With the amount of time you keep spending on posts back to me and on this forum, that doesn't seem to be close to the truth.

I'll say it for you...ADIOS! Over and OUT!

Just to clarify: what I said was that if he was in St Louis he could get played.

When guys pass through here they can, generally speaking, get played for whatever they want, as casual pool room bets go.

Lou Figueroa
 
Last edited:
Gracias, WS.

So sure at 69, with 50+ years of playing there ain’t going to be any overhauling. And that’s one of the bones I have to pick with an instructor who puts out a blanket, “Gonna make you way better in an hour” kind of claim.

Tells me a lot.

Lou Figueroa
Out of curiosity, are you just a BHE guy and were playing with intended right english on that break shot at 33min all along? I assume that is the case but just interested in a little more context for what I saw.
 
.... I joined here 3 years before you did and have 3 times the posts on this forum over 17 years.

Btw, you posted this: "Pool has and will continue to be about #4 or #5 in my life". With the amount of time you keep spending on posts back to me and on this forum, that doesn't seem to be close to the truth.

I'll say it for you...ADIOS! Over and OUT!
I found this quite humorous. First you point out how you have thousands of posts more than me on here, then you try to say my 8 posts today point out I'm really a secret pool junkie!

Hilarious. By comparison, you must be eating and sleeping next to Fedor.
 
Last edited:
I will share my experience with an instructor. I was fortunate enough to have a 6 hour lesson with Scott Lee about 4 years ago. I had seen much of the free stuff online, all of tor Lowry's stuff, had paid for a membership for Max Eberle's online Pro Billiard Academy and watched every one of his posted instructional videos. Still, I was stuck bouncing between an SL 4 and 5 in 8 ball...

Now, I am a data guy...I like to see actual numbers and where I can improve. I run through Dr. Dave's curriculum and do ok, but one of my own sets of data is setting up a straight in corner to corner shot and shooting it 30 times (2 racks) and doing the same with a spot shot. This just helps me identify anything wonky with my stroke and/or gives me confidence that I am shooting straight and putting the cue ball where I am aiming.

During our first conversation, I explained all this to Scott and told him that over the past 6 months my average on the long straight in shot was 25/30. He felt like he could help me and recommended a 4 hour lesson. He came to my house with his video cameras and tv and got everything set up. He filmed me shooting a variety of shots for a while, then showed me in slo mo my elbow drop and how I was not finishing every shot at the same anchor point.

Then he went over the SPF sequence, measured my preferred bridge length, and gave me a specific anchor point to finish my stroke on (grip hand to right nipple).

Then he went over his book of mother drills with me and told me to practice and rewatch the dvd of our lesson periodically. Unfortunately, he had forgot to plug in the audio cable, so there was no sound. He agreed to come back in a few months for a free follow up since there was no sound. Tragically we couldn't get our schedules lined up and he passed away before we could get back together.

Scott was a super nice guy, very professional, and all around very likeable. I was diligent with the mother drills, meticulously recording my results and making notes. The SPF became 2nd. nature.

The end result?

My average on the long straight in shot went up to 27/30. I won my league MVP for Sl5 a few times, and now bounce between a SL 5 and SL6. I truly feel that I would have benefitted more from a different type of lesson. My stance, grip, and stroke were all pretty good according to Scott when he did the initial video analysis. Still, the entire 5+ hours was focused on stroke. I was hoping for more guidance on things like shot selection, pattern play, how/when to navigate clusters, etc. It just seemed like he would have taught the same lesson to a SL2 that barely knew how to hold a cue...

I think that’s why it’s important for a student to get what *they* want out of a lesson rather than passively accepting the cookie cutter lesson some instructors dole out.

Also, I do believe that if you want to improve your 14.1 runs the first place to start is with shot selection and patterns.

Lou Figueroa
not an instructor
 
Out of curiosity, are you just a BHE guy and were playing with intended right english on that break shot at 33min all along? I assume that is the case but just interested in a little more context for what I saw.

I think I was just stretched out on that shot and swiped it.

Lou Figueroa
 
I will share my experience with an instructor. I was fortunate enough to have a 6 hour lesson with Scott Lee about 4 years ago. I had seen much of the free stuff online, all of tor Lowry's stuff, had paid for a membership for Max Eberle's online Pro Billiard Academy and watched every one of his posted instructional videos. Still, I was stuck bouncing between an SL 4 and 5 in 8 ball...

Now, I am a data guy...I like to see actual numbers and where I can improve. I run through Dr. Dave's curriculum and do ok, but one of my own sets of data is setting up a straight in corner to corner shot and shooting it 30 times (2 racks) and doing the same with a spot shot. This just helps me identify anything wonky with my stroke and/or gives me confidence that I am shooting straight and putting the cue ball where I am aiming.

During our first conversation, I explained all this to Scott and told him that over the past 6 months my average on the long straight in shot was 25/30. He felt like he could help me and recommended a 4 hour lesson. He came to my house with his video cameras and tv and got everything set up. He filmed me shooting a variety of shots for a while, then showed me in slo mo my elbow drop and how I was not finishing every shot at the same anchor point.

Then he went over the SPF sequence, measured my preferred bridge length, and gave me a specific anchor point to finish my stroke on (grip hand to right nipple).

Then he went over his book of mother drills with me and told me to practice and rewatch the dvd of our lesson periodically. Unfortunately, he had forgot to plug in the audio cable, so there was no sound. He agreed to come back in a few months for a free follow up since there was no sound. Tragically we couldn't get our schedules lined up and he passed away before we could get back together.

Scott was a super nice guy, very professional, and all around very likeable. I was diligent with the mother drills, meticulously recording my results and making notes. The SPF became 2nd. nature.

The end result?

My average on the long straight in shot went up to 27/30. I won my league MVP for Sl5 a few times, and now bounce between a SL 5 and SL6. I truly feel that I would have benefitted more from a different type of lesson. My stance, grip, and stroke were all pretty good according to Scott when he did the initial video analysis. Still, the entire 5+ hours was focused on stroke. I was hoping for more guidance on things like shot selection, pattern play, how/when to navigate clusters, etc. It just seemed like he would have taught the same lesson to a SL2 that barely knew how to hold a cue...
Thanks for sharing. Never met Scott, but by all accounts he was one of the truly good ones.
Regarding that tip you shared on a consistent 'anchor' for your stroke. I wonder how many guys even in this forum see this as a new concept. There are many anchors that can be built into one's stance and the final stroke anchor is among the very most important.
I've stressed this with some students and even tho they are SL6s and SL7s who have taken lessons before, they say things like "oh, I've never heard of that...makes sense."

And that is really my gripe with the weaker instructors out there. What a good instructor will stress and key in on as a core fundamental to a stroking technique, can be completely omitted by the cookie cutter club. Or they might promote only one specific anchor/anchoring technique that fits their stroke model and present others (which are obv very valid too and may actually fit the individual better) as flawed or inferior.
 
... imagine an image you'll never unsee.
Here's a more appropriate image.
1684431031547.png
 
Back
Top