What I think would finally grow pool. (BCAPL/Pro/8-ball connection)

Celtic

AZB's own 8-ball jihadist
Silver Member
I was bored, this is LONG.

The biggest chance pool has atm comes from the BCAPL. I think the professional game needs to be 8-ball played on tight pocketed 9-foot and potentially even tight pocket (4 1/4) 10-foot tables once they are available. I think the game needs a proper amature system that is linked to the professional ranks and in time after a professional tour is worked out the BCAPL should slowly be altered to become a farm system for the pros such that people climb the ranks in BCAPL divisions and winners at the top ranks in the BCAPL tournament in Vegas earn tour cards onto the professional tour.

As the BCAPL would be the official entry into the pro ranks I think that the BCAPL league fees should in part go into the professional game. I would happily pay $2 a night of my league fees which go into professional pool IF I am playing in events that actually lead to that tour. The money earned by the league systems, by sponsership, ect... goes towards paying for the professional events, there are NO ENTRY FEES for the professional tournaments, the money comes from sponsers and the pool of money from the league system.

If the BCAPL has 100,000 (I am pretty sure I am lowballing this bigtime) players total playing league in their system and you tacked on $2 per a night on average to the league fees for each person, each person playing lets say a standardized 25 week schedual that is $50 a year from each player in the league system that would be going to the professional game. That is $5,000,000 that goes into the pro game. And it is in the words of Mark Griffin "Self Sustaining" because the amature ranks are going nowhere, and the attraction of playing in the league system that becomes the OFFICIAL league system of professional pool is not a small one. Amature players in all sports normally want to play in the same system that eventually leads to the professionals they watch on TV.

You enforce this point home by having one of the major pro events in Vegas during the nationals, showing the pro's playing the pro game of 8-ball which has the EXACT same rules as the amature game but is played on the larger tables with the smaller pockets. And those guys are NOT paying to play that event, it is a true professional event and required a tour card to get in and it has NO entry fee, and it has at the minimum of about $420,000 (1/12th of the $5,000,000 the league system puts in) as a prize pool assuming NO sponsership money was added.

You also really push the point home that many of the amature matches at the upper ranks are being played for TOUR CARDS, you announce "Jason Kirkwood and Jesse Bowman are about to play a semi-final match in the Grand Masters and the winner will be assured to earn their professional tour card for the 2013 season!", and people go "wow, I play in this same league system, all I gotta do is get better and climb the ranks and that might be me one day".

Now with that kind of money pro pool becomes ALOT more attractive to not only players, but fans, AND sponsors because money tends to go where the money is, if you can tell Souhtwest Airlines you want sponsership into a tour that has a pool of $5,000,000 already to spread around to 12 yearly events (one a month) you are alot more likely to get a decent chunk of change. The tournament they are thinking about sponsering already has ~$420,000 in the prize fund, the players who are going to play in the event are the touring professionals, and they get a couple sponser exemptions if they so desire. Standard sponsership might be $200,000 in order for the event to become the "Southwest Open", their official tourament with large banners, their company logo being incorperated into the tournament logo showing a plane and such.

This tournament would have a $620,000 prize pool just with a single sponser like that, and you know that Diamond is going to take part, Simonis, Aramith, possibly Kamui, and extra money will be coming in from things like that. In a 64 man professional tour, which is probably about the right size that $620,000 prize pool averages to almost $10,000/player. Of course you are not going to pay off everyone the same, but the guys who get last place can still get $2,000 and thus being on the pro tour has a minimum guarenteed income. If an amature wins his way to the professional tour, even if he is outmatched and cannot win their (and will thus lose his player card the subsequent year for not being in the top 48) just winning that tour card is going to guarentee him money for every event he gets to play.

So with JUST $2 a night from league players you could actually build a very decent pool of money to start a professional tour. You could link the amature game to the professional game through the BCAPL and make the BCAPL the most dominant amature league system out there due to that connection, making the BCAPL the farm system of pro pool, a PGAesque qualifying school, and likely in time this would help the BCAPL bleed players away from the VNEA and APA and strengthen their own league system with more players since the players of the amature game are going to want to be associated with what would become the true official professional tour of billiards in North America.

As the BCAPL grows like that, so does that influx of money that goes into the pro game, 200,000 players in the BCAPL would equate to $10,000,000 a year going towards the pro game. Once you start getting money like that pool starts to look more attractive to fans, to sponsers, and it starts to build upon itself.

