What makes the Filipinos SO STRONG!

[iwilleatyou]

Level of competition

It's the same reason inner cities in America produce the best basketball players and the Caribbean produces the best baseball players. The level of day in and day out competition in simply higher. Of course there are exceptions to the rule and people come from seemingly now where, like French Lick, IN or Sioux Falls, SD, but not usually. If colleges had pool teams, where do you think the scouts would go?

 

[sygfrid]

Stress!

If I were to summarize the replies of sputnik, jay h, gunzby, joeyincali, and others in one word, it will be STRESS

Stress induces learning. Playing rotation and even 8 ball are harder than 9 or 10 ball. The pressures of winning/losing a bet more than a day's (even 2 weeks) worth of salary, paying back the "sponsor" or manager, getting some money to add to one's income for daily wants, needs, etc... All these STRESSES or motivators make the brain LEARN faster. And if you're constantly bombarded with these kind of stresses, you'll eventually get used to it, gain control of yourself, and eventually manipulate these stresses to your advantage (leaning/dissecting gathered data, gaining confidence by testing new knowledge, then applying knowledge to a new scenario). Also, we like to have fun while playing seriously (this also contributes to faster learning)

Often here in the Philippines, if you want to learn, you have to play against the good players. And if you want to play them, you'll have to be ready to shell out some cash, whether it's yours or from your sponsors/managers. Moreover, winning/losing money games is such a great motivator to our players and overcoming the stress of it dictates the winner. That's why you'll hear some good players lose because they were unable to control the "daga" (trans MOUSE/RAT) in their chest :wink:

 

[ShootingArts]

desire, dedication and equipment

Everybody wants to win. Everyone doesn't have a burning desire down in their gut that they have to win. I wanted to win every time I have ever competed. Some events I wanted to win far more than others however. I think the people from harsher environments bring more of this deep down gut desire to win every time. Too, for the Filipinos, we see that losing your job might be the least of your worries if your backer thinks you laid down. Nothing like a gun to your head to provide incentive!

Besides playing tougher games coming up and playing endless hours, one thing I think isn't given enough credit in developing them as players is the equipment they play on. Crappy tables aren't just crappy tables, every one of them is different. You have to adapt to a new table in a hurry to survive. The old road players in the US were the same way. They had to adapt to whatever tables and lighting they found and without AC every pool hall could be much different and even the same pool hall was different if it was hot or cold, rainy or sunny. Often the old players couldn't bring their own stick in the place either so they were adapting to a new house stick every place and the sticks were often in worse shape than the tables.

Once you can adapt to these radical changes adjusting to the changes moving from table to table at a venue or when getting under the TV lights is a piece of cake. Often the winner is decided by who gets "on" playing that table first.

Many small countries produce an exceptional number of competitors in one field. I think this is because one or two people emerge and show the rest of the population that this is something they can do and it can be a ticket to the good life. Belief plays a huge part too.

Hu

 

[devindra]

johnny archer and earl strickland,varner sigel etc.
archer alone has won more tourneys than the whole pinoy crew combined.

i dont know where its written in stone that he would lose to them.

for the record we play different games one hole ,14.1 in usa.

if any of the pinoys would like to play onehole,14.1 and 10ball im sure we could have our top 20 play there top 20 and all around.

thats if i can get our top 20 to quit playing golf, poker ,side jobs ,lessons ,dirt biking etc.,

just to be more clear iull play any asian 14.1 i might not win but it will be a tough game, for them and me .

also if the top say 30 pinoys want to play 14.1,10ball,and one hole which are all poolgames then ill play each one of them for a decent amount.

that way we can find out whos the better poolplayer since those are all poolgames.

I don't think America stands a chance against the filipinos imo. Archer may have more tournament wins than let's say Efren but that does not mean that he is stronger.

