What's Good About A Good Stroke?
- Thread starter Patrick Johnson
- Start date
Thanks Max. That's an excellent explanation and demonstration of a well-executed elbow-drop "piston" stroke. FYI, I just added the following to my elbow-drop resource page:
Here's a video by Max Elberle that demonstrates a well-executed elbow-drop "piston" stroke. As Max points out, the key is to not drop the elbow and hand before contact with the CB; otherwise, the cue tip will hit the CB higher than you might think it will.
Regards,
Dave
Just tell me what parts you don't understand and I'll do my best to clarify it to you. I don't have my own cue, I always play with bar cues. I'd show you a picture of the type of cue I'm talking about (the one with "rubber shaft"), but I couldn't find any. To me softer tips are excellent, you have a feeling they "stick" to the CB, no matter how hard you shoot. It's true they don't last as lond, but it's a small sacrifice comparing to their performance. If you think this is off-topic, I can start a new thread about cue characteristics...
OK, for now, I'm going to still disagree with you. I think there are stroke dynamics that you, Tom Ross and others don't know about. Either that or I'm not understanding how a slight stroke adjustment could be changing speed, point of contact, cue angle (like you mentioned with Tom Ross). But, I really doubt it.
Still, I appreciate you looking for higher truth on this matter.
Well yeah, same speed same contact point on whitey didn't read his prior thread so oops, but if Earl Strickland is swingin' his, What, 68'' cue and hits it with 12 o'clock high at 8 mph, a 57'' cue struck with the same speed and cue position, will apply the exact same follow amount, that's interesting. I would of never thought that.
And in a joking way....
Kinda like a train hittin a Hyundai at 5 mph, or a semi hittin another one at the same speed. Think I'd rather get hit by the semi.
"All things being equal" would have to include the weight of the stick, of course, because a heavier stick moving at the same speed will propel the cue ball faster. Since we're comparing strokes, not sticks, it isn't really necessary to specify this, but it's technically true.Well yeah, same speed same contact point on whitey didn't read his prior thread so oops, but if Earl Strickland is swingin' his, What, 68'' cue and hits it with 12 o'clock high at 8 mph, a 57'' cue struck with the same speed and cue position, will apply the exact same follow amount, that's interesting. I would of never thought that.
And in a joking way....
Kinda like a train hittin a Hyundai at 5 mph, or a semi hittin another one at the same speed. Think I'd rather get hit by the semi
But, by the way, the results are also the same if the same amount of force is applied to different weight sticks - the heavier stick will move a little slower, the lighter one will move a little faster, and they'll both propel the cue ball at the same speed.
pj
chgo
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As Pat said, that's an unwarranted extension. Earl's cue, a jump stick, a break stick, a straight-rail cue, a masse cue, a snooker cue, a Russian pyramid cue, a cue with an ivory ferrule, a cue with no ferrule will each get a different result even if they strike the cue ball at the same point with the same speed and attitude. Some of them may get very similar results, such as Earl's cue and a pyramid cue.
Timing is one of those things you have to develop through personal experimentation. Different approaches to timing will work for different people. All you can do is try different timings and use what works. From my personal observations, most people, especially weaker players, can improve their timing by slowing their backswing and starting their forward swing slower. Some people like to add a pause in the back swing and it often works, but the pause never really helped me in my experiences.
Getting people to think about what is going on back there and be more deliberate rather than just setting up and swinging away is the main point.
Timing can be taught, but I think its better to use a "Try this out and see if it works" teaching method rather than a "This is how you do it" method. Although "This is how you do it is" much more forum friendly.
Good timing improves both accuracy and speed control, but mostly accuracy. Speed control has more factors than just cue speed.
If you can hit a ball harder with less effort (better timing), you will be more accurate than if you had used more muscle at the same speed. Extremely slow speeds might be an exception to that, but if that's the case, it might be beneficial to work on different timings for different speeds.
I would also like to add that different timings can have very slight variations in cue elevation just due to your arm not being made out of steel and bolted to the ground. This can have significant effects over long distances in terms of curve and jump resulting in timings that effectively have less curve or jump than others resulting in more accuracy even if you hit the intended point on the cue ball.
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All good questions.
1.) I think that good timing may be easiest achieved with a smooth, gradually accelerating stroke, however, it can also be achieved with more difficulty with other stroke types.
2.) I don't know if timing affects tip accuracy. I have noticed a correlation between bad timing and inaccurate tip placement on the cb, however, I don't know if they're just both independently a reflection of lower skill, or if they're interdependent.
3.) In order to improve one's timing, I think the player must experiment. I think the process would be easier with a competent teacher or coach to help guide them through the process.
Maybe this is a stupid question, but I don't know what "Poolkillers" are. If that comment about arguing was directed to me, I need to say I wasn't arguing with anyone :/
Hi Patrick, thanks. Yes there should be a link in my signature to propoolacademy.com You can get a lot of free instructional files including a free membership. Thanks for checking it out. Max
Thanks Dave. I'll check out your resource page, sounds cool. Max
I would also like to point out that "timing" can also affect your set up, which in turn, could alter your final set up and the accuracy with which you will deliver your final stroke.
My experience has been that a persons body needs time to unfold, if you will, to get all the components in their favored locations, angles, and elevation. Too fast and your body parts don't have time to get to their assigned positions. Too slow (like when you're trying to be extra careful and then blow the hanger) and you can easily over shoot your set up.
Carry on.
Lou Figueroa
"Timing" is most certainly related to tip placement accuracy for people who drop their elbow after CB contact (during the follow through). If the elbow is dropped a little early by accident (due to poor "timing") the tip will hit the CB higher than might be expected. I'm not saying elbow drop is necessarily a bad thing, because many top players can do it quite effectively; however, it does require consistent and accurate "timing" (which top players have).
Regards,
Dave
A good comparative, the taper of a snooker cue causing the tip to rise as it strikes whitey mimicks in small motions the elbow drop. But as we know, small motion changes transposed to a cue ball create Huge differeces. Its one of the reasons the public lacks interest in our game, they can't see or understand the differences.
Good point. I think that would be a timing issue. In contrast, I think what wouldn't be a timing issue, for example, is someone with a steering problem who twists their hand during their stroke, which is just an error in execution.
Have you read some of the recent threads that describe "stroke swoop" and "wrist twist" as "advanced techniques" that we can learn from the pros? Check out my video on this topic:
With good "timing," these techniques can be effective, but I still don't think they are the best approaches for most people, based on the info on my stroke swoop resource page.
Regards,
Dave
Yes, I'm familiar with that. I was taught the swooping technique in the mid 80s. It was a very popular technique back then. However, swooping and steering are two different things. One is intentional.