If I had the BCAPL and I really wanted to do something to attempt to grow pool that is what I would do. I would start charging $2 more per a night for league starting in the 2012 new season, that money would go into a pro pool fund aimed at building a tour, I would explain to the players about the price increase, the upcomming professional tour being built around the game they play, 8-ball, I would tell them the first tournament ever on the tour will be in Vegas during their nationals and it will be free to watch for all members, I would have a FREE stream that would be viewable for any members not able to make it to Vegas.

I would tell the players that the upcomming BCAPL Nationals will also be the first ones where the division structure would be altered from it's current state to 1) Intermediate, 2) Advanced, 3) Masters, and 4) Grand Masters" and that current ranking as they stand in the BCAPL would be used to ascertain where people would be placed initially. The tournament in Vegas would award 16 tour cards each year out of the Grand Masters tournament to replace the lowest 16 players from the tour who lose their cards the previous year from the total of 64 players.

Qualification to play in the Grand Masters would require a finish in the top 25% of the Masters tournament, playing in the Masters would require a finish in the top 25% of the Advanced, playing in the Advanced requires a finish in the top 25% of the Intermediate. Getting in the bottom 25% of the Grandmasters in 2 consecutive years would require you to play in the Masters, getting in the bottom 25% of the Masters for two consecutive years would require you to drop into the Advanced, and getting into the bottom 25% of the Advanced for 2 consecutive years would drop you to the lowest division, the Intermediate.

Finalists of each division (both 1st and second place) skip a division. Thus the guy who wins or gets 2nd the Intermediate plays in the Masters the following year, the guy who wins or gets 2nd in the Advanced plays in the Grand Masters the following year.

So the amature level of the BCAPL would become ALOT more structured to actually being the "minor leagues" leading to professional pool.

That is IMO one of the few things that I actually think COULD be done that would have a chance to change the game for the better over the course of the next decade considerably. And I think that the BCAPL could actually, conceivably do it, it is actually possible and it could actually work.
 
I was thinking more on it.

"But Celtic, what happens when a new player shows up who is not from North America and wants to get onto the professional tour?"

Lets say the tour was running for a few yeara already, it has it's 64 players, it has it's 16 that get kicked off each season that go back to the Grand Masters to try and re-qualify for the tour, and it has it's 16 players that come in strictly through the BCAPL system to take their place.

How does a top pro from Europe or Asia that came over get into the pro ranks without playing "league" if they are already pro calibre?

On this I would say they play the singles in Vegas, have to climb the ladder, but are not required to play "league". Instead of paying the standard entry fee of $150 that league members pay to enter the singles a non-BCAPL league player must pay $450 to enter the singles event. They still start at Intermediate level as you must earn the higher rankings, but they "should" manage to get 1st or 2nd if they are a pro level player in that event and as such the next year they are in the Masters level, now all they need to do is get top 25% of the field and they are in the Grand Masters the following year and can win their tour card.

Over the long run if a league/tour system like this were set up, once it was stabalized and running well I would start to work on moving the BCAPL league system worldwide, get BCAPL leagues started up in Europe, in Asia, in the Middle East, such that the yearly BCAPL tournament becomes an international event with players from all over the world and up and coming pros in different countries would then hopefully be involved in the BCAPL league system from a younger age and rise through it naturally instead of being a top pro before they ever entered the system.

You would then of course begin to have overseas events, attempt to obtain overseas sponsers, and build the tour on a global level.
 
Ideas

The problem is not with most of these ideas, some are really good (and I have a few of my own after playing for 50 years), and everyone will go, "Wow, that sounds good", but noone will step up to the plate to make some of these ideas work. We have some posters on here that could very well change Pool for the better is they really wanted to, they just don't want to bad enough. Most of the people in Pool today are big fish in little ponds, with no interest in improving Pool in general for the overall good of the sport, and for the professional players.

I volunteered my services, free of charge, to the UPA years ago, and was told, not kindly either, that my services were not needed.

So I ask, who will step up to the plate???
 
The problem is not with most of these ideas, some are really good (and I have a few of my own after playing for 50 years), and everyone will go, "Wow, that sounds good", but noone will step up to the plate to make some of these ideas work. We have some posters on here that could very well change Pool for the better is they really wanted to, they just don't want to bad enough. Most of the people in Pool today are big fish in little ponds, with no interest in improving Pool in general for the overall good of the sport, and for the professional players.

I volunteered my services, free of charge, to the UPA years ago, and was told, not kindly either, that my services were not needed.

So I ask, who will step up to the plate???

Well given that I used the BCAPL as the key asset that would be required to make something like this work it would be Mark Griffin that would have the power to do this if he really wanted to. Without the well established league with a large playerbase already in place this is impossible for pretty much anyone else. I don't actually thing the VNEA, APA, or any other league system could even come close to doing something like I suggest to the same level that the BCAPL could.
 
