What's Good About A Good Stroke?

Push&Pool said:
....
2. Grab the cue at the center of balance
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Maybe you don't mean the balance point of the cue -- where you can balance it horizontally on top of one finger. If you do mean that, this may be something you need to change to play better. To the best of my knowledge, no good player holds the cue stick at the balance point except maybe on very rare and special shots.
 
Experiments have shown that the "smoothness" of a stroke doesn't affect the spin on the cueball in any significant way. Yet many people claim that they can hear whether or not the player has hit the cueball well when playing a drawshot. There seems to be a difference between wacking the cueball and stroking it. The distinctive sound is probably the result of the cue actually hitting the cueball at the lowest possible point without miscueing, because there the cueball is thinner than in the center.
 
I think it comes down to good timing. I like what Harvey Penick wrote about the timing of a golf swing:

"Timing is getting your muscles together to produce the maximum speed of the clubhead at impact and the angle of the face square on the line to the target."

He also wrote:

"There are plenty of good players who jump around during their swings, but meet the ball on the clubface at the right instant and get excellent results beause of their timing."

Lastly, he wrote:

"The last player I wanted on my golf team was one who had to look good and have the prettiest swing without getting comparable results. Too often this player is satisfied with hitting stylish shots. Give me the player who is more concerned with putting the ball in the hole in fewer strokes."
 
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sjm said:
... So, as far as draw goes, I would define a good stroke is one that does not break down even when more and more velocity is added to the cue ball.
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I think this idea can be extended to all kinds of shots and is related to a player's comfort zone or you might call it "region of competence". You often see a player have stroke problems when the shot at hand is not one they feel they can do. From this viewpoint, different players will have larger or smaller regions of the game where they have a good stroke. It is not always power that bounds the region. Some players will break down at the low end when trying soft safeties for example. They do not know how to move their arms in that situation.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I think this idea can be extended to all kinds of shots and is related to a player's comfort zone or you might call it "region of competence". You often see a player have stroke problems when the shot at hand is not one they feel they can do. From this viewpoint, different players will have larger or smaller regions of the game where they have a good stroke. It is not always power that bounds the region. Some players will break down at the low end when trying soft safeties for example. They do not know how to move their arms in that situation.
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Right on, Bob. Although I think we are saying essentially the same thing, this is a far more comprehensive, and ultimately better, way of defining a good stroke than mine. The term "region of competence" is not one I've encountered bfore, but it's a term I'll use in the future.
 
bbb said:
one thing thats a give away in judging someones speed to me is if they can generate alot of spin (when necessary) and seem to hit the cue ball softly or with little effort thats a sign of a good stroke and an experienced upper level playericbw
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Bingo. A good stroke gives maximum results from minimum effort.

Two people can shoot the same shot, using the same cue stick, hitting the cueball at the same point and at the same speed, and can get two different outcomes. The difference is in the quality of the stroke.

A couple of years ago I got roughed up by some "scientists" on a stroke analysis thread. I'm still kind of bitter about it. Fortunately, a "player" (Bill Smith) agreed with me.

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=199544&highlight=Surfer&page=4
 
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8ballEinstein said:
Bingo. A good stroke gives maximum results from minimum effort.

Two people can shoot the same shot, using the same cue stick, hitting the cueball at the same point and at the same speed, and can get two different outcomes. The difference is in the quality of the stroke.
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Can you explain what you mean by quality?
 
Bob Jewett said:
Maybe you don't mean the balance point of the cue -- where you can balance it horizontally on top of one finger. If you do mean that, this may be something you need to change to play better. To the best of my knowledge, no good player holds the cue stick at the balance point except maybe on very rare and special shots.
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Yeah that's what I meant sorry for bad description. OK I don't really hold it EXACTLY at the balance point, I actually grab it a little above (or below, depending how you look at it xD), but never at the end.
 
Push&Pool...Unless you're 4 feet tall, you're holding your cue in the wrong place. That doesn't mean you cannot play well...it just means you're doing something that causes inefficiency and inaccuracy for almost anyone.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Push&Pool said:
Yeah that's what I meant sorry for bad description. OK I don't really hold it EXACTLY at the balance point, I actually grab it a little above (or below, depending how you look at it xD), but never at the end.
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Scott Lee said:
Push&Pool...Unless you're 4 feet tall, you're holding your cue in the wrong place. That doesn't mean you cannot play well...it just means you're doing something that causes inefficiency and inaccuracy for almost anyone.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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Considering the fact I don't know a better part to hold the cue at... I better shrink my a**!
 
sjm said:
Disagree. That's not, in my opinion, the starting point. I'd say hitting that point at a low speed and hitting it at a high speed are two different challenges and there are many that can do the former consistently but not the latter.

Hitting that point consistently at high speeds is something that only the very elite ever achieve in a lifetime and is not a prerequisite for attaining a very high level of play.
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That is not true, you will hit same tip contact point every time if it was the last thing you are looking at on your last forward stroke after the pause. What helps to keep focus on it is to pull very very slow that will give time to your brain to focus on the point, if you pull fast you will not be able to focus and will miss the spot
 
naji said:
...you will hit same tip contact point every time if it was the last thing you are looking at on your last forward stroke after the pause.
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This is not the case for lots of beginner-to-intermediate players. I've coached players who couldn't hit above or below the CB's "equator" with any consistency, even when looking at the cue ball as they hit it.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
This is not the case for lots of beginner-to-intermediate players. I've coached players who couldn't hit above or below the CB's "equator" with any consistency, even when looking at the cue ball as they hit it.

pj
chgo
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59amcNEN0Tg
i think we may be discussing 2 things without realizing it
if you could do this i consider that a "good stroke"
in responce to scott lee
to the video i posted
i did not look at his mechanics only the juice he could get on the ball
it may not be a pendulum stroke but i cant do that with my cue ball:embarrassed2:
 
bbb said:
[video of Mike Massey's 2-table-length draw shot]
if you could do this i consider that a "good stroke"
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I agree, and it proves my point, although you can't tell by looking at the video. Massey's "secret" is that he has a very small "range of error" even when he strokes very hard - so he can hit the cue ball very low and very hard, on demand. No tricks, gimmicks or "secrets".

You and I can do it too if we give ourselves enough tries. Just not on demand like Massey can (and not without scooping the cue ball through the window several times first).

pj
chgo
 
A good stroke is a stroke that has good timing and accuracy. I define timing as coordinating your arm to move as quickly at impact as required with as little effort as possible.

The reason it seems like pros can get a lot more juice with a softer hit is not because they are actually hitting softer, but that there is less wasted effort in their movements, so they attain the required speed easier, with greater accuracy, and more efficiency.
 
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