What does Team USA’s Mosconi Cup future look like?

[pool players stats]

I'm going to post 'pre condolences' to ANY announcer that would have to pronounce names of an all-Polish squad. Seriously, these cats can REALLY play folks. Really like watching Zielinski. Won't need a shot clock for this kid. TWENTY-NINE minute final:

He’s defensive game was his weakness, but he’s constantly improving. Pool is huge in Poland, they play it in school

 

[Scott Lee]

then they are not pro (pro = play pool full time)
I mean from that players making money from pool in US, probably 80% of them wouldnt make it in Europe

No, that just means that again, you don't know what you're talking about. You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of American pro players making more than $20K a year...before expenses. If you think that's some kind of income, well I can't help you there!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

 

[pool players stats]

No, that just means that again, you don't know what you're talking about. You would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of American pro players making more than $20K a year...before expenses. If you think that's some kind of income, well I can't help you there!

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

I know what I’m talking about, but you dont understand me. For example, you get American player making 10k a year playing pool, there are like 50 better players in Europe that make 0$ a year playing pool. I am not talking about is it 10k enough for living, but it's income

 

[Supr Charged]

I really hope the US team can use this year's MC as fuel to work even harder for next year. This year was too one-sided for it to be exciting. The captain (Marcus Chamat) of Team Europe in the 2 previous years made some huge mistakes in his picks. He left out both Filler and Ouschan (not at the same time though). That mistake won't be repeated by the current captain.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

We need to recruit some cornhole sharpshooters.

 

[13ball]

Very curious as to what Team USA’s looks like in future Mosconi Cups? Team Europe could put out this same team for the next five years and dominate any American team! Their oldest member is Shaw and he still plays super strong! Team USA’s best player is SVB, but not in the Mosconi Cup. I have to give that edge to Skyler. So in the future who plays on Team USA that could even challenge Team Europe?

They lost one on an away “court” in a weird year. No need to panic. The issue is the fifth man. Robinson is in for the future. Jones is the right coach. Gray does not fit in at all

 

[Supr Charged]

They also have strong billiard associations in each country as well as a well funded(for pool anyway) pro tour. The US has NOTHING that remotely compares to what Europe has been doing the last 20yrs. The US used to be the gold standard when it came to pool but now we're more like the re-cycled metal standard.

When a European (or any) player participates in a Euro tour, he/she has to reach the semi-final to break even on expenses. The winner receives about $3,500 and has spent about $1,500 for travel, hotel, and participation...there is not much profit there.

There is absolutely no way a European (or any) player can make a living from playing this tour. Also, it's by far the toughest tour on the planet. At any given time you will have 20-30 world-class players in the 128 player field.

Most of the European players have a job on the side. In very few countries (maybe just The Netherlands), you will get $20,000 per year from the government IF and WHEN you prove that you are a world-class player. Niels Feijen only got his scholarship 2 years ago, and he's been a top player for 2 decades (maybe he had it before, but lost it during his injury, not sure).

Sponsorship money for the top players averages around $10-15,000 a year. Yes, there are 2-3 exceptions, but if we leave them out of it...that's the average.

Needless to say, making a living as a pool pro in Europe is almost impossible. And they are more or less living from hand to mouth. They have to travel A LOT, be away from their family, sell chalks, gloves, cues, and coaching lessons to have a little extra. And there is almost no way they are able to save up a little. If they have a normal year, they will rake in $20-30,000 in prize money. A bad year less...and a good year maybe $40-50,000

Until we fans start realizing that it's a circle we will never get pool back in the main stream media. For this to happen we need pros that are able to make a decent living from pool. We need 10-15 in Europe and 30-40 in the US. This way they can be good ambassadors focusing 100% on being a pro (in the words proper meaning). And for this to happen, we fans gotta pay up for live streams, buy equipment from manufacturers (they are after all sponsoring the players and events), buy food and drinks at the local pool hall etc etc etc.