The problem is not with most of these ideas, some are really good (and I have a few of my own after playing for 50 years), and everyone will go, "Wow, that sounds good", but noone will step up to the plate to make some of these ideas work. We have some posters on here that could very well change Pool for the better is they really wanted to, they just don't want to bad enough. Most of the people in Pool today are big fish in little ponds, with no interest in improving Pool in general for the overall good of the sport, and for the professional players.

I volunteered my services, free of charge, to the UPA years ago, and was told, not kindly either, that my services were not needed.

So I ask, who will step up to the plate???

Kevin Trudeau might be interested.
 
Ill be honest...i didn't read the whole thing...

None of this masters if there is no pro tour...no sponsors= no tour...

there has to be some value to putting money into this...the percentages of people good enough to benefit from this are very small...and I have a feeling that the people you would be asking to support this dont care much about pro pool.

Azbilliards is full of great players and great pool...and people here would support it...but azbiliards is also a very very small piece of the pie when it comes to actual pool players.

you want to help pool grow? Embrace the APA...sure its not "real" pool...but dont tell them that. Flag football isn't real football but everyday people go out and try to play like the pros. Slowpitch softball isn't real baseball but so many people play it trying to be their favorite star.

Its about numbers...the more people you get out playing, the more interest there is...
 
100,000 players but......

99,653 of them are the same. I'm president of our local BCA league and I can tell you unequivocally that if I asked these folks for 2 bucks a week for the pros in order to develop the sport I would get reactions from being laughed at to stabbed.

So that leaves 347 souls willing to pony up for the plan. Good luck with your $694 a week.
 
Ill be honest...i didn't read the whole thing...

None of this masters if there is no pro tour...no sponsors= no tour...

there has to be some value to putting money into this...the percentages of people good enough to benefit from this are very small...and I have a feeling that the people you would be asking to support this dont care much about pro pool.

Azbilliards is full of great players and great pool...and people here would support it...but azbiliards is also a very very small piece of the pie when it comes to actual pool players.

you want to help pool grow? Embrace the APA...sure its not "real" pool...but dont tell them that. Flag football isn't real football but everyday people go out and try to play like the pros. Slowpitch softball isn't real baseball but so many people play it trying to be their favorite star.

Its about numbers...the more people you get out playing, the more interest there is...

Let's get the APA to feed into the BCAPL System at $1/player and then it's easy to get $2/player from the BCAPL players each week. There are far more APA players as they are all C and D type players and their money would fund Regional and National BCAPL Events and then the BCAPL could fund the Pro Tour. Hey, it could happen.
 
99,653 of them are the same. I'm president of our local BCA league and I can tell you unequivocally that if I asked these folks for 2 bucks a week for the pros in order to develop the sport I would get reactions from being laughed at to stabbed.

So that leaves 347 souls willing to pony up for the plan. Good luck with your $694 a week.

I run a league with 80-90 players each session and I would be able to get 70-80 of them to pay the dues without much resistance. We have players fighting to get into our league as we cap it off.
 
League play has never been the answer to the pro game, never will be. They're just two different paths to two different goals.

The answer to the pro game is motivation to create a universal governing body and unity in the sport nationwide. Then you can establish farming routes and the rest will follow.

Motivation by those with the power and financial means is the key and the problem. The game in its current state doesn't offer the potential for gains needed to motivate the right people. And you cant change or fix the "now" part of the game. Youd have to go back to the infancy of the game, recreate its image and start promotion of the sport in the earliest stages of our children. Its almost one of those "you can't get there from here" situations. It would require and 10-20 year plan consisting of the development of governing bodies, sponsorships and scholarship programs paired with full media campaign. IMO.

It doesn't take more ideas, it takes more reason. ;)
 
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I was bored, this is LONG.

You're right, your OP was longer than Earl's cue ;). :thumbup:

You have made some fine points and have a lot of good ideas. Problem is, I've been reading these same ideas/points on this website since I started coming on here. Many a past thread have covered these subjects and still with no workable solution to it all. Face it, the American pool scene is what it is, recreational pastimes. I cannot fathom any major changes to it in the foreseeable future.

The future seems to be gravitating more toward electronic gaming. It's fast, it's relatively easy, and it can be easily done both from a home base or while mobile. Getting a large number of kids to put down their joysticks and pick up a cuestick is getting harder and harder as time progresses.

I can only hope against hope that the trend changes.

Maniac (joystick illiterate :o)
 
Pool will return when they legalize gambling and pool rooms can subsidize the the pool income with the gambling revenue... When cherry masters were legal in Tennessee you had pool rooms everywhere......
 