 

[Tokyo-dave]

I've posted in the past on this subject, and based on my experiences from my time in the PI, and my time in Japan playing with/against many PI players that live there, I feel that it's all about the enviornment that they come from, and there are many factors to that.
1) Equipment (or lack of) The conditions of many of the 'street' places in the PI are extrememly sub-par. Where players from more developed countries concern themselves with the perfect weight of cue, good cloth, level tables, less deflecting cues and so on, in general, the players in the PI play with and play on whatever they can get their hands on.
In the PI, many of the places I played, they send a staff member to the table to rack after each game, and often times, one of the first things they do would be to spread out all the wrinkles on the cloth before each game. Seriously, some tables were clothed so poorly, you could literally pinch the cloth and pull it a good two inches off the surface!!

2) Available time: This is something you'll see in "3rd world countries" more often than in developed countries. In the PI, you're typical 15 year old school dropout kid usually doesn't need much money to get by. Kids and young adults can get an odd job here and there doing work for the lady down the street, the uncles shop, or whatever................and generally on an 'as needed' basis. Typical example: I knew a kid that had no car, so no payments, didn't need to pay rent 'cause he lived with family, didn't have a girl, and food money was minimal because a certain relative in the family living overseas regularly sent money to help with daily expenses. This kid played every day, and usually close to 7 hours daily, and most of it in action!! And when he really needed some cash, he'd help his uncle fix a car, or pull weeds for the lady down the street, or whatever odd job he could find that typically took only a day, and would give him enough cash to keep him going for weeks.
Could a kid or young adult in the US or any other developed country maintain that kind of a lifestyle while still being able to put that much time into playing?
Financial obligations are very few for many in the PI, so the need to work a steady time consuming job often doesn't exist, leaving lot's of time to spend playing pool.
dave

 

[LAMas]

....thats if i can get our top 20 to quit playing golf, poker ,side jobs ,lessons ,dirt biking etc.,...

.

There are too many distractions here in the US. When the pinoys come to CA, they eat, play cards and live together - they never seem to be distracted by having women to deal with.

 

[LAMas]

They take TOUGH action.
Here, even the pros, just want the nuts.
I thought King Kong had the nuts on Alcano with him getting 5-6-7.
And one thing they have there is great support from backers and bettors.

King Kong heard about the spot and came to play Alcano for he said that no one had ever given him such a great spot so he had to play.

Why not? After all King Kong beat Efren on the big table playing golf for some benjies.

 

[poolpimp13]

All good replies. However I still think that America has players who don't lack for knowledge of how to play. The Filipinos grew on rotation ok and as such they become great kickers and bankers - but our players grew up on nine ball which also requires kicking and banking skills. Does anyone believe that Johnny Archer ever looks at a rack of nine ball and doesn't know the right way to play it?

I understand the geograpghy issues, I understand the economic issues and the rest that makes the Filipino player want to win.

But I have to believe that when Gave Owen, Johhny, Rodney, Shane, and the rest of our top players get in the box for any amount then they want to win to, don't they?

So if they really WANT to win then it begs the question of CAN they win?

Shane played Lee Van Corteza in the Phillipines and Lee Van didn't outplay Shane, Shane made more mistakes and gave it away. Lee Van played great pool but if Shane would have not made so many mistakes then the score would have looked otherwise.

I just don't want to believe that our best players are that much weaker than the Filipinos. But when our players duck them or make a lot of mistakes when they do play then I have to wonder.

I am the last person on this board to wrap myself in the flag. This is really more about personal pride than anything. I obviously can't know how a top American player really feels inside on this issue but I feel as though IF I were a top American player then I would be HUNTING down anyone and everyone who wanted to play regardless of their nationality.

put them on a table with tight pockets playing 9ball and ill take archer.

 

[unknownpro]

All good replies. However I still think that America has players who don't lack for knowledge of how to play. The Filipinos grew on rotation ok and as such they become great kickers and bankers - but our players grew up on nine ball which also requires kicking and banking skills. Does anyone believe that Johnny Archer ever looks at a rack of nine ball and doesn't know the right way to play it?

Growing up on rotation makes you shoot thousands of combinations and caroms and breakout shots from all sorts of different positions. (especially playing shoot to make) I'd say at least 10 times as much as nine ball players, maybe a lot more.

