Whats the deal with Micarta ferulles?

scdiveteam said:
David,

I have often wondered who Roger Conti is and could you translate the quotation.

Rick

BTW, for the record Raymond Ceulemans plays with ferrules from my GE Micarta Rod as well as 5 other world champion 3 Cushion Champs and HOFs. Stew cut and installed them all at Ray Schulers Shop here in Palatine, ILL.
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Roger Conti from France is a two-time world champion at carom billiards, his first if I remember correctly at 3-Cushion beating Cochran and Schaefer, the other at Cadre 71/2, as well as the author of one of the most popular books on carom billiards:

conti2.jpg
conti1.jpg
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Rough translation of the quote: "I’ve wasted twenty of my best years at billiards. Given the opportunity, I'd start all over again."

Have you ever met the great Raymond Ceulemans in person, by the way? One of my favourite sportsmen of all time, and what an affable, charming gentleman.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
scdiveteam said:
If Thomas Wayne, Joel Hercek, Barry S, Ernie G, Bill Shick. B Manzino ect, ect, ect. read your post they would laugh. They are some of the greatest on the planet and all use CNC!
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No argument about those guys being among the best, but in the interest of preventing any misinformation, I'm under the understanding that neither Barry Szamboti nor Bill Schick use CNC. Tapering is all done via taper bars and inlays with a panto. I'm really not sure about Hercek's fine billiard cues.
 
Thanks Beau,

I stand corrected about the CNC with those guys you mentioned. At any rate they are still using a a vertical milling spindle machinery.

Panto or CNC, it is still a man and a machine to achieve a job outcome.

Thanks,

Rick
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310396728045?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619#ht_3507wt_1154

I wrote to the seller asking if any part of the book states that "General Elec MICARTA product". I also told the seller that George Westinghouse was the originator of Micarta.

Here is the reply from the seller,
"Hi oops, thanks for correcting that error, you are correct :)
Title & author given to winning bidder so the info isn't used to purchase the book elsewhere after I did the research to find it. Thanks again--"
 
icem3n said:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/310396728045?_trksid=p5197.c0.m619#ht_3507wt_1154

I wrote to the seller asking if any part of the book states that "General Elec MICARTA product". I also told the seller that George Westinghouse was the originator of Micarta.

Here is the reply from the seller,
"Hi oops, thanks for correcting that error, you are correct :)
Title & author given to winning bidder so the info isn't used to purchase the book elsewhere after I did the research to find it. Thanks again--"
Click to expand...

Hi,

So you convinced the seller to change his title. How enterprising of you. I bet if you read that book it will spell out GEs role in the industry and methods. They were a huge participant in the market.

I posted a link that seem to be not working. Here is some other histrionics:

In 1913, Daniel O’Conor, head of the research engineering, process section, and Herbert Faber, insulating materials sales manager, left Westinghouse to found The Formica Insulation Corporation because of disagreements on how to market this product. General Electric also became an early manufacturer of these thermosetting plastics. There were many patents and law suits in the 1918 – 1927 time frame involving Westinghouse, Formica, General Electric, Bakelite, and others. Westinghouse and General Electric had forced Bakelite not to sell phenolic resin to Formica. With the expiration of some patents, court rulings, licensing agreements, the combining of several resin companies into Bakelite Corporation (later became part of Union Carbide), and the increased demand for these products, Westinghouse licensed Formica, GE, and others to make these materials. Several other companies including Panelyte, Taylor Fibre Company, and Continental Diamond Fibre Company entered the industrial high pressure thermosetting laminate market. Applications for these products for insulating electrical equipment.

Did you miss the part where I said Micarta was likened to the term Kleenex or Xerox. It is a generic term. I understand that Westinghouse coined the term and used it in there description as that has been covered here in nauseam. So What?

The GE asbestos piece I have is at least 40 years old and all of the people in the power industry always referred to it as Micarta. Remember the part about me doing my homework?

Let me quote Shakespeare here if I may:

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose.
By any other name would smell as sweet."


That's has always been my point. You can spin your little web anyway you want but the facts remain the same. Everything I have said in the thread holds up because it is the truth.

Get over yourself and quit politicking.

BTW, get a life! I read your bio., Do you really think that playing pool and Counterstrike qualifies you to post in Ask the Cue Maker on technical matters. Counter Strike, is that an on line video game? I get it, your persona is reflected by some X Box toy. How creative!! How old are you?

Rick

Sorry Ice, but I have to do this because you deserve it. Ask the Cue Maker is a serious place and we need to remove people who wish to obfuscate and spin. You represent a bad culture that is like a plague and needs to be exterminated.

Be Gone!!!!
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,



Sorry Ice, but I have to do this because you deserve it. Ask the Cue Maker is a serious place and we need to remove people who wish to obfuscate and spin. You represent a bad culture that is like a plague and needs to be exterminated.

Be Gone!!!!
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Am I missing something here ?
All he did was ask a seller of a book and quoted his answer and did not even give his own opinion.

Icem3n is a cue collector and a client of several makers here.
You couldn't be more wrong in your assumption of him.