League play has never been the answer to the pro game, never will be. They're just two different paths to two different goals.

The answer to the pro game is motivation to create a universal governing body and unity in the sport nationwide. Then you can establish farming routes and the rest will follow.

Motivation by those with the power and financial means is the key and the problem. The game in its current state doesn't offer the potential for gains needed to motivate the right people. And you cant change or fix the "now" part of the game. Youd have to go back to the infancy of the game, recreate its image and start promotion of the sport in the earliest stages of our children. Its almost one of those "you can't get there from here" situations. It would require and 10-20 year plan consisting of the development of governing bodies, sponsorships and scholarship programs paired with full media campaign. IMO.

It doesn't take more ideas, it takes more reason. ;)





The answer to the pro game is motivation to create a universal governing body and unity in the sport nationwide.




You have a problem in that you live in a free country and no one has to buy into a governing body . Compared to other sports pool tournaments can be held at venues that are not dedicated pool venues . Anybody could create a competing association , and hold their own tournaments , with the highest bidder getting various players on their tour .

Any promoter like Berman and whoever does the DCC could form a loose association and have tournaments. A universal governing body can only exist if the government shuts down peoples rights.
 
I run a league with 80-90 players each session and I would be able to get 70-80 of them to pay the dues without much resistance. We have players fighting to get into our league as we cap it off.

IMO, I feel that metmot is closer to being right than you are, although his estimate of 99,653 out of 100,000 may be somewhat high.

I pay $25-a-year dues, $7-a-night for my match ($10 for Masters). I do NOT want to pay any more money to support ANYBODY elses poolplaying, and I can guarantee you I am far from alone in this thinking. If the money for a professional tour was coming out of the current money/dues that I'm already paying, then I'm okay with that. But....I just don't want my membership dues or nightly fees to go up to support anybody. Now, that said, I think if there was a way that league poolplayers could VOLUNTARILY donate for the cause of pro pool, then I wholeheartedly agree with this concept. Of course, I seriously doubt that enough money could be raised in this manner to make a bit of difference.

Think of the poor souls that play in 3-5 leagues a week. You think they would want to pay an extra $10-a-week to pro poolplayers???

Maniac
 
I'm in!

Now I'm not a part of a BCAPL league so do I just send my 2 dollars straight to you, or do I send to Mark Griffin?

Let's get the ball rolling.
 
If the money for a professional tour was coming out of the current money/dues that I'm already paying, then I'm okay with that.

I mean this to read: If the BCAPL (or any other league) wants to trim their current earnings to take pro pool money out of my CURRENT dues (at the present amount), then.....I'm okay with that.

Maniac
 
IMO, I feel that metmot is closer to being right than you are, although his estimate of 99,653 out of 100,000 may be somewhat high.

I pay $25-a-year dues, $7-a-night for my match ($10 for Masters). I do NOT want to pay any more money to support ANYBODY elses poolplaying, and I can guarantee you I am far from alone in this thinking. If the money for a professional tour was coming out of the current money/dues that I'm already paying, then I'm okay with that. But....I just don't want my membership dues or nightly fees to go up to support anybody. Now, that said, I think if there was a way that league poolplayers could VOLUNTARILY donate for the cause of pro pool, then I wholeheartedly agree with this concept. Of course, I seriously doubt that enough money could be raised in this manner to make a bit of difference.

Think of the poor souls that play in 3-5 leagues a week. You think they would want to pay an extra $10-a-week to pro poolplayers???

Maniac

I don't think it would work if it was a weekly thing. I think as part of an annual membership fee it could be sneaked in. They would just have to explain briefly why this would be a benefit to their members. I think the numbers that Celtic came up with are too high though. I would think you could get 20 bucks a year out of most people vs. 50. That would equal 2 million and I think that would be enough to get the ball rolling.
 
I don't think it would work if it was a weekly thing. I think as part of an annual membership fee it could be sneaked in. They would just have to explain briefly why this would be a benefit to their members. I think the numbers that Celtic came up with are too high though. I would think you could get 20 bucks a year out of most people vs. 50. That would equal 2 million and I think that would be enough to get the ball rolling.

My bad on thinking it was from weekly dues :o. Coming out of the yearly dues DOES make more sense. I still think anyone supporting pro pool should only be asked to do so voluntarily though!!!

Maniac
 
If a pro tour is only viable through requiring donations then perhaps there shouldn't be a pro tour. It sounds more like a charity for professional pool players than a real professional tour. And I'm a pool player that actually supports the pro game by attending events, purchasing streams, and occasionally throwing my dead money into the entry pool.
 
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