What or who is a flipper?

logical said:
Yes, it wasn't the math I was having trouble with. The seller wanted as much as they market would pay...it was an auction. So, if the flipper didn't exist, you are trying to say the seller isn't worse off?

Yes, the seller is better off if flippers exist!

"Flippers" have been around as long as auctions. It is clearly shady if they are getting on cue makers waiting lists just to resell cues, but when someone buys a cue at auction because they see it is undervalued, and resells it on the open market, that's simply capitalism. This is not unique to cues, the same happens with custom holster makers, knife makers and hundreds of other areas.

Yes, this occurs with other items!
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Flippers have every RIGHT to exist and do what they want! Please note, several post into this that was stated.

I stated that the flippers MOTIVE is unethical in my opinion! So far, no one has given an ulterior motive.

In my opinion, the flippers do more harm then good. The dealers benefit exclusively and flippers, because they are emotionally detached from the item. While, a collector looking for that missing part of their palmer collection or a semi-pro player looking for an equipment edge is not emotionally detached. This knowledge is why they enter the market and PREY on the cue buying public!!!



KD
 
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Is a flipper as bad as a ticket scalper?

I like Tate's definition.

My mom was an antiques flipper. She would be called a picker now. What she did was find antiques and jewelry and buy it at the best price she could and flip it to an antiques dealer for more than she paid. Sometimes a lot more sometimes a little more. Anytime a group is injecting money into a market it's probably better for the market to have that group actively moving product.

Prices will vary a lot because of the previously mentioned desire of flippers to keep chasing deals. I have seen cues practically given away by flippers.

Anytime you have a market you will have resellers trying to extract what the can from it. Just the way it is.



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This is not even a debate, it is just dumb. The original seller should just hold out for the top dollar if the cue is worth it. They don't because they want a quick sale. The flipper comes along and makes the investment and then puts it back on the market and gambles they can get close to what the cue is actually worth.

And this is wrong how? There is no false cue economy. If no buyer comes along then the flipper as they are being called, are stuck with the cue or must take a loss. I buy and sell all the time. I picked up 2 knives today at a garage sale for $1.00 a piece. They will easily bring on ebay over $60.00 based on past ebay history of these knives.

This is wrong? I bought them to make a profit, why, because it is fun. I don't need the money, I'm an old man with no kids I can't spend my money, but buying and selling is fun. Maybe these guys who are so upset with others getting good deals and reselling should try it themselves but just don't resell. You know why they don't, because you have to put your hand in your pocket. People only say wanted something after someone else has bought it.

You know I once bought a Balabushka (Still have it by the way), that was sitting in C.M. Lees cue case at his pool room for months. After I bought it all of a sudden everybody wanted it. If they wanted it so bad then why didn't they put their F'n hand in their pockets and buy it. I get tired of hearing from cheap jealous people.

By the way, I have no problem buying a cue from a flipper if I want the cue and I don't begrudge him making a buck one bit. He located, made the investment and now has it available for me to buy if we can meet on a price. More power to him.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
Not preying on people! But, you bid 300 on a gilbert break jump on eBay. A flipper wins it at 400. Only two bidders! Then a day later it is on azb wanted for sale at 450!!!

You now had the price run up 150 on you to buy the cue you SHOULD have got for 300 just so some smuck can make 50 bucks???

This is the best example of flippers harming collectors and players in search of a great player.

Kd

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no, you SHOULDN'T have gotten it for 300 cuz if the flipper sells it for 450 then that's probably what it's worth. or at least around that much. if that's the case it's your own fault for trying to get a 450 dollar cue for 300 and missing out on it. that's the risk you take when you try to pay less than what a cue is worth. on the other hand if it's not worth 450 then the flipper will lose money which is a risk they take. if they're willing to take the risk there should also be some sort of potential possibility for reward.

if we switch the situation, you seem to dislike flippers because they are driving prices up but why don't you hate guys like in the scenario you presented who drive prices down by trying to pay 300 dollars for a 450 dollar cue? that hurts all the people who paid gilbert full price for their jump breaks. you scenario is horrible as well as it's an auction with no set price. if someone is willing to pay more than you are in an auction how are they ruining the market? bid more if you are outbidded and you want to win.

it's ridiculous for you to even think that jbecause you are a collector or player, you are more entitled than a flipper to own/buy a cue for cheap. money is the distinction. the person who is most entitled to own a cue is the one who is willing to pay the most for it. the market does not ever provide alternate pricing based on someone's distinction as a player or flipper.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
i think you are miss understanding?

