What is the rule here?

IntoTheRail

IntoTheRail

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member

CueTable Help



I saw this happen while watching a live stream a week ago or so of a pro event. I wont name the pro that did this to avoid any biased opinions but Im sure others saw it too so it will probably be mentioned.

In this particular event if you missed a ball your opponent would get ball in hand. So, Player 1 is shooting at the 7 ball and trying to break out the 8 as it doesnt look like it has an available pocket. However he hung the 7 in the pocket and as the cueball is flying right toward the 8 and 10, Player 1 stops the cue ball with his stick on purpose. He kind of makes it look like he just did it out of disgust of missing the 7 but he knew exactly what he was doing. Player 2 brings up what just happened and I couldnt really tell but it looked like an official off camera just told him to take ball in hand.
I also saw another pro do this in a match at Derby a few years ago, where he missed a kick and as the cueball is screaming around the table and heading right for a cluster he stops it and grabs the ball to hand it to his opponent.

Now obviously you cant foul twice in the same shot. But this seems like a very poor display of sportsmanship and there should be some sort of rule for it. I would think this would fall under the same category of raking the balls and should result in a loss of game.
 
I don't know what rules were in effect for that tournament. But if they were playing under WPA World-Standardized rules, it was a Touched Ball foul. If it was intentional, as you indicate, it is Unsportsmanlike Conduct, for which the penalty is up to the referee. Here are the WPA rules:

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
​

In 10-ball, a serious foul is defined as follows:

9.11 Serious Fouls
For 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, the penalty is loss of the current rack. For 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, the referee will choose a penalty appropriate given the nature of the offense.​
 
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AtLarge said:
I don't know what rules were in effect for that tournament. But if they were playing under WPA World-Standardized rules, it was a Touched Ball foul. If it was intentional, as you indicate, it is Unsportsmanlike Conduct, for which the penalty is up to the referee. Here are the WPA rules:

6.6 Touched Ball
It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of any object ball except by the normal ball-to-ball contacts during shots. It is a foul to touch, move or change the path of the cue ball except when it is in hand or by the normal tip-to-ball forward stroke contact of a shot. The shooter is responsible for the equipment he controls at the table, such as chalk, bridges, clothing, his hair, parts of his body, and the cue ball when it is in hand, that may be involved in such fouls. If such a foul is accidental, it is a standard foul, but if it is intentional, it is 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul, but the referee may impose a penalty depending on his judgment of the conduct. Among other penalties possible are a warning; a standard-foul penalty, which will count as part of a three-foul sequence if applicable; a serious-foul penalty; loss of a rack, set or match; ejection from the competition possibly with forfeiture of all prizes, trophies and standings points.
Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
(a) distracting the opponent;
(b) changing the position of the balls in play other than by a shot;
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
(d) continuing to play after a foul has been called or play has been suspended;
(e) practicing during a match;
(f) marking the table;
(g) delay of the game; and
(h) using equipment inappropriately.
​

In 10-ball, a serious foul is defined as follows:

9.11 Serious Fouls
For 6.14 Three Consecutive Fouls, the penalty is loss of the current rack. For 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct, the referee will choose a penalty appropriate given the nature of the offense.​
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Thanks for the rule posting. I guess it becomes more of a cloudy area since the player has already committed a foul. This also brings up the big problem with 10 ball that most tournaments dont follow any standard rules. Like in this event if you did not call a safe and failed to pocket a ball it was considered a foul and your opponent would get ball in hand. I dont know, just seems shady to me and I would have a real problem if someone did this to me in an event.
 
IntoTheRail said:
I dont know, just seems shady to me and I would have a real problem if someone did this to me in an event.
Click to expand...


I saw it too.

I also would have had a problem with this and agree it IS "shady". But, I would have had a real issue with the referee in the exact scenario that was described if my opponent was not charged with a loss-of-game.

I think the referee, probably being somewhat swayed by the fact that this was a highly-seasoned pro that altered (stopped, in fact) the path of the cue ball, was maybe a bit intimidated and not wanting to "ruffle feathers" in this case. I say that NOBODY is above the rules of ANY given game. Bad decision on the ref, imo.

Maniac
 
Maniac said:
I saw it too.

I also would have had a problem with this and agree it IS "shady". But, I would have had a real issue with the referee in the exact scenario that was described if my opponent was not charged with a loss-of-game.

I think the referee, probably being somewhat swayed by the fact that this was a highly-seasoned pro that altered (stopped, in fact) the path of the cue ball, was maybe a bit intimidated and not wanting to "ruffle feathers" in this case. I say that NOBODY is above the rules of ANY given game. Bad decision on the ref, imo.

