What I think would finally grow pool. (BCAPL/Pro/8-ball connection)

[Celtic]

99,653 of them are the same. I'm president of our local BCA league and I can tell you unequivocally that if I asked these folks for 2 bucks a week for the pros in order to develop the sport I would get reactions from being laughed at to stabbed.

They are already paying league fees that go towards a variety of costs and prize funds.

The league I play right now, BCAPL sanctioned, runs every 2 weeks, we play 2 matches every 2 weeks, and the league fees are $40 every 2 weeks. In my above system it would cost me $44 every 2 weeks instead of $40, that is really not going to faze me, I cannot buy a beer at the pool hall I play that league out of for the extra $4 that having an actual professional pool tour and playing in the league system that tour is associated would cost me. And the $40 I pay already? I know some of it goes into the prize fund of the league, I know some gets shipped off to the BCAPL for the Nationals, I know some is taken for administration, ect... the extra $2 a match is simply another chunk of money that I am paying, but I would actually like to pay this one due to where it would be going and what it could do for the game that I want to see improve at the professional level.

I am pretty sure if the fees went up a whopping $2 per a match in Calgary most players would shrug and not really be that concerned and quite afew would be quite excited at the prospects of what that money was going to and be excited to be involved in the future ranked competition that leads to an actual professional ranking and exclusive tour. Heck, a $2 increase can take place in league at any time and when it does usually the most response you get on "why" the fees went up is "because costs went up", and you shrug and you pay the $2 extra and keep playing.

 

[Celtic]

League play has never been the answer to the pro game, never will be. They're just two different paths to two different goals.

ATM they completely are, I have talked to pro level players who have went so far as to say the league system had a big part in the destruction of true professional pool, they have said it was a large part of the reason that pool halls are going under, that entry fee tournaments are becomming less common, because leagues pulled pool players out of the pool halls, off the 9-foot tables, out of the tournaments and put them into the pubs playing league pool instead. There is ALOT of sense in that thought.

But leagues are here, and they are here to stay. We have to find a way for the leagues and pro pool to work together, to get some synergy and cooperation to the mutual benefit of both. The league systems have alot of fans of the game and alot of up and coming players (SVB was a league player), the pro game needs fans and it needs new blood and up and coming players. This is two things that REALLY need to come more together because we are NEVER getting back to the pool hall scene that existed in the 70's and before, it is sadly gone forever and rest assured it is not coming back in todays world.

 

[Celtic]

I do NOT want to pay any more money to support ANYBODY elses poolplaying, and I can guarantee you I am far from alone in this thinking.

Maniac

This is not the way it works though, because by playing in the BCAPL it is your prize pool as much as anyone elses. You are playing in the actual league that leads to the pros. If you find success in league then you will be one of those guys in the pros that is playing in those no entry fee tournaments with guarenteed prize payouts even if you go 2 and out.

Everyone in the system is in the same place, the pros on the tour can lose their playing cards and drop back into the grand masters, if they blow it there their will drop even lower. As a league member you can win matched and move up into the grand masters and if you succeed there then you are taking a place on that tour. The professional ranking is simply the highest ranking of the entire BCAPL system and you have the same opportunity to reach it as anyone else by being a BCAPL member.

 

[PETROBOY]

The proplem is that there is BCA, APA, VNEA, ACS and other league systems out there. Pool needs one governing body to set the rules and be the ones who lead the sport into the future.

 

[Rubyron]

99,653 of them are the same. I'm president of our local BCA league and I can tell you unequivocally that if I asked these folks for 2 bucks a week for the pros in order to develop the sport I would get reactions from being laughed at to stabbed.

So that leaves 347 souls willing to pony up for the plan. Good luck with your $694 a week.

I played BCA pool league for years and never knew where the weekly fees went (or cared for that matter). In fact, I was surprised when I found out BCAPL didn't collect any of it. All I knew is that you got a little back at the end of the session. I don't mind if the league operator keeps a little for services rendered and wouldn't mind if the BCAPL did either. I think some people would b*tch but the overwhelming majority would not.