Lenny is a nice guy and my example and post was to illustrate how flippers HURT the market/consumer. in my example, the consumer tries to buy at 300 and gets into a bidding war with the flipper and loses at 400 then ends up buying at 450 from the same guy he lost to the very next day!!!!

The flipper cost him 150 to make 50 profit.

KD
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trying to win an auction with a low bid is different than a buy it now auction set at 300. there was no set price. and you cannot determine how much it would have gone for. if the flipper hadn't bid, someone else might have sniped it for 350, 375. 380 etc. you will never know. don't just assume that because the flipper shot in a bid of 400 and won, that there weren't other people looking to buy it. in this case, the guy who lost still had a chance to buy it while he might not have had that chance otherwise. also, a reserve price is not the same as a buy it now price. if the seller only wanted 300, he would have just set a buy it now price at 300 and not bothered with an auction. so it's pretty clear he wanted more than 300 a distinction that you for some reason cannot see.

of course this is all a moot point since it was an auction and there was no set price.

this is a bad example as well. if you're willing to pay 450 to the flipper to buy it why didnt you just try to win the auction anyways. the highest bid was only 400. so realistically the cue was worth more, but you tried to steal it for 300 and got mad that it didnt work. just because you couldnt get it on the cheap doesn't mean someone cost you money.

in a different scenario if i place an opening bid of 50 bucks and 10 guys get in on it and drive it up to 450. did those guys just cost me 400 dollars? no, i tried to buy low on it and failed, i should have bid more.

as for motive...the motive for a flipper is to make money. not inflict harm. it's ridiculous for you to even suggest that. but if you want to go that route, then i would argue that in your scenario the person who made the 300 dollar offer was also wishing to inflict harm to the seller by offering less than what the cue is worth and thus hurting the seller, the cuemaker by devaluing his cue, and those who currently own said cuemaker's cues by devaluing them. see how these imaginary leaps can be made if we're just basing everything on false motives?
 
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My mom was an antiques flipper. She would be called a picker now. What she did was find antiques and jewelry and buy it at the best price she could and flip it to an antiques dealer for more than she paid.
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When you bring Antiques into the equation, you quite often find people that know exactly what they are looking for, the actual resale value, and take advantage of people that don't know.
 
Blue Hog ridr said:
When you bring Antiques into the equation, you quite often find people that know exactly what they are looking for, the actual resale value, and take advantage of people that don't know.
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You think that the same thing doesn't happen in cues? My mother was definitely looking for people who didn't know what they had. Was she supposed to educate them?

Now it's different if they asked her for an appraisal that they would pay for. Then she would have been ethically obligated to educate them as to the amount that they could expect.

OR, they could have taken the time to take pictures of their dresser and researched it's history, and then shopped it around to several antique stores instead of putting it out in the driveway with $100 or best offer written on it. Not her job to tell them it's a $1200 piece of furniture.

Now, there is not any reason in the world for a buyer to get taken on a cue deal unless they think they have a too good to be true deal and they want to hide it from the rest of the world and act alone. Otherwise a real quick what's the worth thread or a few such PMs answers the question. I get case questions all the time and often I look at the listing and see that the case is not as described and I inform the person asking and often will inform the seller as well. Most of the time the seller will change the listing to be accurate as they were not intending to mislead anyone. And if they were they change it anyway because they know that it's been outed and being talked about.

With the opportunities to educate oneself these days there is no reason to be taken. If I am interested in an item one of the first things I do is go to ebay and see what the market there has - then amazon - then google.

For cues, azb is the primary source I think but there is facebook and other outlets one can ascertain a fair market value.

