What's the point of a smaller tip?

[iusedtoberich]

Many years ago, played a guy at Starcher's in Akron. He was from somewhere in Northern Kentucky. Played with half a tip. No, part of the tip hadn't "flaked off". He purposely cut the tip with a knife. Never seen anything like that before or after the match. How does that compare with the OP's question about small tips?

Lyn

Thats very interesting. I wonder how that would affect CB squirt. That is removing end mass as close as possible to the cue ball. The leather is very light, compared to the wood/ferrule traditionally removed in low squirt shafts. But, this is RIGHT at the tip, literally. I always wondered how the ratio of mass removed compared to its distance from the tip affected CB squirt.

 

[charlieeeh]

As much as a 10mm or 100mm tip. For maximum spin they all use the tip's edge (depending on curvature).

pj
chgo

Right, assuming contact point is the same. But smaller tips have a more extreme miscue limit.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Right, assuming contact point is the same. But smaller tips have a more extreme miscue limit.

Only if you are looking at the centerline of the shaft. If you looked at the contact point produced by a 5mm tip, and a 20 mm tip, the point would be the same at the miscue limit for both tip diameters.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Small diameter tips don't:
- produce more spin

Thaig':
How much spin does a 57mm tip produce?

Me:
As much as a 10mm or 100mm tip. For maximum spin they all use the tip's edge (depending on curvature).

Thaig':
The curvature of a small tip is, comparatively speaking, more pronounced than the curvature of a big tip. Agreed?

Sorry, I don't agree - small tips can be flat and large tips can have pronounced curvatures. That depends on what the player wants. The only physical limitation is that the radius of a tip's curvature can't be smaller than the radius of its side (width).

As you can see from the drawing below, both smaller (10mm) and larger (12.7mm) tips within the typical range of curvatures can reach all of the cue ball surface necessary for all possible amounts of spin.



pj
chgo

 

[thefonz]

Small tips:
Deflect less
Smaller contact patch - tougher to control exactly how much English you're putting on the cb and greater chance for putting on unintentional side.
Less cue power-except for those exceptionally gifted.

Imho small tips shouldn't be used by those with average strokes. If anything the average player should be using a 14mm tip.

 

[dr_dave]

Small diameter tips:
1. produce less squirt (because they have less "end mass") and
2. make it easier to see where you're hitting the CB.

That's all.

Small diameter tips don't:
- produce more spin
- "shoot straight no matter how hard you hit"
- make the shaft whippy (that's taper)
- "forgive less" for stroke errors

Good summary.

If people want more info and supporting resources on this topic (including video demonstrations), see:

cue tip size and shape effects
cue endmass and stiffness effects​

Regards,
Dave

 

[iusedtoberich]

Actually, I've been of the opinion that the tip diameter and/or curvature do not affect accuracy. I believe the science guys have stated that, while the regular players have stated a smaller tip is more prone to error. However, after seeing the pic PJ posted in post #24, I may have to rethink my leaning on the topic of accuracy vs tip.

Lets say a player strokes the stick in his bridge hand, and it wobbles back and forth within a margin of error of 1 mm inside his bridge fingers. He does not intend this, but its what happens. This back and forth wobble is measured at the sticks centerline (CL) at the tip.

CJ's picture shows conclusively:
1. That for the same shaft diameter
2. and to hit the same spot on the CB
3. the shaft with the greater tip curvature is offset less, when looking at its CL. (BTW, tip curvature is the inverse of the radius, so that a dime radius has more curvature than a nickel).

So a nickel radius tip has to move more on its CL than a dime radius tip to produce the same contact point.

I can't see from the pic if the same is true of the same tip curvature on different shaft diameters. (I used a straightedge formed by a window edge on my screen to see for sure what I stated above).

Now, back to our player with the 1 mm wobble in his stroke, when viewed from the CL of the shaft. If he uses a nickel radius tip, that 1mm wobble would cause less of a shift from his intended contact point, than the same 1mm wobble if he was using a dime radius tip.

Thoughts? PJ, Dr Dave?

Thanks.

*Edit:
It looks like Dr Dave's link above supports what I said, but uses the center ball hit in its example. Dr Dave, do you feel the same is true when a player is intending to apply spin?

 

[nobcitypool]

The curvature of a small tip is, comparatively speaking, more pronounced than the curvature of a big tip. Agreed?

Not agreed. Were they both half circles, the "curvature" (whatever that really means) would be exactly the same. A circle is 360 degrees regardless of the diameter.

 

[iusedtoberich]

Not agreed. Were they both half circles, the "curvature" (whatever that really means) would be exactly the same. A circle is 360 degrees regardless of the diameter.

Curvature is the inverse of the radius. 1/R. That is the mathematical formula. So a larger radius tip has a small curvature, and a small radius tip has a large curvature.

Curvature of the portion of the tip that strikes the cue ball is independent of the shaft/tip diameter (within geometrical limits)

 

[Pushout]

Not agreed. Were they both half circles, the "curvature" (whatever that really means) would be exactly the same. A circle is 360 degrees regardless of the diameter.

Agreed, the curve would be the same regardless of the size of the tip.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Not agreed. Were they both half circles, the "curvature" (whatever that really means) would be exactly the same. A circle is 360 degrees regardless of the diameter.

Speaking of tips, "curvature" usually means the radius of the surface curve - smaller radius = "more" (or "more pronounced") curvature.

pj
chgo

 

[dr_dave]

So a nickel radius tip has to move more on its CL than a dime radius tip to produce the same contact point.

That is correct; although, there is not much difference between a nickel and dime radius (as PJ's image shows). The following diagram from my tip size and shape effects page shows the effect you are describing for exaggerated differences in tip curvature:

It looks like Dr Dave's link above supports what I said, but uses the center ball hit in its example. Dr Dave, do you feel the same is true when a player is intending to apply spin?