 

[h4xs4w]

Possibly....

League play has never been the answer to the pro game, never will be. They're just two different paths to two different goals.

This is true, in the current scenario. But, with the potential gains being discussed, it changes both animals. I believe if there were a more tangible reward involved, the goals will shift. It no longer becomes just a social past time, but a chance to earn a decent payout, if not make a living. Beat some of the best players in the US for almost half a million? A long shot most wouldn't try for, understandably. But finish, lets say 40th , and potentially win 5 to 10k? Sounds a little more realistic and achievable.

Maybe I'm just an idealist and want the world to value pool as much as I feel it deserves. But it does sound like a logical path towards implementing a long lasting, self-sustaining program for developing and maintaining a continued interest in the success and popularity of the sport.

 

[Celtic]

I don't think it would work if it was a weekly thing. I think as part of an annual membership fee it could be sneaked in. They would just have to explain briefly why this would be a benefit to their members. I think the numbers that Celtic came up with are too high though. I would think you could get 20 bucks a year out of most people vs. 50. That would equal 2 million and I think that would be enough to get the ball rolling.

The numbers can certainly be worked with, I basically pulled those numbers out of a hat along with the 100,000 BCAPL member number which I am going to guess was a lowball estimate.

I do agree completely that people would not be double or triple charged for playing on more then 1 night, there would need to be a way to make it such that people all get charged the same amount over the course of the year, whether that be in a one time charge to go along with the sanction fees, maybe charging extra for the singles entry in Vegas.

Thinking about it on the fly here, but perhaps if/when you pay that extra $2 a week you are paying entry into the "singles" protion of the league system and perhaps it should lead to a extra "singles" event in the year end league tournament to go along with the teams competition for Vegas trips. You are automatically entered into the singles event for your league, there is a playoff, and you can win the entry fee into the Vegas tournament just like the team play wins your way into the team event.

Here in Calgary we win our trips to Vegas via the teams playoffs, it would be pretty sweet to be able to win entry into the single event through a league singles playoff.

 

[Celtic]

The proplem is that there is BCA, APA, VNEA, ACS and other league systems out there. Pool needs one governing body to set the rules and be the ones who lead the sport into the future.

Yeah, if what I have put out there ever went through and was successful it would BE that body. If this ever went off and became as successful as it might it would bury the other organizations. The BCAPL would become the PGA, the APA, VNEA and the rest would end up being the Egolf Professional Tour, the Gateway Tour, or the NGA Pro Golf Tour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGolf_Professional_Tour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Tour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGA_Pro_Golf_Tour

Never heard of them? That is because the PGA is the clear and recognized true professional golf tour that all of the best players in the world play on. That is what the BCAPL would become and the other leagues not associated with the actual professional ranks would be at a serious disadvantage on attracting players or dictating anything by way of rules. Those two bit golf tours up there have no bearing on what the rules of golf are, people want to know the proper rules they look to the PGA because they are THE PGA.

 

[Maniac]

This is not the way it works though, because by playing in the BCAPL it is your prize pool as much as anyone elses. You are playing in the actual league that leads to the pros. If you find success in league then you will be one of those guys in the pros that is playing in those no entry fee tournaments with guarenteed prize payouts even if you go 2 and out.

No Celtic, you obviously do not know my situation. I will be 59 years of age on my next birthday. I have very bad eyesight. I have chronic back spasms. I have had surgery on BOTH shoulders. I have neck problems. I have a wobbly stroke. And....I'm ugly too!!! (God rest your soul, Rodney D.!!!) I will NEVER be one of those "pros" playing in a no-entry fee tournament. Hell, on a good day I'm a C player. This is why I'm a league player. This is why I do not wish to support pro pool. This idea of us league guys funding pro pool is nuts. If elite players like to gamble so much, raise their entry fees to $2,000 per tourney and let them fund themselves. Aw hell no, they would rather their earnings come from us "little" guys that aren't worthy of being seeded !!!