As for flippers charging a premium over that - well supply and demand comes into play here. Obviously the more limited an item is - assuming it is a quality item with a good reputation - the more desirable it is and the more it should fetch.

One thing I find funny is that some items are HYPED to the heavens that they "hold value over retail" and then when they are put up for sale the sell for less than retail, sometimes far less, the majority of the time. So just saying something is "collectible" and that it will appreciate in value doesn't make it true.
 
Kid Dynomite said:
We are talking about CUSTOM cues. Not production! Where do you get another Brazilian rosewood Gilbert jump break??? How long to get one made??? Gilbert stopped making them??? Switched joints from radial to quick release! These things happen or the blank was a old titlist. each Custom cue is rather Unigue! Find a 18 to 19 ounce southwest lately??? Pretty darn rare! People buy and want cues for various reasons and all cues have different selling points! Too hard to replicate with out great time and expense if even possible at all.

Kd

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Whats up with the hostility? Im not up on Gilbert cues but I have been thru my fair share of custom cues...and then some. $300 for any custom cue seems like a steal. Personally, if I knew any available cue would improve my game by a ball or two, I surely wouldn't think twice of spending $450 to get it. But that is the crux of that drives the market, a lot of people are trying to find the equipment that is going to make them instantly play a strong game....your mileage may vary.
 
Danktrees said:
trying to win an auction with a low bid is different than a buy it now auction set at 300. there was no set price. and you cannot determine how much it would have gone for. if the flipper hadn't bid, someone else might have sniped it for 350, 375. 380 etc. you will never know. don't just assume that because the flipper shot in a bid of 400 and won, that there weren't other people looking to buy it. in this case, the guy who lost still had a chance to buy it while he might not have had that chance otherwise. also, a reserve price is not the same as a buy it now price. if the seller only wanted 300, he would have just set a buy it now price at 300 and not bothered with an auction. so it's pretty clear he wanted more than 300 a distinction that you for some reason cannot see.

of course this is all a moot point since it was an auction and there was no set price.

this is a bad example as well. if you're willing to pay 450 to the flipper to buy it why didnt you just try to win the auction anyways. the highest bid was only 400. so realistically the cue was worth more, but you tried to steal it for 300 and got mad that it didnt work. just because you couldnt get it on the cheap doesn't mean someone cost you money.

in a different scenario if i place an opening bid of 50 bucks and 10 guys get in on it and drive it up to 450. did those guys just cost me 400 dollars? no, i tried to buy low on it and failed, i should have bid more.

as for motive...the motive for a flipper is to make money. not inflict harm. it's ridiculous for you to even suggest that. but if you want to go that route, then i would argue that in your scenario the person who made the 300 dollar offer was also wishing to inflict harm to the seller by offering less than what the cue is worth and thus hurting the seller, the cuemaker by devaluing his cue, and those who currently own said cuemaker's cues by devaluing them. see how these imaginary leaps can be made if we're just basing everything on false motives?
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First, Danktree this is a Hypothetical scenario to illustrate how they cause harm!!!

Second, the buyer is not trying to "SCREW" the seller.

Third, The buyer has infinite money in this scenario and buys the cue!!!

Fourth, Auctions have a time limit and when the clock goes off you could have just been out bid. You set a normal 100 above asking price bid limit to lose to someone coming over the top 10 seconds before end!!!

fifth, The next day the cue is FOR SALE on AZB for $450 and the buyer gets a second chance at the cue and buys it. Adding insult to injury, the flipper is smiling about bending the buyer over for a measly 50. WOW, the world is perverse.

Based, on this information please explain how the buyer is "DRIVING DOWN PRICES" ???

KD
 
Well let me ask this...

Do you feel that someone that was on a waiting list is entitled to immediately mark up a cue and put it back on market?

Aren't they automatically now, flippers?

I would say this... when Gus and George made cues, their were few circumstances when a guy would leave their shop with the "intent" on reselling the cue ASAP. NOW I think its 30/70. 30% chance the person is really appreciating the pride in ownership, and 70% chance that the second he can make a few hundred, its in a tube and on the way out of town.

