What's the call?

[bobt3719]

The game is 10 ball under standardize rules.

Player A next shot is the 6 ball. The 10 ball is hanging out by the corner pocket. Player A calls the 10 ball. He makes the 6 in the called pocket but misses the 10 ball.
Player B says Player A missed the called shot it is my turn. Both players did not the rules in this area. After a short discussion both players agreed it was Player B shot. The reasoning being simply the called shot was missed. I'm not so sure it was the right call ...
Player A intended shot was the 6 ball in the corner the natural cue ball path after the shot was the pocket the 10 ball was hanging out at. If he did not call the 10 ball he might have ran out.
What do you think, what's the correct call?

 

[barking]

do you have to call anything? if he made the 6 he still shoots doesnt he?

 

[brechbt]

10-B is now a call-shot game under BCAPL rules. You can only call one ball/pocket shot. The original decision described by the OP is correct.

 

[victorl]

Under the standardized WPA rules, player B has the option to shoot or give the shot back to player A since the called ball was missed and an uncalled ball was made.

 

[MahnaMahna]

Under the standardized WPA rules, player B has the option to shoot or give the shot back to player A since the called ball was missed and an uncalled ball was made.

This is correct.

You can only call one shot, and the shooter called the 10, which he missed, so he loses control.

 

[subdude1974]

If he called the 6, made it and then the 10, wouldn't he have won the game? Or not?i mainly play 1 pocket so I am unsure.

 

[Drew]

If he called the 6, made it and then the 10, wouldn't he have won the game? Or not?i mainly play 1 pocket so I am unsure.

No...only one shot at a time. You can call either the 6 or the 10. 10 spots and he keeps shooting.

 

[3andstop]

Being mostly a straight pool player, I was under the impression 10 ball was a called ball game. So, obviously if he called the 10 and made the 6 he missed his called shot.

Can someone take a second and explain the point of player B having an option to shoot or give the table back to player A who simply missed his shot.

What the heck does inadvertently pocketing a ball have to do with anything besides the incoming player shooting.

So, if I call safe in 10 ball and pocket a ball, the opponent has a choice to shoot or make me shoot again????????? No.... can't be, can it? :scratchhead:

If it is would someone explain the logic here. In straight pool pocketing a ball and calling safe is a common play, I see no reason it should be some kind of penalty for the person playing safe.

I may have this all wrong anyway.

 

[victorl]

3andstop, you've got it right. I think the original intention of the option was to punish players for slopping balls in, but the option was extended to include balls pocketed on safeties (whether intentional or not) for some reason. So no, you can't pocket a ball and play safe as in other games, which I agree is kind of silly but them's the rules.

 

[Drew]

Being mostly a straight pool player, I was under the impression 10 ball was a called ball game. So, obviously if he called the 10 and made the 6 he missed his called shot.

Can someone take a second and explain the point of player B having an option to shoot or give the table back to player A who simply missed his shot.

What the heck does inadvertently pocketing a ball have to do with anything besides the incoming player shooting.

So, if I call safe in 10 ball and pocket a ball, the opponent has a choice to shoot or make me shoot again????????? No.... can't be, can it? :scratchhead:

If it is would someone explain the logic here. In straight pool pocketing a ball and calling safe is a common play, I see no reason it should be some kind of penalty for the person playing safe.

I may have this all wrong anyway.

The option has nothing to do with punishing anyone. Supposedly, it's to help out with the unintended safety, which doesn't show up in 14.1 since you can shoot at whichever ball you choose.

Problem is the unintended safety when a ball is not pocketed. Incoming player does not get an option...and this is what makes 10 ball such a BS game.

 

[JasBy]

The rule is intended to stop the 'two-way shot' in which you usually try a low percentage shot secure in the knowledge that if you miss, your opponent won't have a shot at the same ball. It had turned into a love/hate thing - mostly hate

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Wow, the answers here are all over the place.

Under standardized rules (WPA, BCA) the ruling is the player did not make the called shot so it is a miss. The 6 ball stays down. HOWEVER, under rule 9.7 since the shooter wrongfully pocketed a ball on the miss the incoming player has the option of taking the balls in position or passing it back to the original shooter. Either player would now be shooting at the next lowest ball on the table.

That's the rule.

--------------------

Being mostly a straight pool player, I was under the impression 10 ball was a called ball game. So, obviously if he called the 10 and made the 6 he missed his called shot.

