What's Good About A Good Stroke?

Considering the fact I don't know a better part to hold the cue at... I better shrink my a**!

My Dishaw balances 5/8" above the wrap, I just measured it. Where would you be holding it? I'd guess you use a very short stroke?
 
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As our stroke gets more consistent and our "range of error" gets smaller, our subconscious steers our stroke less, allowing us to hit farther from centerball and get more draw more often. The smaller our "range of error" the closer our subconscious allows our stroke to come to where we think we're aiming.

pj
chgo[/SIZE]

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I think the subject of this post is how to manage to hit tip as low as possible, not how to stroke or draw back CB, to get tip to hit intended contact point at CB has nothing to do with stroke it is all mechanics of arms and as my previous post other factors mentioned, the ability to draw a ball is all stroke. Two different subject.

Here is why, if you hit CB as low as possible and hard with punch stroke you get minimal draw, do the same with nice smooth follow through you get action
 
...if you hit CB as low as possible and hard with punch stroke you get minimal draw, do the same with nice smooth follow through you get action
This is a common misperception. You "get action" by hitting the CB where you intend to hit it - follow through simply helps you do that. A shaft mounted in a spring-powered device that could hit the CB accurately with little or no follow through would produce exactly the same spin as one stroked by Mike Massey at the same speed.

Stroke quality is determined by accuracy and consistency, not by mystical secret ingredients. Blindly spreading this myth does a disservice to developing players.

pj
chgo
 
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Same hit/same speed can get different results. Depends on the elevation of the cue and grip hand pressure............and of course where the stick is pointing at contact.
Of course the angle of the cue matters, but I'm pretty sure grip pressure doesn't. Some players say they release the cue entirely just before contact with the CB and report good results.

pj
chgo
 
What's good about a good stroke?
A "good stroke" is consistent, accurate, and repeatable, with both tip contact point and cue speed.

Now, there are several attributes that generally contribute to a "good stroke" (see stroke 'best practices' and technique advice), but these certainly are not necessary for a "good stroke."

Concerning draw shots, there can be many reasons why a person might not be consistent or successful. They are summarized and demonstrated here:

Good thread,
Dave
 
Two people can shoot the same shot, using the same cue stick, hitting the cueball at the same point and at the same speed, and can get two different outcomes. The difference is in the quality of the stroke.
I know many people think this, but it just isn't true.

Tom Ross, my partner on the VEPS series, used to think this too. In fact, we had a big argument about it one day. He thought the "type of stroke" (or "stroke quality") made a difference on a particular shot he was demonstrating to me. He was totally convinced he was using the same speed and tip position with both stroke types, and yet he was getting two totally different results (which he could replicate consistently with his two "stroke types"). After using a Jim Rempe ball (with chalk mark evidence) and my high-speed video camera, I finally convinced him that the two stroke "types" were creating different "hits" on the CB. On one of the strokes, he was dropping his elbow a little more creating a higher tip position even though we was sure he was not. For more info, see Tom Ross' April '08 and August '08 BD articles.

Technique is important to create the desired cue speed, tip contact point, and cue angle; and if you change your technique, it will affect the outcome of the shot, but only if the cue speed, tip contact point, and/or cue angle are different as a result of the technique changes.

FYI, for more information on why grip, stroke acceleration, and follow through have no direct effect on the action of the CB, see the following:

Regards,
Dave
 
Here is some help on developing a great stroke
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-Wkh9m59lk&list=UUFpnR3gqgCGaIGbLhvcAQmA&index=1&feature=plcp

And some help with your draw if you need it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1-HM1bLXog&list=UUFpnR3gqgCGaIGbLhvcAQmA&index=2&feature=plcp

Hope it helps someone who could use it.

Max Eberle
Great clear tips, Max. I admire your practical, no-magic approach to learning the game.

Do you have a website where your instructional vids are offered?

pj
chgo
 
Timing

Masayoshi:
I define timing as coordinating your arm to move as quickly at impact as required with as little effort as possible.
Is good timing best achieved with a smooth, gradually accelerating stroke?

Does timing affect tip/CB accuracy or only speed control?

How can timing be improved?

pj
chgo
 
I know many people think this, but it just isn't true.

Technique is important to create the desired cue speed, tip contact point, and cue angle; and if you change your technique, it will affect the outcome of the shot, but only if the cue speed, tip contact point, and/or cue angle are different as a result of the technique changes.

Regards,
Dave

In the post you responded to, I mentioned same speed, contact point and cue stick. I didn't mention cue angle. That right there wil give different results, which looks like you agree with.
 
My Dishaw balances 5/8" above the wrap, I just measured it. Where would you be holding it? I'd guess you use a very short stroke?

Depends on the shape of the cue. However, the range of my stroke never suffers because of the part where I'm holding it. I only play in bars where I encounter all types, shapes and sizes of cues (mostly low quality ones). Whenever I see a new cue I want to use, I always "test" it before switching to it. First I find its balance point. Then I grab it and swing it a few times in the air to test its weight and balance. Finally, I perform a few shots and in case I'm satisfied, that cue shall have the honor to be my weapon for the match :smile:

The qualities of cues that I appreciate are following:

1. Lenght - I generally prefer longer cues. Short ones have bad balace, they're difficult for aiming and breaking, and I make mistakes while shooting a lot more often (mostly when I shoot at high speed).