Here are two pieces of micarta.
Not for sale or available. A friend owns them.
 

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scdiveteam said:
Thanks Beau,

I stand corrected about the CNC with those guys you mentioned. At any rate they are still using a a vertical milling spindle machinery.

Panto or CNC, it is still a man and a machine to achieve a job outcome.

Thanks,

Rick
Click to expand...

The difference is, one of them is hands on (panto), and with a cnc, you push a button, and go to lunch, or take a nap. Looks like the only place your foot keeps going, is repeatedly in your mouth.
 
danutz said:
The difference is, one of them is hands on (panto), and with a cnc, you push a button, and go to lunch, or take a nap. Looks like the only place your foot keeps going, is repeatedly in your mouth.
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That's fascinating! There are CNC machines that will make the cue I have in mind without me knowing anything nor doing anything? I want one of those! ;)

By the way: I prefer 100% hand-crafted cues, too. Or at least would be willing to pay extra, which is probably illogical because CNC machines are pricey. But I think you're exaggerating.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
 
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scdiveteam said:
Hi,

So you convinced the seller to change his title. How enterprising of you. I bet if you read that book it will spell out GEs role in the industry and methods. They were a huge participant in the market.

Ok, try this. Read the 1st 3 paragraphs and then look at the list of manufactorers just below it.

http://thegundcompany.com/files/ind... Materials - Understanding Material Names.pdf

Did you miss the part where I said Micarta was likened to the term Kleenex or Xerox. It is a generic term. I understand that Westinghouse coined the term and used it in there description as that has been covered here in nauseam. So What?

The GE asbestos piece I have is at least 40 years old and all of the people in the power industry always referred to it as Micarta. Remember the part about me doing my homework?

Let me quote Shakespeare here if I may:

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose.
By any other name would smell as sweet."


That's has always been my point. You can spin your little web anyway you want but the facts remain the same. Everything I have said in the thread holds up because it is the truth.

Get over yourself and quit politicking.

BTW, get a life! I read your bio., Do you really think that playing pool and Counterstrike qualifies you to post in Ask the Cue Maker on technical matters. Counter Strike, is that an on line video game? I get it, your persona is reflected by some X Box toy. How creative!! How old are you?

Rick

Sorry Ice, but I have to do this because you deserve it. Ask the Cue Maker is a serious place and we need to remove people who wish to obfuscate and spin. You represent a bad culture that is like a plague and needs to be exterminated.

Be Gone!!!!
258Troll_spray2.jpg
Click to expand...

My previous posting has nothing to do with the so call Generic term - Micarta. I wrote to the Ebay seller as his/her posting might has mislead others (buyer). I apologize if my previous posting offended you.
 
acousticsguru said:
That's fascinating! There are CNC machines that will make the cue I have in mind without me knowing anything nor doing anything? I want one of those! ;)

By the way: I prefer 100% hand-crafted cues, too. Or at least would be willing to pay extra, which is probably illogical because CNC machines are pricey. But I think you're exaggerating.

Greetings from Switzerland, David.
_________________

„J'ai gâché vingt ans de mes plus belles années au billard. Si c'était à refaire, je recommencerais.“ – Roger Conti
Click to expand...

You might be interested in this 100% handmade cue. Shaft and butt are hand plane.
 

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danutz said:
The difference is, one of them is hands on (panto), and with a cnc, you push a button, and go to lunch, or take a nap. Looks like the only place your foot keeps going, is repeatedly in your mouth.
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Dan,

You think it is that easy. What about developing the Cad geometry, creating the cutter comp differential for the pockets with geometry adjustments for sharp point and corners, verifying the G code and producing parts and testing the pocket fit ups. Also you have to work with radial output indexing. Oh yea there are designs also to create.

If you think any cue maker spends 40 plus hours of his time to build a cue ( we are not talking about plain janes here ), taper it close to finish size and then puts it in a machine and goes to lunch you are not understanding the process at all. At some point you are walking on the tightwire with out a net. This is what is referred to as the mistake free zone of concentrated effort.

There is a point where a mistake can not be fixed if you screw up. Push a button and go to lunch is a sophomoric statement the way I see things.

This is like the other guy who brought up my use of 5 minute epoxy for sealing wood before finishing to try to make me apear to have a lack of understanding. Many people fail in this procedure using G5 because they don't have experience with application details that produce a guaranteed success in the finish process. The devil is always in the details. He was criticizing my methods because it did not fit into his way of skinning a cat. What he fails to understand is the use of this type of epoxy is described in DPK's book as his preferred method. If I have to choose, I will listen to advice from a visionary genius before Dickie. No contest!

I guess my point is that bringing up all of these other things that are not about micarta is for another thread discussion and are not Germaine.

Excuse me, got to go check on the machine.

JMO,

Rick
 
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yellow stuff

Well, I wanted to post photos of my 45 year old yellow ferrules but they have disappeared into the void in my work area for the time being. I'll keep looking.These were VERY yellow.

