When do you cut your wrap groove?

BarenbruggeCues said:
Definitely more than one way to skin a cat but if you're worried about the butt moving after a 12 inch long .020 deep cut, I think you may have bigger problems with your handle wood than you know. Maybe I'm wrong but if your handle is moving after cutting a little groove in it, it's already full of tension and is a bomb waiting to go off whether you groove it or not. Not a good idea to grind it all out in one pass but I've never had much problem shaving it down in 4 consecutive passes. Finish the cue and square the corners right before installing the wrap.
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Sorry, Dave, I just don't see the reason to take .005 4 times.
If you're so worried the wood would move if you took more than .005 off in one pass...
I don't see why taking down .030 and doing a .010 or less ( + 220 grit sanding ) final pass could be wrong, but I am all ears.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
I never said I cut a .020 deep cut on a finish cut. If my way has worked for me well for 15 years why would I change?
Like I said...there's more than one way to skin the cat. I know guys that are cutting the wrap groove with every cut they make on the butt and know guys that do it exactly how I do it. Your obviously having a problem doing it the way you were or you wouldn't have brought it up.
If your having problems change your procedure. It's a pretty simple technique. If I'm doing something that isn't working out the way I have envisioned it, I change. If it's working out, I don't change.
You certainly have a variety of ideas to work with from the posters here.
GL
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This thread has reminded me why I spend the time cutting the wrap over time.


"Your obviously having a problem doing it the way you were or you wouldn't have brought it up."

Not having any problems. It's a time thing. If I agreed I would of changed.
 
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Graciocues said:
This thread has reminded me why I spend the time cutting the wrap over time.

Not having any problems. If I agreed I would of changed.
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I can see why if one had a cnc taperer, it would be a lot more work to cut the wrap-groove in separate turning sessions.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Sorry, Dave, I just don't see the reason to take .005 4 times.
If you're so worried the wood would move if you took more than .005 off in one pass...
I don't see why taking down .030 and doing a .010 or less ( + 220 grit sanding ) final pass could be wrong, but I am all ears.
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No sorry....for me it's very simple. The stress of the cut. I'm not worried at all about my wood moving. I've pretty much eliminated that situation. But I do tend to go the other way a little as far as tool pressure versus depth of the cut. Even though I'm cutting with a 3 wing cutter and tool pressure is at a minimum...why force the issue? Takes me all less than 10 mins to do the channel with next to no problems. I've always held the theory that it is far easier and less painful on the wood to take a multitude of small passes versus 2 or 3 bigger bites. I guess bite size could be a debatable topic if you were bored and had nothing else to do.
It probably comes from my whittling years.
 
JoeyInCali said:
I can see why if one had a cnc taperer, it would be a lot more work to cut the wrap-groove in separate turning sessions.
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define "a lot more"? If cutting a wrap groove is work then clipping my toe nails must be an occupational hazard.
Although I do tend to get pretty tired and run down from turning that dial thingy with the numbers on it. That's pretty tough work.
 
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Graciocues said:
This thread has reminded me why I spend the time cutting the wrap over time.


"Your obviously having a problem doing it the way you were or you wouldn't have brought it up."

Not having any problems. It's a time thing. If I agreed I would of changed.
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Well I agree....if your taper bar has the wrap groove already machined into it, you're certainly saving yourself that extra 10 minutes of work grinding it out in the end.
 
I'm failing to see the validity of this thread. If there was never a problem & you were happy with your technique, why would you care how anybody else does it? And why ask for opinions if all you want to do is debate the differences when you have no intentions of changing your method?
 
Graciocues said:
Building a taper bar with the wrap groove is a great idea. Thanks.
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No problem...because of the different wrap thicknesses, the ones I've seen were about .019 deep and then once you get ready to install the wrap you may have to sand and clean it up to fit.
But whatever floats your boat for your situation.
GL....
 
Since I dip my cues instead of spray, I cut my wrap groove after the finish has been applied. I have tried cutting before finish and doing a double dip (front up to the wrap groove, dry, butt sleeve to the wrap groove, dry), but prefer to just dip a solid tapered cue. Taking .020 off of a shaft at near finished size (.532) is maybe a little aggressive for me, but I don't worry about taking .020 off of 1.040 to 1.210. Any wood can move at any time , correct seasoning certainly diminishes movement, as well as light cuts and taking the appropriate time between cuts.

Anyone that knows all the right things that should work with wood will also know that, at the end of the day, it's still a crap shoot.

Thanks to the guys here at AZ. Much of the cue knowledge I work with did not have to come through the experiences of wasted time and materials, it came by listening.

My 2 cents,
Alan
 
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BarenbruggeCues said:
Definitely more than one way to skin a cat but if you're worried about the butt moving after a 12 inch long .020 deep cut, I think you may have bigger problems with your handle wood than you know. Maybe I'm wrong but if your handle is moving after cutting a little groove in it, it's already full of tension and is a bomb waiting to go off whether you groove it or not. Not a good idea to grind it all out in one pass but I've never had much problem shaving it down in 4 consecutive passes. Finish the cue and square the corners right before installing the wrap.
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Hi,

I agree with Dave about worrying about a .020 cut challenging the stability of a handle. I personally don't believe that a handle should be built by just cutting tenons on each end. To me it's too dangerous. I don't knock anyone that does it that way but I hear a lot of nervous posts about things moving around. I have cored every handle on every cue I have made and I have never experienced any movement thereafter. Never!

