Alignment with today's machinery & component quality shouldn't be an issue that requires piloted joints, unless a pin sloppy fit into insert is used. Pins are fitting very well nowadays & are self aligning. It's cool to look at, but I can't think of any structural or playability bennefits.
What's the theory behind a piloted joint?
- Thread starter Impact Blue
- Start date
> I haven't hit a ball with one made like that yet. I can see everyone's point because I haven't. Based on my more extensive experience with cues with the stainless collar/pilot,I think it makes more of a difference with that style than with the bigger pin and no insert.
I'm dying to make both and try it :thumbup:. Tommy D.
I'm dying to make both and try it :thumbup:. Tommy D.
There WAS a time and a place for the piloted joint but that time has passed. The practice continues today purely out of tradition. Most of today's piloted joints serve no practical purpose whatsoever.
It would appear that tradition and aesthetics are valued higher than the purity of 'hit'.
Hit is defined by the transmission of vibration created at the tip when striking the Q-ball and how that vibration reaches and is received by your grip hand.
I've yet to be convinced that hanging half of the shaft's face-surface in a void surrounded by stainless steel does anything to enhance the hit. 'Mute' and 'distort' are the expletives that immediately come to mind.
Anyone have the fire dept. on speed dial?
It would appear that tradition and aesthetics are valued higher than the purity of 'hit'.
Hit is defined by the transmission of vibration created at the tip when striking the Q-ball and how that vibration reaches and is received by your grip hand.
I've yet to be convinced that hanging half of the shaft's face-surface in a void surrounded by stainless steel does anything to enhance the hit. 'Mute' and 'distort' are the expletives that immediately come to mind.
Anyone have the fire dept. on speed dial?
KJ Cues said:
Oh my - finally the truth about piloted joints.
Good Cuemaking,
When I asked Tony at Black Boar about the purpose of a piloted joint, he explained it to me like this.
If the joint is flat faced, on an off center hit, where the cue is forced to bend some, the joint faces will separate for a moment. It is a microscopically small separation, and lasts a very short time period, but creates an artificial flex point (nodal point) in the cue, which is undesirable because the cue should act as one solid unit. A tight compression fitting pilot does not allow for this separation.
A piloted joint without that tight fitting pilot does no good whatsoever.
Its not about feel, because both types of joints will provide sufficient feedback. Its about the cue flexing as two separate pieces instead of one.
If the joint is flat faced, on an off center hit, where the cue is forced to bend some, the joint faces will separate for a moment. It is a microscopically small separation, and lasts a very short time period, but creates an artificial flex point (nodal point) in the cue, which is undesirable because the cue should act as one solid unit. A tight compression fitting pilot does not allow for this separation.
A piloted joint without that tight fitting pilot does no good whatsoever.
Its not about feel, because both types of joints will provide sufficient feedback. Its about the cue flexing as two separate pieces instead of one.
fullsplicefiend said:
It doesn't matter to me who said it or even if you quoted it accurately.
The statement that you've made is incorrect.
Almost all cues will 'separate' to a degree unless they are threaded together on their perimeter. A piloted joint DOES NOT negate the implied phenomenon.
Please consider the amount of force required to achieve what you are suggesting. The only time I've seen such separation is when bending the cue over my knee to unlock a frozen joint. A cue ball is only 2 1/4" wide and at most you are offsetting less than 1/2 of that so the change of angle at the joint is ridiculously small. Please reconsider.
Snake oil? :thumbup:KJ Cues said:
oh my, this thread is getting goooood.
Joey,
Hopefully you take this the right way because sometimes I like to play.
I have a gist of the term "snake oil" but in this case I'm confused as to whether it's use here is an attempt to contribute to the discussion or a round-about way of advertising a new brand of Lizard Lube?
Hopefully you take this the right way because sometimes I like to play.
JoeyInCali said:
I have a gist of the term "snake oil" but in this case I'm confused as to whether it's use here is an attempt to contribute to the discussion or a round-about way of advertising a new brand of Lizard Lube?