Maniac
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Well said. i didnt really think of that but yeah I could definitely see that playing into what happened. Especially since the incoming player didnt make a real big stink about it.
 
Tune in Tuesday nights at 9PM CST to the Members Only tab on PoolActionTV.com and see this match and others.

To get the password you will need to be a member of PoolActionTV. It's FREE! Simply e-mail your contact info to:

PoolActionTVHD@gmail.com

We will be sending out the login info at 5pm CST Tuesday.

Thanks,

Ray
 
Bigtruck said:
Tune in Tuesday nights at 9PM CST to the Members Only tab on PoolActionTV.com and see this match and others.

To get the password you will need to be a member of PoolActionTV. It's FREE! Simply e-mail your contact info to:

PoolActionTVHD@gmail.com

We will be sending out the login info at 5pm CST Tuesday.

Thanks,

Ray
Click to expand...

Nice plug Bigtruck! Great job on the streams by the way, the quality is great. Love the multiple camera angles as well.

I am guessing that you remember this moment happening. Do you have a take on it or can you provide some inside info as to if the ref was involved?
 
intentional fouls

An intentional foul is loss of game. I was hill hill in a finals and my opponent missed an easy side pocket shot with the cue ball coming to center table off 3 rails. As the cue ball came back towards him he hit the cue ball purposefully with the heel of his hand in anger. Loss of game, therfore loss of set........thanks for that one, I'll never forget it. I you can't guess where the cue ball would end up it's over.
 
If it's my call, that's a loss of game. I would place that one under unsportsmanlike conduct. I might warn the guy who did it, that if he does it again, he could lose the match. That now becomes a judgment call. I want to make sure he understands we won't tolerate that type of thing in this event.

I did have one instance somewhat similar many years back. The cue ball hung on the edge of the pocket and the incoming player blew on it, and it dropped in. He thought it was funny until I awarded the game to his opponent. That was his last "blow job" on the cue ball.
 
Cheating

If the ref feels he did it in full knowedge that he was avoiding
the break-out...
i feel it should be disqualification
 
pt109 said:
If the ref feels he did it in full knowedge that he was avoiding
the break-out...
i feel it should be disqualification
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I will be airing all matches that I have from this event, 2 matches every Tuesday.

Me and the stream team will be there LIVE in the chat. Stop by and say hello!

9pm CST on the members only page on PoolActionTV.

Ray
 
Maniac said:
I saw it too.

I also would have had a problem with this and agree it IS "shady". But, I would have had a real issue with the referee in the exact scenario that was described if my opponent was not charged with a loss-of-game.

I think the referee, probably being somewhat swayed by the fact that this was a highly-seasoned pro that altered (stopped, in fact) the path of the cue ball, was maybe a bit intimidated and not wanting to "ruffle feathers" in this case. I say that NOBODY is above the rules of ANY given game. Bad decision on the ref, imo.

Maniac
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Who was the pro?

I was in a 10 ball ring game a while back and a guy dogged an easy shot on the 10 ball, got mad and deliberaely fouled the cue ball. Big argument ensued, we ended up playing the game over with the offending party sitting out that game.
 
Bigtruck said:
I will be airing all matches that I have from this event, 2 matches every Tuesday.

Me and the stream team will be there LIVE in the chat. Stop by and say hello!

9pm CST on the members only page on PoolActionTV.

Ray
Click to expand...

Oh man, that's both awesome and awful. It's great for everyone else, but Tuesdays are my league nights, so I'll miss the streams, every week. :(

Once you stream them, will they then be available for the other members who couldn't make it on Tuesdays in the members-only-archive section?
 
alstl said:
Who was the pro?

I was in a 10 ball ring game a while back and a guy dogged an easy shot on the 10 ball, got mad and deliberaely fouled the cue ball. Big argument ensued, we ended up playing the game over with the offending party sitting out that game.
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Mika while he was playing SVB
 
stljohnny said:
Oh man, that's both awesome and awful. It's great for everyone else, but Tuesdays are my league nights, so I'll miss the streams, every week. :(

Once you stream them, will they then be available for the other members who couldn't make it on Tuesdays in the members-only-archive section?
Click to expand...

Yes they will.
 
alstl said:
Van Boening is too nice of a guy not to raise a stink about something like that. Did it factor in the outcome of the match?
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If I remember correctly SVB still ran out but that is not the point. The whole match Mika was whining and throwing his arms all over the place. He acts like such a baby sometimes it is sickening. And he knew exactly what he was doing and in my opinion that shows a lack of character to do something like that. Two time US Open champ or not, hes still a douche in my book.
 
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