The ten ball ghost can be beaten even on tight tables without breaking out balls or shooting combos and caroms at all with a good rack if you play well enough.

The games are so different it is almost like comparing checkers to chess. The chess players advantage would not be easily recognized playing checkers, but when they moved to chess it would be a different story.

However there have been a few games of rotation played here. Some of us even grew up playing the game...:grin:

 

[Danny Kuykendal]

Simple, What makes the Philipinos so strong?
It's their background in rotation. We play rotation with nine balls and they play it with fifteen. Nine ball is a piece of cake after playing rotation all your life.

 

[crosseyedjoe]

Hustling and taking on a locked game are just as prevalent in the Philippines like anywhere in the US. It's actually even worse. Which is also the most striking fact about Filipino players, they are all gamblers. They have honed the gambling mentality which even the most experienced players in the US have not. Tournament play and match game involve a completely different mindset.

 

[Jim Kuykendall]

It's easy to play for everything when you don't have anything.

 

[Mowem down]

Its not that hard to explain..

Rotation on 10fters, throw in some three cushion billiards and all the time in the world to play because there is no money to do anything eles.

P.S. Anybody that thinks its because Americans dont have heart or desire or any of that other B.S..Need to pack their s**t and get the h*ll out of my USA.. Have those Phillippinos put together their best football players and we'll have um play the BOYS from Texas or Oklahoma, then we'll see whos heart is in question.

Pool is dead in the USA because there is so many cool things to do. Im sure there is a bunch of top notch mountain bikers, snow boarders, golfers, surfers, hikers, rock climbers, river and lake fisherman, ect. ect. ect. in the Philippine's, you just dont hear about them

 

[deanoc]

My guess is that they have a better work ethic.This means they do what it takes to prepare to win.I suspect they practice scientifically,shooting drills that actually improve their talents and share ideas that help each other.

 

[ccshrimper]

Alot of good points here and I liked what Mowem said too. Pool is not a priority anymore in the US. There are better sports for guys with great hand-eye coordination to play and make a living at. Just like boxing, our best athletes can make considerably more playing baseball, football or basketball. That's the reason the American boxers don't compete as well anymore. Peyton Manning will make more in one year than any of the top boxers will in their career unless they get a Delahoya fight.

 

[ShootingArts]

been there

P.S. Anybody that thinks its because Americans dont have heart or desire or any of that other B.S..Need to pack their s**t and get the h*ll out of my USA.. Have those Phillippinos put together their best football players and we'll have um play the BOYS from Texas or Oklahoma, then we'll see whos heart is in question.

First off, this is as much or more my USA than anybody else's. My family has been here since before there was a USA, several branches of it. If anybody leaves it won't be me. Get your butt in the air, like it or not, a well fed dog doesn't hunt like a hungry one. The same is true of pool players.

Hu

 

[augustine tan]

?

americans are great players, just that filipinos needed to the win more than them at times.

pool is much bigger in philipines than in america, or anywhere else.

you guys forgot about the taiwanese pool is big over there, with lots of coverage on television. They even show the us open, ipt events

if theres a world pool league between these three nations, lets say 3 americans 3 taiwanese and 3 filipinos, there a chance that a taiwanese will win it, every aspect of their game is very strong

 

[JB Cases]

johnny archer and earl strickland,varner sigel etc.
archer alone has won more tourneys than the whole pinoy crew combined.

i dont know where its written in stone that he would lose to them.

for the record we play different games one hole ,14.1 in usa.

if any of the pinoys would like to play onehole,14.1 and 10ball im sure we could have our top 20 play there top 20 and all around.

thats if i can get our top 20 to quit playing golf, poker ,side jobs ,lessons ,dirt biking etc.,

just to be more clear iull play any asian 14.1 i might not win but it will be a tough game, for them and me .

also if the top say 30 pinoys want to play 14.1,10ball,and one hole which are all poolgames then ill play each one of them for a decent amount.

that way we can find out whos the better poolplayer since those are all poolgames.