First off I dont want to make it sound like im speaking for Mr. Scianella because I'm most definitely not, I'm just trying to explain how he explained it to me a while ago. I think he keeps his opinions on cue construction quiet in order to avoid flame wars or offending any other builders.
Please explain your statement. How is a compression fitted pilot into a stainess steel collar going to allow for any movement?
Thats what I said. Almost all will separate. The only ones that won't, are compression fitted piloted joints.
Exactly. You havent "seen" the separation because, as I said in my earlier post, it is microscopic. It happens during the wave of energy traveling down the cue and back up after it strikes a ball. Whether or not you or I believe this happens or not is irrelivent unless we have a camera capable of taking microscopic photos that can examine the joint during the compression cycle of a cue. I believe that Tony has researched this extensively and thats why he makes his cues with that joint.
Just my opinion. Not trying to start a fight. If its good enough for Gus Szamboti, Scianella, Searing, and Balabushka, its good enough for me. These guys all chose that particular joint setup, and none that I know of have surpassed them in the playability department. By no means am I saying a flat-faced joint is unplayable, just that the elimination of that separation, which creates a false nodal point, is a good thing.
How can you state that as fact without offering any evidence to the contrary?KJ Cues said:
KJ Cues said:
Please explain your statement. How is a compression fitted pilot into a stainess steel collar going to allow for any movement?
KJ Cues said:
Thats what I said. Almost all will separate. The only ones that won't, are compression fitted piloted joints.
KJ Cues said:
Exactly. You havent "seen" the separation because, as I said in my earlier post, it is microscopic. It happens during the wave of energy traveling down the cue and back up after it strikes a ball. Whether or not you or I believe this happens or not is irrelivent unless we have a camera capable of taking microscopic photos that can examine the joint during the compression cycle of a cue. I believe that Tony has researched this extensively and thats why he makes his cues with that joint.
Just my opinion. Not trying to start a fight. If its good enough for Gus Szamboti, Scianella, Searing, and Balabushka, its good enough for me. These guys all chose that particular joint setup, and none that I know of have surpassed them in the playability department. By no means am I saying a flat-faced joint is unplayable, just that the elimination of that separation, which creates a false nodal point, is a good thing.
The fit would have be so tight you wouldnt be able to screw the cue togetherfullsplicefiend said:
If the fit is made just tight enough to rub the joint its going to loosen slightly over time anyway so whats been gained?
Me is thinking, a new brand of shaft slicker.
You may be on to something KJ.
Exactly. You havent "seen" the separation because, as I said in my earlier post, it is microscopic. It happens during the wave of energy traveling down the cue and back up after it strikes a ball. Whether or not you or I believe this happens or not is irrelivent unless we have a camera capable of taking microscopic photos that can examine the joint during the compression cycle of a cue. I believe that Tony has researched this extensively and thats why he makes his cues with that joint.
Just my opinion. Not trying to start a fight. If its good enough for Gus Szamboti, Scianella, Searing, and Balabushka, its good enough for me. These guys all chose that particular joint setup, and none that I know of have surpassed them in the playability department. By no means am I saying a flat-faced joint is unplayable, just that the elimination of that separation, which creates a false nodal point, is a good thing.
Bushka and Gus could not have possibly seen that separation as it would have taken a fancy video lab to have seen that I think.
You didn't mention that the screw they used was 5/16 14 which has a lot of play.
Now, factor in the acme looking pin in the pic or the ball screw with about a little more than an inch of zero play threads inside the shaft.
This would really be an easy test to see if the faces separate.
Grab a .001 feeler gauge and cut it. Place one between the faces.
Screw the cue together. Now play with the cue all night.
Bet you it stays there.
My two cents.
fullsplicefiend said:
I am not a cuemaker, but I do know a bit about materials. If you apply a stress on something there will be a resulting strain. If a flat faced joint shows a strain (tiny gap for a very brief time) then so will a piloted joint. The registration shoulder will resist better in a pure lateral strain, but the bending action caused by an off center hit will not apply a pure lateral strain. The registration shoulder will resist a bit, but not much, especially compared to the resistance provided by the joint pin, imo.
If you want to look at it another way, will it be more difficult to break a piloted cue over your knee, or a flat faced cue ? If you can prove that it is extremely difficule to break a piloted cue as opposed to a flat faced cue, then there might be a significant difference in the gap. If they break with about the same force, then they will have about the same gap for any given hit. I think they break with about the same force, and that force will depend on the pin and joint diameter for the most part.
I have no evidence, only my gut feel based on years of building and breaking things.
Dave
Hows the weather in Toon Town, Dave.
Blue Hog ridr said:
Terrible, cold and snowy .... thanks for asking :angry: My wife just called from her car, stuck in a big traffic snarl on Circle Drive, and she has but fumes in her gas tank ... OOooops
Dave
PS
PPS I'll be in Regina in Feb ..... I'll PM in the new year
Do that Dave, and we can meet at the Shark Tank for a few games if you have time.
Thank you gentlemen for your input. It would appear that there are others who share my opinions on this subject and they have presented some very convincing arguments. However, I feel it's an exercise in futility to discuss or debate the pros & cons of this topic with someone who obviously has their mind already made-up to the contrary. So be it.
It's unfortunate that names had to be mentioned to support an arguable position when discretion could have served as well.
To Mr. Anthony Sciannella, I sincerely apologize for any inference to your construction methods as you obviously know what works best for your cues and it's not my intent to take anything away from that. Your knowledge of cue construction is reflected in your success.
I've recently been to the Black Boar website and it's definitely worth a look and read : http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp
Since the 'door has been opened', by making reference to 'The Master' through events of this thread, it seems only fitting that we enter through that door and explore what is actually stated. Points of interest, relevant to our discussion, are found in the Physics and the Cuemaking sections. Unfortunately, I find no reference to joint separation and how a piloted shaft prevents it. However there is a pic of the Black Boar pilot which is of wood construction. This is found on the page titled 'Compression Fitting' and is accompanied by an interesting read about a tip that was conveyed to Tony from Gus Szamboti. It does suggest 'playability' concerning the piloted joint but again no reference to joint separation. Let's not assume too much.
I'll leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. I stand by my original statements (post #27), particularly : "Almost all cues will 'separate' to a degree unless they are threaded together on their perimeter. A piloted joint DOES NOT negate the implied phenomenon."
Until someone wants to step forward and prove otherwise, I'm done.
I happen to like horses.
It's unfortunate that names had to be mentioned to support an arguable position when discretion could have served as well.
To Mr. Anthony Sciannella, I sincerely apologize for any inference to your construction methods as you obviously know what works best for your cues and it's not my intent to take anything away from that. Your knowledge of cue construction is reflected in your success.
I've recently been to the Black Boar website and it's definitely worth a look and read : http://www.blackboarcustomcues.com/guarantee/default.asp
Since the 'door has been opened', by making reference to 'The Master' through events of this thread, it seems only fitting that we enter through that door and explore what is actually stated. Points of interest, relevant to our discussion, are found in the Physics and the Cuemaking sections. Unfortunately, I find no reference to joint separation and how a piloted shaft prevents it. However there is a pic of the Black Boar pilot which is of wood construction. This is found on the page titled 'Compression Fitting' and is accompanied by an interesting read about a tip that was conveyed to Tony from Gus Szamboti. It does suggest 'playability' concerning the piloted joint but again no reference to joint separation. Let's not assume too much.
I'll leave it to the reader to draw their own conclusions. I stand by my original statements (post #27), particularly : "Almost all cues will 'separate' to a degree unless they are threaded together on their perimeter. A piloted joint DOES NOT negate the implied phenomenon."
Until someone wants to step forward and prove otherwise, I'm done.
I happen to like horses.