Here is the pertinent statement from my resource page:

One advantage of a flatter tip is that a center-ball hit, with some tip placement inaccuracy, will generally have less unintentional English (and unexpected throw). In other words, a larger, flatter tip is more "forgiving" with near-center-ball hits. It is also easier to control small amount of sidespin since more cue offset is required to create more sidespin, as compared to a rounder tip.​

The second sentence applies to off-center hits. With a flatter tip, more cue displacement is required to change the amount of tip contact-point offset (and the resulting amount of sidespin). But again, the difference between a dime and nickel curvature is not very significant.

I hope that helps,
Dave

 

[ENGLISH!]

Dr. Dave's Diagram & explanation is why I prefer a more 'flat' tip.

Interestingly, is that in the diagram the tip thickness goes from thick to thiner to thinest for the 'flat' tip.

I prefer a thick 'flater' soft tip to allow for what 'feels' to be more compression & what 'feels' like a bit more contact time & what 'feels' like a bit more control.

Simply stating my desires & 'feelings'.

Please guys... don't scold me & make cry.:crying:

Regards,

 

[iusedtoberich]

That is correct; although, there is not much difference between a nickle and dime radius (as PJ's image shows). The following diagram from my tip size and shape effects page shows the effect you are describing for exaggerated differences in tip curvature:

Here is the pertinent statement from my resource page:

One advantage of a flatter tip is that a center-ball hit, with some tip placement inaccuracy, will generally have less unintentional English (and unexpected throw). In other words, a larger, flatter tip is more "forgiving" with near-center-ball hits. It is also easier to control small amount of sidespin since more cue offset is required to create more sidespin, as compared to a rounder tip.​

The second sentence applies to off-center hits. With a flatter tip, more cue displacement is required to change the amount of tip contact-point offset (and the resulting amount of sidespin). But again, the difference between a dime and nickle curvature is not very significant.

I hope that helps,
Dave

Agree. But with that said, would you agree its a fair statement that a smaller tip curvature (nickel) offers a greater margin of error of hit on the CB than a larger tip curvature (dime)?

The player with a 1mm wobble in their stroke, aiming to "strike" at the contact point on the CB, 13mm from center, will get closer to that contact point with a nickel radius compared to a dime radius.

Does that not equate to a larger margin of error for any given target on a CB?

 

[CJ Wiley]

being able to "pin" the balls

Always thought a smaller tip gives more sidespin but I discovered it's not the case because the contact point with the cb is the same. So, what's the point of a smaller tip? I understand a smaller tip is mandatory playing snooker because the balls are smaller, but in carom? The balls are bigger than pool balls but a lot of players use 10mm tips.

It give us the feeling of being able to "pin" the balls...with maximum precision. I would suggest following the guideline, the bigger the table, the smaller the tip.

On bar tables you don't want to encourage spin on the cue ball so it's better to go larger (12.5-13mm), and this is more of a mental than a physical thing. imho

 

[dr_dave]

Agree. But with that said, would you agree its a fair statement that a smaller tip curvature (nickel) offers a greater margin of error of hit on the CB than a larger tip curvature (dime)?

Yes ... there is a slightly greater tip-contact-point margin of error for the flatter nickel curvature as compared to the rounder dime.

The player with a 1mm wobble in their stroke, aiming to "strike" at the contact point on the CB, 13mm from center, will get closer to that contact point with a nickel radius compared to a dime radius.

Yes, by a small amount.

Does that not equate to a larger margin of error for any given target on a CB?

Yes.

Regards,
Dave

 

[nobcitypool]

Speaking of tips, "curvature" usually means the radius of the surface curve - smaller radius = "more" (or "more pronounced") curvature.

pj
chgo

Understood. I wasn't clear what Thaiger's definition was or what context he was using the word in.

 

[TheThaiger]

It give us the feeling of being able to "pin" the balls...with maximum precision. I would suggest following the guideline, the bigger the table, the smaller the tip.

On bar tables you don't want to encourage spin on the cue ball so it's better to go larger (12.5-13mm), and this is more of a mental than a physical thing. imho

Eh? Smaller table, smaller tip, surely? English 8 ballers can use tips as small as 6mm, with standard being around 8.5. People can draw as many diagrams as they like but I've yet to see someone draw a 1.75" CB with a 13mm tip anywhere near as much as with an 8mm tip. Smaller tip = more precise transference of power = more draw.

And why wouldn't you use spin on a small table?

 

[Patrick Johnson]

People can draw as many diagrams as they like but I've yet to see someone draw a 1.75" CB with a 13mm tip anywhere near as much as with an 8mm tip.

Smaller tip = more precise transference of power = more draw.

Smaller tip = neither of these things. More draw comes from hitting lower and/or harder.

A 13mm tip can't physically hit low enough on a 1.75" CB to get maximum draw - because the miscue limit is only about 11mm off the cloth (compared with 14mm off the cloth on a 2.25" CB). That's what makes the difference, not "more precise transference of power".

If "more precise transference of power" was a real thing you could get more spin with a smaller tip even hitting the CB on the same point at the same speed - but it's easily shown that you can't.

pj
chgo

 

[PetToilet]

Small diameter tips don't:
- "forgive less" for stroke errors

pj
chgo

It's not that clear cut. With less deflection, the pivot point is often further away from their bridge length than a standard cue. Stroke errors are like back hand english, so when the pivot length is extended beyond their bridge length, the deflection isn't canceled out as much. And often (but not always), larger tips have larger diameter tip shapes (nickel vs dime) leading to a slight difference in contact point for the same stroke error.

Of course, swerve adds complication, but many stroke errors happen at high speed, where swerve is less pronounced.