So if Efren came up to you at DCC and said he'd play a set of ten ball, one pocket, and 14.1 for a $1000 a set (or more) then you would play him even with no spot? Or Orcullo or Bustamante? No haggling, woofing, negotiating? Just get up and play?

That would be cool to see.

This year at DCC I'd love to hear of the Americans getting in the box - even if it's just for $500 a set or something, against the Filipinos or Taiwanese. I know how strong the Filipino players are, we all do. But I want to see the Americans asserting themselves because I KNOW that you all can flat play.

To Shooting Arts: I know that the players in the PI have to fade different tables but so do people in the USA. My thinking though runs in the opposite direction. IF the players in the USA are treated to perfect equipment then they should be perfectly adjusted to it. So IF a foreign player can instantly adjust to table conditions then there is no advantage for either player as both of them are prefectly comfortable with the table.

I think it comes down to the American players not being able to fade the pressure and get out when they should. It's like me playing a "name" player and making critical mistakes. If I don't know who that player is then I play much better.

HOWEVER - I am willing to accept that the Pinoy players are really that much better because of the reasons mentioned, technically because of the games they play and conditions they play under, and mentally because of the economic climate and constant challenge to maintain a high status.

Anyway, I hope to hear of some good matchups this year from Derby! Good luck to everyone going and playing. I hope everyone comes out winner in some way or another.

 

[sputnik]

Another factor is sharing knowledge. It is common for Filipinos, Efren included, to gather around the table after a money game match and discuss the crucial points in the game by simulating the situation on the table and taking turns with what should have been. Even third-rates have their turn in immitating the best proven solution.

I heard Efren frustratingly tell Ronnie Alcano once that among all the pinoys, he had taught Alcano almost all the shots he knew, but he cannot teach Alcano how to win. Efren shares more than skill, as well as all the rest of the pinoys. Even "Managers" use Efren when they have attitude problems with other players.

There is an unspoken hierarchy in Philippine pool, but this respect is earned with performance, caring for others, and sharing. Even in non-skill matters, the pinoys help each other. When a Gabica from another camp has problems, he calls on the Champ for advise (we call Efren "Champ" here). Efren should probably be called "godfather" because in the rarity of his opening his mouth, everybody listens.

But what is also striking is that the pinoys take more risks on the table. Perhaps it is in the number of battles that they have seriously been tested with that had made these impossible situations common enough to apply risky formulas to in tournaments... tournament critical shots that have semblances to trickshots on a set-up table. It is the familiarity in what had been done before on the table that gives them enough confidence to come up with awesome shots, and it can be argued that these shots take effect on the morale of the one sitting down; of course aside from not allowing that guy to stand up for his turn.

IMO, the American who takes the most risk is Earl. And being the perfectionist that he is, it is sometimes to his detriment when he destroys his mood after an execution below his expectations. That is his risk. Many Americans are not as risk-takers as the pinoys and it is not a bad thing. Conservative attitude on the table have won tournaments too, but are less exciting to watch.

 

[Celtic]

In the US the great players are spread out all over. I think i saw a post from John Schmidt that if all the Americans got together in one place for a month and gambled (small stakes) they'd be just as strong as the Filipinos (or somehting along those lines).

If you put all the Americans in the same room for a month they would not match up with each other anyhow, they would all sit there like a bunch of nits hoping some soft action would come through the door that they could chop up 50 ways. That is why the Americans are generally underdogs. They use to have the hear to actually match up and put it all on the line, not only their money but their pride at stake. Now they are scared to lose both so they don't play.

The American pro's end up in alot of places for a week at a time. Look at the DCC or the week of the BCA event in Las Vegas, the American pro's are there and they all hang out in their rooms ducking action while people like Alex are either on the pool table playing for cash or on the poker table loosing the cash he just won. The guy has more heart in his pinky finger then most of the Americans have in their whole body.

The top pros, like a Johnny Archer seem to act as if they are above gambling now, as if as a true pro they should just get paid for showing up. The thing that is laughable is that these guys are on a downhill slide and no longer dominate the game like they once did because they lost the edge that gambling gives you and the people they compete against keep that edge shard as a razor with their matching up and constant pressure play.