I made about a million dollars for my 30 years of getting up at 4:30 in the morning, working 9.5 hour days (on average) on my feet on a concrete floor at at automobile assembly plant. In the 9+ years I have been retired, I have made another $300,000 or so in pension. They (the pool pros) chose their careers, I chose mine. I do not wish to just GIVE my hard-earned money to someone just because they shoot better pool than I do and need to be funded to make any money for doing so.

I love the game of pool. Pool played by the world's best players is exciting to watch. I sympathize somewhat with those frustrated with its shortcomings, but asking somebody like me (and the millions of others like myself) to involuntarily fill their pockets is asinine, imo.

Maniac

 

[Scott Lee]

Celtic...Your numbers are too high. Two reasons why this plan won't hold water. First...Mark already has a league system in place, to produce income to fund a pro tour, and a pathway to become a pro player. It's called the USAPL. It is still in it's infancy, but Mark is certainly not going to put it together with the BCAPL. Second...Mark Griffin already has done YARDS of work to help keep the game of American pool alive. He has no time nor desire to run any kind of professional tour...which I read into the implications of your plan. Put simply, your idea is okay, but it won't happen the way you have it set up.

Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com

The numbers can certainly be worked with, I basically pulled those numbers out of a hat along with the 100,000 BCAPL member number which I am going to guess was a lowball estimate.

 

[Celtic]

I have very bad eyesight. I have chronic back spasms. I have had surgery on BOTH shoulders. I have neck problems. I have a wobbly stroke. And....I'm ugly too!!!

OK well first off.... ROFLMAO

Now that that is out of the way...

This is why I'm a league player. This is why I do not wish to support pro pool. This idea of us league guys funding pro pool is nuts. If elite players like to gamble so much, raise their entry fees to $2,000 per tourney and let them fund themselves. Aw hell no, they would rather their earnings come from us "little" guys that aren't worthy of being seeded !!!

I love the game of pool. Pool played by the world's best players is exciting to watch. I sympathize somewhat with those frustrated with its shortcomings, but asking somebody like me (and the millions of others like myself) to involuntarily fill their pockets is asinine, imo.

I agree with the sentiment of pretty much everything you said, I see your point totally that you are not going to be one of those guys who rise through the system and win a tour card and I can empathise that you don't want to throw money to a bunch of pros that have at times acted pretty freaking entitled and do crap like the ABP garbage.

But on the flip side I can also see where being a "pro" pool player atm is a joke. Putting in $2000 for a chance to win money in a tournament is not being a professional anything. Professionals in sports don't pay to play, they GET paid to play. The PGA does not make tour card holding professional golfers pay entry fees into events from what I am aware, nor from what I know would the ATP World tour of tennis. Once you actually spend the time and money and energy it takes to become a professional calibre player and prove yourself as such you are rewarded with the professional ranking and you get to enter and play in the exclusive events without an entry fee. Professional golfers and professional tennis players are not paying entry fees and building their own pots, it is the fans of the sport paying to watch the sport and sponsers that are putting up the funds.

As a fan of this sport I am willing to put some money in to see some "actual" professional pool, which atm really hardly exists IMO. I can spend WAY more then the $50 I originally used in the discussion to go and watch a single Calgary Flames Hockey game from the nosebleed section, which helps pay those hockey players. I am not a hockey fan though, at all, but before TAR came along I put more money into supporting professional Hockey then I did supporting professional pool, a sport I actually do love.

Now with TAR out there I find myself putting way more money into this game buying PPV's, even if I do not particularily like the matchup I get the PPV anyhow because I want TAR to succeed and be there next year to show a match I really DO want to see. If I have to watch Raj poop all over himself and lose $50 to Cleary just so I can see SVB play Appleton in 3 race to 25 matches of 8-ball on a 10-foot diamond with 4 1/4 inch pockets then I will do that, gladly.