Can someone take a second and explain the point of player B having an option to shoot or give the table back to player A who simply missed his shot.

What the heck does inadvertently pocketing a ball have to do with anything besides the incoming player shooting.

So, if I call safe in 10 ball and pocket a ball, the opponent has a choice to shoot or make me shoot again????????? No.... can't be, can it? :scratchhead:

If it is would someone explain the logic here. In straight pool pocketing a ball and calling safe is a common play, I see no reason it should be some kind of penalty for the person playing safe.

I may have this all wrong anyway.

You are correct, that can't be it. If you call a safety, the incoming player has to take the balls in position in 10 Ball. The exception to this is if he wrongfully pockets a ball. This is where it is different than 14.1. In 10 Ball you cannot call a safety, pocket a ball, and force your opponent to take the table.

The reason the incoming player has the option in this situation is because he wrongfully pocketed a ball. Had the player simply missed and nothing went down, then the incoming player would have to take the table as is whether he called a safety or simply missed a shot (under World Standardized Rules). This is where it is odd in 10 Ball - there really is no reason to call safety. It is really just a courtesy to your opponent so that if the ball you are shooting at goes somewhere you have informed him in advance that it wasn't intended.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

The rule is intended to stop the 'two-way shot' in which you usually try a low percentage shot secure in the knowledge that if you miss, your opponent won't have a shot at the same ball. It had turned into a love/hate thing - mostly hate

Two-way shots aren't affected by this rule. I think (though I've always wondered if this is right) the rule is meant to stop calling a safety and pocketing the ball on, because it's often too easy that way.

pj
chgo

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Two-way shots aren't affected by this rule. I think (though I've always wondered if this is right) the rule is meant to stop calling a safety and pocketing the ball on, because it's often too easy that way.

pj
chgo

Of course you are correct PJ, the two-way shot/safety is alive and well under WSR's (as long as no balls falls), although 10 Ball rules do eliminate the other kind of 2 way shot - the one where you pocket the 6 ball while also taking a free roll at the money ball hanging in the corner pocket.

Of course, some do want to do away with the two-way shot (shot/safety) altogether. The ABP, for example prefers the incoming player have the option on ANY miss (whether a ball falls or not). The recent SBE was played this way as are the Robles/Predator events back East.

 

[3andstop]

Wow, the answers here are all over the place.

Under standardized rules (WPA, BCA) the ruling is the player did not make the called shot so it is a miss. The 6 ball stays down. HOWEVER, under rule 9.7 since the shooter wrongfully pocketed a ball on the miss the incoming player has the option of taking the balls in position or passing it back to the original shooter. Either player would now be shooting at the next lowest ball on the table.

That's the rule.

--------------------


You are correct, that can't be it. If you call a safety, the incoming player has to take the balls in position in 10 Ball. The exception to this is if he wrongfully pockets a ball. This is where it is different than 14.1. In 10 Ball you cannot call a safety, pocket a ball, and force your opponent to take the table.

The reason the incoming player has the option in this situation is because he wrongfully pocketed a ball. Had the player simply missed and nothing went down, then the incoming player would have to take the table as is whether he called a safety or simply missed a shot (under World Standardized Rules). This is where it is odd in 10 Ball - there really is no reason to call safety. It is really just a courtesy to your opponent so that if the ball you are shooting at goes somewhere you have informed him in advance that it wasn't intended.

I appreciate the explanation. Guess my old school head just can't grasp the concept. Now... lets say it's my turn and I call and pocket the 3 ball. The cue ball goes around the table and sinks the 5 ball. Does this come up after my inning? I mean by the rule makers logic this was an improperly pocketed ball.

On a safety, while shooting at the correct ball in sequence, I sure don't get the logic on how the rule could allow for ANYTHING more than simply spotting that ball.

Oh well, I'm no fan of rotation games anyway, but some of the morphing of rules sometimes makes no sense to me.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

I appreciate the explanation. Guess my old school head just can't grasp the concept. Now... lets say it's my turn and I call and pocket the 3 ball. The cue ball goes around the table and sinks the 5 ball. Does this come up after my inning? I mean by the rule makers logic this was an improperly pocketed ball.

On a safety, while shooting at the correct ball in sequence, I sure don't get the logic on how the rule could allow for ANYTHING more than simply spotting that ball.

Oh well, I'm no fan of rotation games anyway, but some of the morphing of rules sometimes makes no sense to me.