I guess that the guys that don't core are very careful about taking light cuts and waiting between cuts to watch for movement. Coring is so easy and fast I simply can't think of any reason not to core and gorilla glue the components. The gorilla glue has an expansion coefficient of 5X and a half life of 2 thousand years. It might be that some cue lathes don't have the horsepower, I don't know. Before I bought my big metal lathe, I had a cue making lathe that could barely drill a large hole because of lack of power. It would have never cored hardwood. I sold it!.

I like coring and never worry. I cut my wrap groove in 3 passes in about 15 minutes total time.

Rick G
 
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qbilder said:
I'm failing to see the validity of this thread. If there was never a problem & you were happy with your technique, why would you care how anybody else does it? And why ask for opinions if all you want to do is debate the differences when you have no intentions of changing your method?
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I started this thread to ask a question. My wrap groove takes more time than I like so I wanted to see if I could tune up my technique. Cutting it once at the end could speed thing up but I didn't read anything that would push me in that direction.

A custom taper bar is the answer to speed up my process. I thank Barenbrugge for the great idea.

This thread was on topic and the posts were informative. Your posts start talking about the question asked, then go off topic and by the time you're finished you're telling us how great your cues are and then throw in a few jabs to discredit other builder's possible techniques. TELL ME, PLEASE, who cuts their butt tenon in one cut? What lead you to the assumption my wrap sections warp? The simple fact that I asked for opinions??? Seriously! WTF

I often read how your customers are dissatisfied with the service or respect they do or do not get from you. That is completely your business and I couldn't care less how you run your "business", HONESTLY!
But as a builder I have a complaint too. Your insinuations that builder's cues are problematic or downright falling apart is rude and completely inappropriate. Your basis for these comments is what? What you are doing is trying to plant a seed of doubt in the reader's minds. Its not too hard to see that.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who reads between your lines. You show no respect for your peers. (Am I presumptuous in calling myself your peer?) LOL ...just thinking out loud.
 
I leave my tenon oversized & then take a 2nd cut just before I join the handle to the forearm. I cut the wrap groove in one pass, with the router, when I take my final taper cut...JER
 
I usually cut mine right after the finish cut, in one pass before sealing it. I haven't had a problem yet, not saying I won't though. My problem is cleaning it up after. It always seems to chip the finish just a little when cleaning up the edge. I'm now cutting it sharp before sealing or finish, putting electrical tape up to the edge then removing the tape and cleaning it everytime I sand a coat of sealer or finish. More work but seems to fix the issue.
Dave
 
Properly prepared wood seems to be more important then when. This isn't the first time wood preparation is more critical then technique.

In the future when somebody changes their mind to add a wrap at the very end I'll feel comfortable cutting it.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Rick, did DPK core his handles ?
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Joey,

No, I don't think so. I don't think Mike Bender does either but I may be wrong.

There was a misunderstanding in my shop about this that I just found out about when I bought those Omega Blanks. My partner Ray worked at Omega and when we first started making cues I thought he had said that's the way they did it in the Waconda Shop.

I bought the gun drill and started coring handle with a 18" dowel from the A-Joint to the butt. Ray being the stoic guy that he is never said squat about it. I even advertised the Omega Blanks as cored cues on ebay before Ray told me they were not cored.

I don't mean to say not coring is bad because if top cue makers in the world do that, it is a great testimony to the practice of tenons on handles. I just like to core and have had great results. I own Main Street Billiards and I have been watching 90% of my cues through the first 5 years of our production and so far so good.

I talked to a cue maker who visited Mike's shop. I asked him about this detail and he said he saw a bunch of handles hanging with big radii between the tenon and the handle OD. I think he cuts them on his table saw and leaves the big radius to turn in later. Omega cut their wrap groove on the table saw tapering machine and it wold make sense that cutting handles would be a good practice.

Again all of this is here say.

Rick

If you look closely you can see the groove cut on this Omega Blank that had been roughed with the saw machine. My saw machines have dial indicators on them that repeats dimensions perfectly. I am in the process of moving my shop right now and I plan to cut my wrap grooves with the butt table saw machine when I make my next batch.

P1050938.jpg
 
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Dave38 said:
I usually cut mine right after the finish cut, in one pass before sealing it. I haven't had a problem yet, not saying I won't though. My problem is cleaning it up after. It always seems to chip the finish just a little when cleaning up the edge. I'm now cutting it sharp before sealing or finish, putting electrical tape up to the edge then removing the tape and cleaning it everytime I sand a coat of sealer or finish. More work but seems to fix the issue.
Dave
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Your tool has to be sharp....I mean sharp, sharp or you'll have problems. I have one tool dedicated for squaring the groove. I prefer doing it this way because I can't stand the reflection on the cue looking rounded when it meets up with the wrap. Maybe just me, but it looks cheap in my mind.
 
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