If the fans of this sport are of the mind that they want to put $0, absolutely nothing into the professional game whatsoever this sport is in serious trouble because fans of sports that are successful DO spend money on those sports, they spend alot of money for tickets to watch them, they buy special channels on cable to watch the games of their favorite teams, they buy jerseys, they buy $10 beers at the game and $5 hotdogs. A single night out to watch a successful sports team play a regular season game after paying for the ticket, the parking, the beer and a hotdog will ding you for $100 easily.

If a pool fan sees half of that expense over the course of an entire year as an absolute outrage, that money going towards creating a tour starting with 12 very well funded events that can then draw more sponsership into the game, events that could very possibly see finacial sense in streaming such events for free so that we can all watch them due to the benefit the sponsers would have and given the fact that the fans are now supporting that tour and in many ways deserve to watch the tour they support. If the fans of this sport think that is asking way too much or that it is asinine we are in deep, deep trouble and I will instead get a shovel and help you all dig this sports grave because it is done.

The fans of any sport that is successful finacially support that sport and are the reason it thrives.

 

[Maniac]

OK well first off.... ROFLMAO

Now that that is out of the way...



I agree with the sentiment of pretty much everything you said, I see your point totally that you are not going to be one of those guys who rise through the system and win a tour card and I can empathise that you don't want to throw money to a bunch of pros that have at times acted pretty freaking entitled and do crap like the ABP garbage.

If the fans of this sport think that is asking way too much or that it is asinine we are in deep, deep trouble and I will instead get a shovel and help you all dig this sports grave because it is done.

The fans of any sport that is successful finacially support that sport and are the reason it thrives.

With all due respect Celtic (and I DO respect your opinion btw), the point I am trying to make is that I not only am not a fan of professional pool, I am not a fan of ANY professional sport. If professional sports of ALL genres suddenly faded away into neverland, it would'nt have any life-altering effects on my life/lifestyle. FWIW, too much money that could be better used for humanity's sake for the betterment of mankind is wasted yearly on professional athletes. And....how many of them do you really think could give a fat rat's ass about YOU or the "little" people that support them??? Just my $.02, although I know it rankles many for me to say it.

Maniac (nothin' better than a good 'ol high-school game )

 

[Celtic]

With all due respect Celtic (and I DO respect your opinion btw), the point I am trying to make is that I not only am not a fan of professional pool, I am not a fan of ANY professional sport. If professional sports of ALL genres suddenly faded away into neverland, it would'nt have any life-altering effects on my life/lifestyle.

Thats totally fine, but this whole thread is about how to try to build pro pool for people who would like to see "actual" pro pool. People who enjoy pro sports (and if you go to the action room there is a slew of people on this board that enjoy their NFL) and might want to see pool become an honest to god professional sport with a real tour, real rankings, real professional status, and real money for the players to compete for and to compel them to play at a level as yet unseen in this sport.

The fact that it uses the BCAPL as an example is largely just because it has the best structure for it atm and it has the owner of that organization posting here alot and talking on podcasts constantly about how this sport might become something more then it is today. If it is the BCAPL that does it and people REALLY don't want to support pro pool there will surely still be the APA, a VNEA, an ACS to play in that won't be attached to the pros. The BCAPL is already known as a more serious players league then the APA and generally has a higher average level of play then the APA and thus it is a logical one to use for entry into the pro's because many of the players are already looking for a higher calibre of play and are more into the competitive aspect of pool as opposed to the APA's "fun" approach.

 

[The Renfro]

With Celtic as the OP 8ball didn't need to be in the title.....

I think if it's going to be 8ball just have all the pros join the BCAPL 8ball league and raise the weekly fees and payouts at nationals....

I won't ever have to worry about looking for a tourney stream or attending another event.....