JV
 
One last thing...

KD, this is not an easy market to sell cues in. I have been doing this since 95 and it went from great to mediocre to why the hell do I bother in the span of about 5 years.

Now also as a cue dealer, there is no sure thing, and don't think all cuemakers eat flowers and sh*t rainbows because as shown in AZB they can "flip" on the edge of a dime. There are risks involved when dealing with people, and dealers who take that risk should also be awarded the good times. I can tell you about 6-12 instances where we got shafted, some by well known cuemakers, and some not so well known, and to be honest, those guys, IMHO have zero integrity. In the future its will make an interesting thread because its coming. (For instance, my partner shook a guys hand and made a deal, only to have another "dealer" from over seas make a slightly better deal. End of the day, we were told that he couldn't do the deal with us. Well the only reason the other guy even looked at him, was because we left all the cues in his booth with our name on them as taken, and we had a deal in place)(One guy had cues, we took 6 cues at a show, offered to pay for them, he said don't worry about it, marked them as sold, then sold them again anyways)(worked with a cuemaker and developed his market, got him 30 orders deep after I did his website, after all the years of work and taking cues, our "deal" was renegotiated", at which point I stopped taking his cues.) So anyone who thinks that putting things in writing is not worth it, you're wrong, it is definitely worth it, because nothing separates friends, and deals quicker than money. Anyone who thinks that dealing, flipping, reselling is without hazard, better reconsider.

But not to sidetrack, the big difference in dealing cues, and then lets say cars, if you want a Z7, you have to go to a chevy dealer, you can't call GM. With cues, dealers can get bypassed, for waiting lists and you can get a cue direct. Dealers live with that and the buyers then b*tch that they can't get a cue in 6 months because a dealer may have some slots clogged. Well that is the way it is.

JV
 
classiccues said:
Well let me ask this...

Do you feel that someone that was on a waiting list is entitled to immediately mark up a cue and put it back on market?

No!!! It disrespects the cue maker IMO

Aren't they automatically now, flippers?

Depends on motive and scenario? Fall on hard times and sell for what it cost then NO! But, got on list to resell then YES!

I would say this... when Gus and George made cues, their were few circumstances when a guy would leave their shop with the "intent" on reselling the cue ASAP. NOW I think its 30/70. 30% chance the person is really appreciating the pride in ownership, and 70% chance that the second he can make a few hundred, its in a tube and on the way out of town.

JV
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So, true about GUS and George! But, during that time sales were more face to face transactions and done with a hand shake. Now, its all done over computer and phone and USPS with no face to face or hand shake. Plus, the buyer usually knew the cue maker VERY well and would not want to cheat him.

KD
 
I understand the laws of supply and demand and the impact on price. I believe in capitalism and have no problems with people who know how to buy low and sell high. I respect people who revitalize old equipment and make them useful for current players.

My disappointment is with flippers who speculate in the futures market. That group are all trying to figure out who will be the next Balabushka/Szamboti/Searing. Once the potential bandwagon is identified, the cuemaker's order books get filled. For those of us who don't recognize these cuemakers at such an early time, the only access we have to owning one of their cues is to pay twice what the speculators were able to get the cue for and we have to agree to whatever specs they ordered.

I am a player, not a collector or speculator. While I believe that the quality of cue making is at an all-time high, there are still only a very few number of cues that I want to own and play with. Just having a recognized name has not been sufficient. Buy the time I have had the chance to play with a cue from a particular cuemaker and find one that I want to order, the list is already filled up. I would be happy to wait 2-3 years and to pay the cuemaker his price for a cue of my specs. But those deals are not available to me. At this point in my life, I have the means and am not afraid to spend. But I am disappointed at having to pay $1K+ to be "friends" with someone who has access that I lack. I am also disappointed at the number of times I have been turned down to order a cue that I want to play with.

The market is what it is. I understand that. But I am still disappointed how the market developed and it's impact on my ability to buy the cues that I would liked to have owned.
 
classiccues said:
One last thing...