 

[jokrswylde]

When a European (or any) player participates in a Euro tour, he/she has to reach the semi-final to break even on expenses. The winner receives about $3,500 and has spent about $1,500 for travel, hotel, and participation...there is not much profit there.

There is absolutely no way a European (or any) player can make a living from playing this tour. Also, it's by far the toughest tour on the planet. At any given time you will have 20-30 world-class players in the 128 player field.

Most of the European players have a job on the side. In very few countries (maybe just The Netherlands), you will get $20,000 per year from the government IF and WHEN you prove that you are a world-class player. Niels Feijen only got his scholarship 2 years ago, and he's been a top player for 2 decades (maybe he had it before, but lost it during his injury, not sure).

Sponsorship money for the top players averages around $10-15,000 a year. Yes, there are 2-3 exceptions, but if we leave them out of it...that's the average.

Needless to say, making a living as a pool pro in Europe is almost impossible. And they are more or less living from hand to mouth. They have to travel A LOT, be away from their family, sell chalks, gloves, cues, and coaching lessons to have a little extra. And there is almost no way they are able to save up a little. If they have a normal year, they will rake in $20-30,000 in prize money. A bad year less...and a good year maybe $40-50,000

Until we fans start realizing that it's a circle we will never get pool back in the main stream media. For this to happen we need pros that are able to make a decent living from pool. We need 10-15 in Europe and 30-40 in the US. This way they can be good ambassadors focusing 100% on being a pro (in the words proper meaning). And for this to happen, we fans gotta pay up for live streams, buy equipment from manufacturers (they are after all sponsoring the players and events), buy food and drinks at the local pool hall etc etc etc.

Wow. Thanks for the info. I had been under the impression, evidently incorrect, that the Europeans were all getting government checks and doing well thanks to their well funded professional tour. The way you make it sound, the pros in europe are not in too much better shape than the pros here...

 

[garczar]

As i stated earlier, without junior player programs/involvement all else means nada. If we can't get the 10-15yr olds interested pool will fade further into the background than it already is.

 

[Supr Charged]

Wow. Thanks for the info. I had been under the impression, evidently incorrect, that the Europeans were all getting government checks and doing well thanks to their well funded professional tour. The way you make it sound, the pros in europe are not in too much better shape than the pros here...

Yea, there is no way to make a living from pool in Europe. A handful makes $40-60,000 a year. Deduct expenses for traveling etc...not much left.

90% of them have a job on the side. Naturally eating into their practice time, but they gotta put food on the table.

(Oh, and gambling...not a big thing in Europe. So no extra cheese to be made from that).

 

[ChrisinNC]

They lost one on an away “court” in a weird year. No need to panic. The issue is the fifth man. Robinson is in for the future. Jones is the right coach. Gray does not fit in at all

What is your issue with Joey Gray that you think he should be let go after one year? He is doing a lot for the development of junior pool players right now and is extremely knowledgeable. JJ would not have picked him otherwise.

 

[plague]

Let's not overreact. I think Europe has the superior team- Shaw, Filler, Ouschan, and Gorst are proven world class players. Kaci isn't too far behind either.

However, Team USA did win 2 years in a row with a similar roster to what they have now. Perhaps a tweak here and there with the roster would help. For example, even though he is past his prime, Johnny Archer can still play very well and has performed great in past MC. It would be good to have another veteran presence on the roster besides SVB. Archer seems to be well respected by the younger generation of players too.

I know everybody is criticizing Deuel, but he can still play and hasn't played awful despite what some people are saying- sure, he has missed some shots or position, but his opponents have placed quite well or gotten better rolls. I think he is still a viable option in the future or perhaps allow other vets that have been given an opportunity like Roberts.

needs to hit back of the pocket more

 

[plague]

The US can BARELY field a team. How many players in the US, other than those on this team, play good enough to compete with top Euro players? Guarantee you its less than 20. Top of my head: Bergmann, Shane McMinn, Chip Compton, Dechaine, Donnie Mills, Steyer. I'm already out of names. Point is there are VERY few US players that play big-table on the same level as Euro players. And there are few-to-ZERO in the pipeline as the US has no development program other than local events(mostly bar box) and the ever magical 'GAMBLING".