 

[PETROBOY]

Yeah, if what I have put out there ever went through and was successful it would BE that body. If this ever went off and became as successful as it might it would bury the other organizations. The BCAPL would become the PGA, the APA, VNEA and the rest would end up being the Egolf Professional Tour, the Gateway Tour, or the NGA Pro Golf Tour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EGolf_Professional_Tour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Tour

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGA_Pro_Golf_Tour

Never heard of them? That is because the PGA is the clear and recognized true professional golf tour that all of the best players in the world play on. That is what the BCAPL would become and the other leagues not associated with the actual professional ranks would be at a serious disadvantage on attracting players or dictating anything by way of rules. Those two bit golf tours up there have no bearing on what the rules of golf are, people want to know the proper rules they look to the PGA because they are THE PGA.

I agree the PGA is the top tier pro tour but they arent the governing body of golf the USGA is in the states and the RCGA is here in Canada these tours follow their rules of the game. Thats what pool needs one Governing body one set of game rules. other tours could operate but would have to run under the governing bodys rules, In golf no matter what tour your on or what part of the country your in there is one set of rules to the game.
Also I believe the PGA tour charges an entry fee of $100 no exceptions, so why couldnt pool? Pros would pay a couple hundred bucks entry for a large payout tournament and the entry money could be used for expenses or streaming or something.

 

[chefjeff]

I(snip)
As the BCAPL would be the official entry into the pro ranks I think that the BCAPL league fees should in part go into the professional game. I would happily pay $2 a night of my league fees which go into professional pool IF I am playing in events that actually lead to that tour. The money earned by the league systems, by sponsership, ect... goes towards paying for the professional events, there are NO ENTRY FEES for the professional tournaments, the money comes from sponsers and the pool of money from the league system.

If the BCAPL has 100,000 (I am pretty sure I am lowballing this bigtime) players total playing league in their system and you tacked on $2 per a night on average to the league fees for each person, each person playing lets say a standardized 25 week schedual that is $50 a year from each player in the league system that would be going to the professional game. That is $5,000,000 that goes into the pro game. (snip).

Good ideas. Note that when prices change, so does human behavior in relation to those prices, therefore your numbers could be way off as this idea is implemented.

Just sayin', not pizzing on your good idea.

Jeff Livingston

 

[Donny Lutz]

Embrace the apa?

Ill be honest...i didn't read the whole thing...

None of this masters if there is no pro tour...no sponsors= no tour...

there has to be some value to putting money into this...the percentages of people good enough to benefit from this are very small...and I have a feeling that the people you would be asking to support this dont care much about pro pool.

Azbilliards is full of great players and great pool...and people here would support it...but azbiliards is also a very very small piece of the pie when it comes to actual pool players.

you want to help pool grow? Embrace the APA...sure its not "real" pool...but dont tell them that. Flag football isn't real football but everyday people go out and try to play like the pros. Slowpitch softball isn't real baseball but so many people play it trying to be their favorite star.

Its about numbers...the more people you get out playing, the more interest there is...

Not sure if embracing the APA is the way to go. As posted before, over the past 30 years some 700,000 players have quit APA. It seems they don't care for the playing rules, the format or the handicap system. Having played league pool for most of the past 46 years (LPL, NPBA, SPL, MPL, VNEA, BCA, and APA), I prefer what the VNEA and BCA have done to promote and improve the game. I would include the American Cues Sports Alliance (ACS - the only non-profit national org?).

Original post has some great ideas, not sure if "taxing" all league players is the way to go. Is the kind of cooperation needed possible in our culture of competition and greed?

From my point of view, it would take the following for pool to succeed as a major sport (remember that more people actually play pool than perhaps any other sport):
1) Room owners who actually love pool and want to promote the game.*
2) All pool league organizations adopt the World Standardized Rules (as many have done).
3) National and local pool organizations cooperate rather than compete.
4) A major airline to promote the game by offering substantial discounts for flights to national events (currently travel expenses are prohibitive).
5) An effort by the media to promote the sport, rather than just backing the established, big $ sports.
6) An effort from room owners and sponsors to promote junior leagues and tourneys.
7) More qualified instructors charging reasonable rates (it's getting to be a rich man's game if you want to get lessons, play with the best equipment, and travel to events).
8) Room owners and national organizations doing more for instructors.
9) Room owners doing more to promote women's pool.
10) More non-smoking pool rooms.
* There have been some great posts on AZ regarding the "ideal" pool hall.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

 

[Maniac]

Thats totally fine, but this whole thread is about how to try to build pro pool for people who would like to see "actual" pro pool.