KD, this is not an easy market to sell cues in. I have been doing this since 95 and it went from great to mediocre to why the hell do I bother in the span of about 5 years.

Now also as a cue dealer, there is no sure thing, and don't think all cuemakers eat flowers and sh*t rainbows because as shown in AZB they can "flip" on the edge of a dime. There are risks involved when dealing with people, and dealers who take that risk should also be awarded the good times. I can tell you about 6-12 instances where we got shafted, some by well known cuemakers, and some not so well known, and to be honest, those guys, IMHO have zero integrity. In the future its will make an interesting thread because its coming. (For instance, my partner shook a guys hand and made a deal, only to have another "dealer" from over seas make a slightly better deal. End of the day, we were told that he couldn't do the deal with us. Well the only reason the other guy even looked at him, was because we left all the cues in his booth with our name on them as taken, and we had a deal in place)(One guy had cues, we took 6 cues at a show, offered to pay for them, he said don't worry about it, marked them as sold, then sold them again anyways)(worked with a cuemaker and developed his market, got him 30 orders deep after I did his website, after all the years of work and taking cues, our "deal" was renegotiated", at which point I stopped taking his cues.) So anyone who thinks that putting things in writing is not worth it, you're wrong, it is definitely worth it, because nothing separates friends, and deals quicker than money. Anyone who thinks that dealing, flipping, reselling is without hazard, better reconsider.

But not to sidetrack, the big difference in dealing cues, and then lets say cars, if you want a Z7, you have to go to a chevy dealer, you can't call GM. With cues, dealers can get bypassed, for waiting lists and you can get a cue direct. Dealers live with that and the buyers then b*tch that they can't get a cue in 6 months because a dealer may have some slots clogged. Well that is the way it is.

JV
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JV,

You are 100% correct about CUE MAKERS and CUE BUYERS!!!

Cue makers are cruddy when things go south to customers and I could only imagine what happens to the zinzola, wheat & etc. cue dealers of the world???

Consumers are no better sadly! Charge backs, tire kicking and BS to try different cues at the LEAST amount of expense is becoming more the norm!

I feel for cue dealers and it has to be a hard life. A ton of headache. To see some flipper pushing a 12 x 24 cue case down the aisle of an event you bought a booth at has to be AGGRAVATING.

Dealers help sellers often and EARN every dime via consignments and maintaining relationships. Dealers buy booth space and support cue makers and events and for that support of the sport I am grateful. Some industry members are NO give and all take. TO me that is what the FLIPPERS are "No give and all take"

KD
 
Kid Dynomite is not the only one to think flippers are immoral. I have had conversations with people where it became very obvious they were opposed to people who buy cheap only for immediate resale. The underlying immorality is the assumption that the flipper is taking advantage of both the seller and the buyer.

You can't judge people that way. That's like saying all politicians are crooks. People need to be individually judged. A friend of mine is a true flipper who is 100% moral on both sides of the equation. It's remarkable that he is successful. I admire that.
 
It's a delicate line between

Cue Collector
and
Cue Dealer
and
Flipper

but is clear when you are dealing with a true

Cue Pimp
 
TATE said:
The Cue Pimp has spoken!
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I tell all my cues they are my number #1 Lady Lifetime Player, that motivates them to EARN for the Cue Pimp.

Speaking of which, my Lifetime Number #1 (OBO) Lady Rambow will be walking the streets tonight.

Look for her. She is fine.
 
I can tell you another advantage of us evil flippers.

I ordered a cue from Showman, he screwed me over. After quoting a price he wanted to increase the price.

In the meantime, other cues were built ahead of mine. In the end, he never delivered the cue he promised. It wasn't until I got an attorney involved that I got my money back.

It takes a true low life, to quote a price and then hold the cue hostage until more money is sent. I had 20 folks PM me that this wasn't a isolated case, but the standard operation procedure for him.

This wasn't the case years ago, but we have had Varney, Wheat, Showman and Zinzola, and probably more that don't come to mind immediately.

Again, those no good cue flippers have to deal with that, and it isolates the buying public from some these losers.

Ken
 
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