2. Weight - I like heavier cues, but not too heavy, as I need good mobility for strokes. Nevertheless, with heavier cues I have less oscillations while aiming, more power when I blast off, less shooting mistakes ("skidding" of the CB etc.), and they simply "feel better" in my arm.

3. Shape - I hate cues with a much wider shaft comparing to the rest of the cuestick. I mean, in bars they often put cues with a wide rubber shaft which totally ruins their balance and makes them harder to aim :mad:

4. Material - This is mostly connected to the weight issue. I prefer wooden/plastic or plastic/metal combination or at least heavier wooden cues. Most wooden cues are too light, while the completely metal ones feel just too heavy and unbalanced. Also, the surface of the cue needs to be smooth, which isn't always the case.

5. Tip - Definitely softer tips. I just don't see what kind of advantage harder tips could possibly have. Sometimes it feels like you hit the cue ball with a rock. Try to shoot a little stronger, and half of the shots will skid. Also, giving spin to the CB is awful with harder tips. There's one more upside of the softer ones. In bars chalk is often... well... missing. Softer tips are much more reliable when shooting with a limited amount of chalk on them.
 
To listen to crickets.

Happy now?
Sorry, Thaig'... I just noticed that earlier thread was your attempt to talk about timing. My bad.

I hope we can generate some conversation about it, but I think you and KM are right about it being a slippery subject. Personally, I think it probably just means "smoothly accelerating to the intended speed".

pj
chgo
 
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Depends on the shape of the cue. However, the range of my stroke never suffers because of the part where I'm holding it. I only play in bars where I encounter all types, shapes and sizes of cues (mostly low quality ones). Whenever I see a new cue I want to use, I always "test" it before switching to it. First I find its balance point. Then I grab it and swing it a few times in the air to test its weight and balance. Finally, I perform a few shots and in case I'm satisfied, that cue shall have the honor to be my weapon for the match :smile:

The qualities of cues that I appreciate are following:

1. Lenght - I generally prefer longer cues. Short ones have bad balace, they're difficult for aiming and breaking, and I make mistakes while shooting a lot more often (mostly when I shoot at high speed).

2. Weight - I like heavier cues, but not too heavy, as I need good mobility for strokes. Nevertheless, with heavier cues I have less oscillations while aiming, more power when I blast off, less shooting mistakes ("skidding" of the CB etc.), and they simply "feel better" in my arm.

3. Shape - I hate cues with a much wider shaft comparing to the rest of the cuestick. I mean, in bars they often put cues with a wide rubber shaft which totally ruins their balance and makes them harder to aim :mad:

4. Material - This is mostly connected to the weight issue. I prefer wooden/plastic or plastic/metal combination or at least heavier wooden cues. Most wooden cues are too light, while the completely metal ones feel just too heavy and unbalanced. Also, the surface of the cue needs to be smooth, which isn't always the case.

5. Tip - Definitely softer tips. I just don't see what kind of advantage harder tips could possibly have. Sometimes it feels like you hit the cue ball with a rock. Try to shoot a little stronger, and half of the shots will skid. Also, giving spin to the CB is awful with harder tips. There's one more upside of the softer ones. In bars chalk is often... well... missing. Softer tips are much more reliable when shooting with a limited amount of chalk on them.

I'm sorry, I don't get it. Do you have your own cue or do you play off the wall? I don't understand the "wider shaft"? And, a "rubber shaft"? I may be missing in the translation, I just don't understand a lot of what you're saying and I'm trying to get where you're coming from in relation to the topic of stroke. Softer tips to me are like playing with a marshmallow. I've used hard tips for years because of the feel and they last longer.
 
Two people can shoot the same shot, using the same cue stick, hitting the cueball at the same point and at the same speed, and can get two different outcomes. The difference is in the quality of the stroke.
I know many people think this, but it just isn't true.

Tom Ross, my partner on the VEPS series, used to think this too. In fact, we had a big argument about it one day. He thought the "type of stroke" (or "stroke quality") made a difference on a particular shot he was demonstrating to me. He was totally convinced he was using the same speed and tip position with both stroke types, and yet he was getting two totally different results (which he could replicate consistently with his two "stroke types"). After using a Jim Rempe ball (with chalk mark evidence) and my high-speed video camera, I finally convinced him that the two stroke "types" were creating different "hits" on the CB. On one of the strokes, he was dropping his elbow a little more creating a higher tip position even though we was sure he was not. For more info, see Tom Ross' April '08 and August '08 BD articles.

Technique is important to create the desired cue speed, tip contact point, and cue angle; and if you change your technique, it will affect the outcome of the shot, but only if the cue speed, tip contact point, and/or cue angle are different as a result of the technique changes.

FYI, for more information on why grip, stroke acceleration, and follow through have no direct effect on the action of the CB, see the following:
In the post you responded to, I mentioned same speed, contact point and cue stick. I didn't mention cue angle. That right there will give different results, which looks like you agree with.
Agreed. If the angle of the cue is different in the strokes you are comparing, the results of the shot will be different. However, the stroke "type" or "quality" have absolutely no effect if everything else (tip contact point, cue speed, cue angle) is the same at impact with the ball.

Regards,
Dave
 
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