And that too is totally fine, but posters are talking about taking money out of MY pockets so THEY can go see "actual" pro pool. This is what I'm against and why I think it shoud be done on a voluntary basis. I hold no ill will against pro pool, it's just that I do not wish to support it by my league fees being raised. When/if I wish to support it, i will do so by means that are of my own decision (and I HAVE done things to support pool).

Maniac

 

[stuckart]

IMO, I feel that metmot is closer to being right than you are, although his estimate of 99,653 out of 100,000 may be somewhat high.

I pay $25-a-year dues, $7-a-night for my match ($10 for Masters). I do NOT want to pay any more money to support ANYBODY elses poolplaying, and I can guarantee you I am far from alone in this thinking.
Maniac

As far as I know, the league I run in Phoenix is the only one that pays out 100% of the player dues to the players at the end of the season. Many other leagues take out huge chucks to feed their own pockets, pay for expenses, etc. I don't think it depends on what league system it is either. If there was a Pro Tour that would possibly come to town from year to year that players had to each pitch in a few bucks, I think it would be welcomed by a larger group that you think.

Like many others have said, if you took some of the money out of the pool to fund a system most players would have no idea that it was even happening. Others might even chip in more money. It just depends on the caliber of player you are looking at.

There are tons of other small details that would have to go into the plan though to make it work. One being the fact that certain cities or states were eligible for a Pro Tour Event each year or every other year. It would be easier to plan out the Pro Schedule of cities based on the Larger Cities, Areas that contribute more to the tour, etc. Who knows, even some cities could bid/donate to the fund to help get an event in their area.

Like I've said on other threads in here before, the Players that were qualified for these events would need to do extra for the hosting cities. Pro-Am's, Exhibitions, Lessons, Autograph's, etc. around all the pool rooms in the area (The ones that helped grow the leagues). That giving back to the players and pool rooms, even if it's once a year, might be the little edge needed to get players to fund a system.

(Anyway, this is all a pipe dream, but fun to talk about just like "What would I do if I won the lottery today?")

 

[juspooln]

Not sure if embracing the APA is the way to go. As posted before, over the past 30 years some 700,000 players have quit APA. It seems they don't care for the playing rules, the format or the handicap system. Having played league pool for most of the past 46 years (LPL, NPBA, SPL, MPL, VNEA, BCA, and APA), I prefer what the VNEA and BCA have done to promote and improve the game. I would include the American Cues Sports Alliance (ACS - the only non-profit national org?).

Original post has some great ideas, not sure if "taxing" all league players is the way to go. Is the kind of cooperation needed possible in our culture of competition and greed?

From my point of view, it would take the following for pool to succeed as a major sport (remember that more people actually play pool than perhaps any other sport):
1) Room owners who actually love pool and want to promote the game.*
2) All pool league organizations adopt the World Standardized Rules (as many have done).
3) National and local pool organizations cooperate rather than compete.
4) A major airline to promote the game by offering substantial discounts for flights to national events (currently travel expenses are prohibitive).
5) An effort by the media to promote the sport, rather than just backing the established, big $ sports.
6) An effort from room owners and sponsors to promote junior leagues and tourneys.
7) More qualified instructors charging reasonable rates (it's getting to be a rich man's game if you want to get lessons, play with the best equipment, and travel to events).
8) Room owners and national organizations doing more for instructors.
9) Room owners doing more to promote women's pool.
10) More non-smoking pool rooms.
* There have been some great posts on AZ regarding the "ideal" pool hall.
Donny L
BCA/ACS Instructor
Gainesville, Fl

some very good ideas on #10 I think most would accept some really good smoke eaters that actually get turned on :grin: