Whats your thoughts on Natural ability vs. hard earned ability

student4ever

student4ever

50 on the breaker...
Silver Member
I was having a good conversation in the hall last night with a friend. We were discussing different players and we started to talk about how players who learn harder ( less natural ability) play compared to players who have more natural ability. Anyway, what I was looking to hear is opinions on things like if you think unnatural players top out at a certain speed? Does it seem like players who learn it harder quit playing the game more often? Any opinions really....talk it up!!:D
 
well, being born with excellent hand eye coordination never hurts, but IMO the balls don't know the difference. I think anyone can become a good player, but some have an easier time just from having more dexterity.

The more important thing IMO is being around good players, and learning at every chance. AZB, Accu-stats etc are just as important as learning how to hold a cue. I know a guy who is uncoordinated as it gets, looks goofy on the table, but is super smart, and learned more than the average player which made him real hard to beat!
 
Well, Tommy kennedy is a perfect example. By all accounts, not a particularly gifted player, he kept practicing, kept practicing, and finally, he won the US Open. Granted, the US Open he won was not nearly as strong as current US Opens, but it was still stronger than most big regional events.

The key is, once you've put in the effort to learn up to a certain level, you've learned it. Even if you quit playing for a while, you'll be able to get back up to close to that level if you practice enough.

I do think that you have to have a certain level of natural talent to reach the "superpro" level, i.e. Archer, Morris, Orcullo, Strickland, Soquet, etc.. But anything below that can be reached with enough time, smarts, and dedication.

Russ
 
People tell me how "naturally gifted" I am enough to make me uncomfortable, yet they also tell me "you practice more than anyone I know but you don't need to". Um hello, for one I am not that great of a player and for two, have you ever listened to the words coming out of your mouth?

I practice a ton because I like it and I like what it does for my game, whether or not I have "natural" talent means nothing. Sure I probably wouldn't play as much as I do if I played a notch or two below my speed now, or maybe I would play even more, who knows?

Saying someone has natural talent to me dismisses the hard work that they have put in, I have been playing for almost 20 years now and people never think about that part.
 
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Well, you need to talk about different levels of play, as far as professional players are concerned, you have to have "it" whatever that is, they understand and see pocketing balls at a very early age, ive read interviews with mosconi, mizerak, and heard allen hopkins talk about picking up a cue at an early age and just being able to pocket balls. I think this would probably be true of all world class players, so they have the natural ability that they work very hard on to beat other guys with the same natural gift.
 
RunoutalloverU said:
Well, you need to talk about different levels of play, as far as professional players are concerned, you have to have "it" whatever that is, they understand and see pocketing balls at a very early age, ive read interviews with mosconi, mizerak, and heard allen hopkins talk about picking up a cue at an early age and just being able to pocket balls. I think this would probably be true of all world class players, so they have the natural ability that they work very hard on to beat other guys with the same natural gift.
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Seriously - can you just say it in plain english and forget the slang :D:D:D:D:D

BVal
 
NBA great Larry Byrd had hard earned ability. He played basketball real well.
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Every player will at some point be limited by what natural talent and ability they were born with if they study, train, practice and push enough. Hard work can and will overcome a lot of the lack of natural talent, but at some point you will top out. In other words, every individual only has the potential to get so good.

95% of the population has the ability to be an A level player with enough determination and hard work.

95% of the population could never be a decent pro level, regardless of their determination and hard work. They will be limited by their talent and natural ability before they could get there.

95% of the players out there, pros included, have not applied themselves enough to reach the point where they topped out.

Obviously, the more talent a player has, the more quickly he will progress. It probably takes about the same amount of determination and hard work to hit the limit of your potential though, regardless of whether you have little or a lot of natural talent.
 
Irving Crane said in an interview in Billiards Digest: "You either have natural ability, or you don't." IIRC, he was of the opinion that if you didn't have it, you could only go so far, not as far as someone who had it. Personally, I think we all have some, it's just that some of us are able to tap into it more and earlier than others. A player I knew in NY ran 80 balls his second year in the game. It was generally accepted that he had it. I think that a good indication of how much natural ability you have is how well you see the table. I'm thinking mostly of Straight pool here, not 9 ball or 8 ball which isn't even close. After that, your ability to execute what you see and what you know. Of course, knowledge comes with experience, to some degree.
 
Natural ability is a must. You HAVE to have great hand-eye coordination to begin with. It's not something that can be learned, no matter how hard you try, or how many hours you put in.

Joe Klutz could live on a pool table, 24 hrs a day and is still never going to be better than a B player.

God given talent is a must to be a champion, I do believe.

Rick S.
 
i've never been so sure about 'natural talent'. or if it's as big an issue as people talk about. a lot of the names that come to mind when we talk about natural talent have been playing hours every day for years and years and people forget that.

plus another thing is the style that a player plays. people seem so much quicker to label someone 'naturally talented' if they play in a conventionally 'flashy' and flair way. i'm gonna use a snooker example because ronnie o'sullivan is probably the most 'natural talent' labelled player on the planet. but in my opinion he's not better than hendry, or williams. or ebdon. but he plays the game fast and he's good looking and talks a lot so people give him a 'natural talent' label. as opposed to say peter ebdon for example (ralf souquet of snooker basically for people who don't follow snooker). no one would ever say peter ebdon was the most naturally gifted player - no, they call him a grinder! and they talk about his dogged determination, concentration, and focus. even though he also happens to have one of the smoothest most beautiful strokes you'll see on the tour.

this isn't a knock on ronnie btw i'm just saying that we know nowhere near enough about biology, genetics, dna, and the brain to find out just how much natural talent a player may have and at the moment, the way we make our judgements on how much natural ability a player may have is very crude.
 
student4ever said:
I was having a good conversation in the hall last night with a friend. We were discussing different players and we started to talk about how players who learn harder ( less natural ability) play compared to players who have more natural ability. Anyway, what I was looking to hear is opinions on things like if you think unnatural players top out at a certain speed? Does it seem like players who learn it harder quit playing the game more often? Any opinions really....talk it up!!:D
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Natural ability, honed with desire? Those players win out...every time.

BUT..."honed with desire" must be there.. This holds true with those who reach the top level of any sport.
 
You cant train in what God left out.


Archer was running the occasional 6 pack at 16 years old with no real teaching, he did it on his own. I have heard he throws free throws at basketball real good and he is a very good golfer. My point is he connects his mind to his muscles in a way most people cant. he sees angles very easily, he excelled in geometry in math he told me. My point is he is gifted and that has been demonstraited over the past 20 years on the pool table. That was his "Gift" when he was born. I have a friend who is the #1 body builder in the world right now, that was his gift, streoids aside if you dont have the genitics to get there you wont at the highest level, same in pool greatness is a gift-your born with it.

i wasnt born with it, however as I age I am improving my game, infact despite my back problems when I do have a few good days I'm playing better than ever and i'm old for that, 41. Funny how things work.

this is an interesting topic...
 
student4ever said:
I was having a good conversation in the hall last night with a friend. We were discussing different players and we started to talk about how players who learn harder ( less natural ability) play compared to players who have more natural ability. Anyway, what I was looking to hear is opinions on things like if you think unnatural players top out at a certain speed? Does it seem like players who learn it harder quit playing the game more often? Any opinions really....talk it up!!:D
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In my opinion a Natural Player already has an advantage over others trying to learn the game. I suspect that if you take a natural player and someone who loves the game and they both start playing at the same time. In addition if they both put their hearts into the game, seek out instruction and practice practice practice, in a very short time the player with natural ability will be way beyond the level of the other player.

Now my scenario above is not saying that the player with natural ability may not have other problems, such as, No heart when challenged, can not compete when under pressure or when gambling. These problems do not take away from one's ability as much as they can allow a more knowledgeable player with a great stroke can be a Brides Maid for life an never marry.

One of the best natural players I have ever seen was a Gentleman from St.Louis which is were I was born. He was known as Louie "St. Louis Louie" Roberts. I was fortunate to see him when he was up and coming and man was he great!!!!!!
 
A friend of mine went from a C player to a junior national champion and runner of 6-packs in nine ball after about two years. Watching someone draw the ball 2 1/2 tables lengths after playing a year makes you realize some people definately have that "extra" natural talent.

Hard work can get you there, but natural talent will get you there quicker and I also think they have less bad days. Even run-out players who weren't naturals seem to have those B or C players days that top pros almost never have.

One big factor is a lot of "natural talents" seem to have had the opportunity to start when they were real young. Only very, very few start late in life and still become top players.
 
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