I did look at the ones from Piercy however and they are flat layered something and have no sign of anything woven in them. If I had to guess I would say layered paper of some sort, but it's just a guess. But for SURE, nothing woven, no rolled and moulded signs, no circular patterns. It's made from flat layered (laminated, if you wish) material of some sort.
 
jeez..

I can see everyone's just like 'family' here, as usual. Man, did I sure (not) miss u guys. :p

I acquired about 20 micarta ferrules from Percy 'Knifemaker' a couple years back. I have installed them in my cues and let everyone in the pool hall try them and I get the same facial expression every time. Part of it is the feedback you get from a purely stroked CB, so I will not let just anyone hit with it. I use nothing but Kamui Black on my cues unless I'm making one for a broke-ass bum.

I recently sold a Schon that had a Runde shaft with the 'old yeller' sheeit and it did play a bit crisper. There is something to be said about rare items and I think it has a definite psychological effect.

I read somewhere that someone wanted some of these ferrules and I would be willing to sell a few of the remaining micarta ferrules I have left.

Again, to be clear, these not the high dollar sheeit. Just semi-high dollar.

If anyone has any doubts about what I'm talking about, proof exists in an archived thread dated possibly around 2010-2011.

search 'knifemaker' micarta... and you can contact him to verify that he and I did a deal. some of you who know me will also know that won't be necessary.

I am selling these because I know how it is to want something very badly, being how it is nearly impossible to get, and since I learned so much from here, I want to give a little back by sharing some of my stock even though I really don't want to. I would even trade for ferrule size ivory depending on where you got it from, so email me and we can talk.

Email me at kkaktuggi-making@yahoo.com if you are interested.

Thank you,
SK
 
I think there needs to be a micarta 'sticky' so that everytime someone asks about it, all you have to do is point and not argue.
 
Hi,

I have received many PMs concerning this Micarta thread and I just got one this morning from a gentlemen who forwarded me a PDF concern the history of Micarta an the revolution that occurred from plastics in manufacturing in the 20th century.

There was nothing about "asbestos" in the 3 page document as it did not go into the different formulations or chemistry concerning the product. Here is a paragraph I cut and pasted that is germaine to the subject that has been argued here.

In 1913, Daniel O’Conor, head of the research engineering, process section, and Herbert Faber, insulating materials sales manager, left Westinghouse to found The Formica Insulation Corporation because of disagreements on how to market this product. General Electric also became an early manufacturer of these thermosetting plastics. There were many patents and law suits in the 1918 – 1927 time frame involving Westinghouse, Formica, General Electric, Bakelite, and others. Westinghouse and General Electric had forced Bakelite not to sell phenolic resin to Formica. With the expiration of some patents, court rulings, licensing agreements, the combining of several resin companies into Bakelite Corporation (later became part of Union Carbide), and the increased demand for these products and in the end as a settlement, Westinghouse licensed Formica, GE, and others to make these materials. Several other companies including Panelyte, Taylor Fibre Company, and Continental Diamond Fibre Company entered the industrial high pressure thermosetting laminate market. Applications for these products are for insulating electrical equipment.

So Wikepedia's description failed to give vital details concern the marketing application, legal issues and general historical info regarding something that was revolutionary in products that changed the culture in manufacturing. Single sourcing information to validate a point of contention can often cause knee jerk reactions that can hide the real facts. The fact that Micarta was a trade name had nothing to due with it's proliferation in the market and the Micarta became an icon like Kleenex or Xerox did concerning a product association. This was my point of contention since my first post and it saddens me that stipulating a few points could cause such personal character attacks. I guess at a time like that we are all naked at the alter of the truth. Which I must say is sometimes flawed by urban legend. That's why you always have to do you homework and research and not be swayed by any venom that may come your way

Also, my very good friend and cue maker in my midwest area Todd Schaller has been following this thread and gave me a ferrule cut off of a shaft from the Omega DPK shop in Wacanda Il.. Todd has over 20 of these but more importantly is that he had the opportunity to pick up all of the stock materials left in that shop for making cues when the realtor was going to dumpster everything to clear the space.

Todd has pieces of the flat laminate sheets that have the Westinghouse lable still on them. Since DPK was the person who set up the Omega DPK Shop, I think it is a safe bet that this material is the same stuff the Jerry Franklin had been using. But don't quote me because it is only my deduction from the evidence. I could not swear to this on the stand.

The ferrule pics below are of the same material and if you inspect it closely it is the same stuff that has been shown here in another post. The other very yellow stuff is a different formula or is from a different manufacturer as well as the GE stuff I have posted.

There are many many formulas but I think the question is which ones have the secrete sauce in their formula called "asbestos". I don't know for sure but I would bet the asbestos is the reason those ferrules have such an impact concerning playability on a cue.

Thanks for all of the positive thoughts from people who contacted me about this thread. It is appreciated very much.

To everyone here, it's all good and enjoy the holiday weekend,

Rick

Westinghouse Micarta from the Omega DPK cue making material stores.
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I have a ferrule on my Schuler which was installed by Alex Brick. I don't know if it's the 'good stuff', but he said it was and it is some very good stuff. I love the feel of it.
 
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