Dee Adkins one that is building with group of juniors

 

[kollegedave]

Looking forward five years, I suspect SVB is gone. Justin Bergman, I suspect, will be the best player on Team USA. The only reason that Bergman, America's most complete player, would have won some of the big stuff if he broke the balls better, but at the Mosconi, with the one on the spot and alternate break, the break holds him back far less. At the Mosconi, everyone gets to play, and Bergman's well-rounded game, that includes exceptional defense and kicking, has often fared well there.

Skyler and Billy are capable players, and they are still young, but I feel they still need a little more development if Team USA is to be a formidable squad capable of beating Team Europe more than once every few years. I agree with Jay that to take this step, these two players may need to start playing the top WPA sanctioned international events. Unless I miss my guess, no American has won a major WPA sanctioned event (World 9-ball, China Open and All-Japan Championships) overseas since Earl won in Cardiff in 2002. It's a big advantage to compete with the world's most elite players on a very regular basis, and neither Billy nor Skyler gets enough opportunities. Yes, they will need some sponsorship.

The remainder of the American team will depend on the continuing emergence of some of America's youngest players. Chris Robinson has been showing a lot of form for a 22 year old at this Mosconi, and Tyler Styer is already somewhat accomplished at 24, but I really wonder whether either will ever be counted among the game's most elite. Time will tell.

I'm not inclined to agree with Jay here that America's core is strong enough to compete successfully long-term at the Mosconi, so I feel American fortunes will be dependent on the emergence of some young players as stars of the game. It's hard to be really optimistic, though, as American performance in the Junior World Championships has been pretty forgettable in recent years. What American players on the horizon are there to get excited about? In Europe, Kaci, Gorst and Filler all earned a spot on Team Europe by the age of 20, and there are not that many nine ball players in Europe. Where are America's rising stars? Has America had any 20 year old (or younger) players worth getting excited about since Billy and Skyler?

I guess I'm just a little worried about the state of American pool. Europe and Asia are mass producing new stars of the game, but America is not. Surely, the solution to changing this must lie in training, with the greatest burden falling on the pool instruction profession, but as Jay correctly points out, it also lies in giving the top American players an opportunity to compete against the truly elite as often as the top Europeans do, thereby giving them a chance to fully develop their skills and competitive pedigrees.

In short, I see Team USA as continuing to be the clear underdog at the Mosconi Cup for years to come unless it turns the corner in developing and supporting its young talent.. Boy, I hope I'm wrong!

Stu, I basically agree with everything you said here. I think pool in the United States has a lot of barriers for young people: 1) There is no organization that supports a team that represents the United States--I think the Netherlands does something like that and maybe other countries as well. 2) I did not spend a long time overseas, however, it does seem like train travel that is common between countries in Europe might make attending Euro Tour events easier and cheaper than what American players face here. Here, especially in the Midwest, a player has to drive himself for hours, pay for a dirty motel room, sit through a smoky Calcutta that will run late, buy himself for half, and play other great players...on a bar table. Rinse and repeat. For most players who are actually trying to make a living playing pool in the United States, playing many events on bar tables, staying up super late (read not setting aside significant practice time on 9 foot tables), and trying to scratch out a living--I think--injures the ability of our players to compete internationally. I don't see an end to this.

 

[Brookeland Bill]

Stu, I basically agree with everything you said here. I think pool in the United States has a lot of barriers for young people: 1) There is no organization that supports a team that represents the United States--I think the Netherlands does something like that and maybe other countries as well. 2) I did not spend a long time overseas, however, it does seem like train travel that is common between countries in Europe might make attending Euro Tour events easier and cheaper than what American players face here. Here, especially in the Midwest, a player has to drive himself for hours, pay for a dirty motel room, sit through a smoky Calcutta that will run late, buy himself for half, and play other great players...on a bar table. Rinse and repeat. For most players who are actually trying to make a living playing pool in the United States, playing many events on bar tables, staying up super late (read not setting aside significant practice time on 9 foot tables), and trying to scratch out a living--I think--injures the ability of our players to compete internationally. I don't see an end to this.

There is no dress code. Every other sport has a uniform or dress code. When I see the player that calls himself “Superman” wearing jeans with holes and a Superman shirt I want to scream. Hats on backwards and baggy shorts with cheap t-shirts do more to tarnish the image of pool which suffers to begin with.

 

[westcoast]

The US can BARELY field a team. How many players in the US, other than those on this team, play good enough to compete with top Euro players? Guarantee you its less than 20. Top of my head: Bergmann, Shane McMinn, Chip Compton, Dechaine, Donnie Mills, Steyer. I'm already out of names. Point is there are VERY few US players that play big-table on the same level as Euro players. And there are few-to-ZERO in the pipeline as the US has no development program other than local events(mostly bar box) and the ever magical 'GAMBLING".

You left out some veteran players that can still shoot quite well if given time to get up to speed like Rodney Morris, Dennis Hatch, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, and John Schmidt. Not saying they'd win the cup or anything, but those guys are still capable of playing great pool.

 

[jalapus logan]

Yea, there is no way to make a living from pool in Europe. A handful makes $40-60,000 a year. Deduct expenses for traveling etc...not much left.

90% of them have a job on the side. Naturally eating into their practice time, but they gotta put food on the table.

(Oh, and gambling...not a big thing in Europe. So no extra cheese to be made from that).

Can we then imply that Euro players therefore play because they actually like the game???? If so, that sounds just like yours truly, lol.

 

[garczar]

You left out some veteran players that can still shoot quite well if given time to get up to speed like Rodney Morris, Dennis Hatch, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, and John Schmidt. Not saying they'd win the cup or anything, but those guys are still capable of playing great pool.

They can't compete with the current Euro stars. Just a simple fact.

 

[sjm]

You left out some veteran players that can still shoot quite well if given time to get up to speed like Rodney Morris, Dennis Hatch, Earl Strickland, Johnny Archer, and John Schmidt. Not saying they'd win the cup or anything, but those guys are still capable of playing great pool.

These very accomplished veteran players are correctly omitted form the discussion. When was the last time that any of them had a strong showing in any event having a large, internationally diverse field? Earl' second place finish at Turning Stone a couple of years back, maybe, but that's a Joss Tour event and only a few international players typically participate. For the others, I can't think of any top showings in significant events in years.

And, of course, if we ever go old again at the Mosconi, we'll fall even further behind Europe. Do you realize that four of these five (FYI, not John Schmidt) were on the 2013 Team USA that got whitewashed 11-2 by Team Europe.

The only thing that went right at the 2020 Mosconi Cup for Team USA was the fine play of Mosconi Cup rookie Chris Robinson. Tyler probably should have been there with him. Build for the future!

 

[sjm]

There is no dress code. Every other sport has a uniform or dress code. When I see the player that calls himself “Superman” wearing jeans with holes and a Superman shirt I want to scream. Hats on backwards and baggy shorts with cheap t-shirts do more to tarnish the image of pool which suffers to begin with.

Strongly agree. Though I am as big a fan of the Derby City Classic as you'll find anywhere, every year the thought that occurs to me is "I hope no potential sponsors of pool are here, for if they see the way these players present themselves, they'll never invest a penny in our sport." Backward caps, Hustlin' T-shirts, and sometimes even worse, reinforce the negative image of the serious pool player, and yet, the sad reality is that so many serious pool players wish to present themselves in this manner.

I'll take note of the Joss Tour as a notable exception. Mike Zuglan takes dress code very seriously and the way players present themselves at Joss events is more like what we need all the time to project the right image for pool.