In your first question, were the CB goes around and also sinks the 5, this is not an improperly (or "wrongfully") pocketed ball because you made your called shot. The thing that makes for an wrongfully pocketed ball is not making the called shot. It's not really about fouling. If a ball falls on an illegal shot (like a bad hit) the penalty is BIH to your opponent (though I suppose the opponent could still pass it back, but this would be rare).

As for the second part, I hear you. All I can say in response is that this is the way the rules are. Like I said, I really can't think of a reason calling a safety is necessary under the rules, except as a courtesy to your opponent so there is no argument if a ball falls on the shot.

 

[bobt3719]

Thanks for the many replies but let me clear something up. Here is the intent on Player A. He did not verbally call the 6ball but that was the shot. Seeing that that the natural path was to bring the cue ball back to the pocket the 10 ball was hanging out by Player A would be pretty stupid not the call the 10 for the win.
Maybe the player intent does not matter i understand that. I also understand calling two shots on one stroke. This is 10 ball where making the 10 wins it ...

 

[JC]

Thanks for the many replies but let me clear something up. Here is the intent on Player A. He did not verbally call the 6ball but that was the shot. Seeing that that the natural path was to bring the cue ball back to the pocket the 10 ball was hanging out by Player A would be pretty stupid not the call the 10 for the win.
Maybe the player intent does not matter i understand that. I also understand calling two shots on one stroke. This is 10 ball where making the 10 wins it ...

Player A had to make a decision which ball to call. If he wanted to make the six ball and continue shooting he could have altered the cue ball's path to leave the ten ball by the pocket and run out if the other balls were open. In this case since the six was obvious he needed to call nothing, just shoot in the six. He obviously thought he could make a carom on the ten though or he wouldn't have called it. The six ball going in was just incidental to the missed ten ball which then invoked the rule of improperly pocketed ball. The whole improperly made ball rule was simply to prevent the safety where you pocket a ball at one end of the table and leave the cue ball right there because the next ball in progression is buried somewhere. In nine ball you can't do this because if you make the ball it's your shot and you must then deal with the next unhitable ball yourself. Once you play the game for a while and understand the logic you realize there is no other way this game can be fairly played call pocket without that provision. It makes perfect sense. I am a ten ball lover. It makes nine ball seem silly.

 

[DogsPlayingPool]

Thanks for the many replies but let me clear something up. Here is the intent on Player A. He did not verbally call the 6ball but that was the shot. Seeing that that the natural path was to bring the cue ball back to the pocket the 10 ball was hanging out by Player A would be pretty stupid not the call the 10 for the win.
Maybe the player intent does not matter i understand that. I also understand calling two shots on one stroke. This is 10 ball where making the 10 wins it ...

bobcat, not sure you cleared anything up. In your OP you said he called the 10 Ball, and in fact he apparently agreed he did because he turned over the table since he missed pocketing the 10 ball.

The players intent does matter; in fact it is everything because it is a call shot game. In 9 Ball intent in this situation doesn't matter because it is not call shot. He made a legal hit on the lowest numbered ball and pocketed a ball - doesn't matter that he intended to make the money ball.

In any event I see what you are saying. He intended to make the 6 as part of the shot in which he called the 10. That's fine, but the "intended shot" from the standpoint of applying the rules is the call on the 10 ball, not the fact that he was trying to make the 6 also.

So in a nut shell, you guys handled it correctly except keep in mind that incoming player B had the option of giving back the table because a ball was wrongfully pocketed. Player B gets the table but he did not have to take it if he chose not to.

 

[bobt3719]

Player A had to make a decision which ball to call. If he wanted to make the six ball and continue shooting he could have altered the cue ball's path to leave the ten ball by the pocket and run out if the other balls were open. In this case since the six was obvious he needed to call nothing, just shoot in the six. He obviously thought he could make a carom on the ten though or he wouldn't have called it. The six ball going in was just incidental to the missed ten ball which then invoked the rule of improperly pocketed ball. The whole improperly made ball rule was simply to prevent the safety where you pocket a ball at one end of the table and leave the cue ball right there because the next ball in progression is buried somewhere. In nine ball you can't do this because if you make the ball it's your shot and you must then deal with the next unhitable ball yourself. Once you play the game for a while and understand the logic you realize there is no other way this game can be fairly played call pocket without that provision. It makes perfect sense. I am a ten ball lover. It makes nine ball seem silly.

Thanks this is the answer i was looking for and it clears the rule in my mind and shows Player B made the right call ...