When do you cut your wrap groove?

Graciocues

Graciocues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When do you cut your wrap groove?

I've noticed each builder cuts his wrap groove at a different point in the build. At what point do you cut your groove? Why? Is there a difference?
 
it depends so far if im doing a full splice its the last few cuts i take after the seal coat, or if im joining the handle to the forearm ill already have it close to size before assembly and after assemble take my final passes and get it just right.

but its usually during the last couple months (3 passes or so) of the cue for me.
 
Right after the first pass on the assembly.
Only around .030 though as I want the option of leaving the handle and sleeve thicker if needed .
I just can't imagine cutting that groove when the forearm is near final size. Too much wood to take out on one pass.
 
I cut it immediately after the final cut. By that time, if i'm worried about warpage or stress then I shouldn't be completing the cue, anyway. And thus far, I haven't had any that warped. I'm not exactly doing a lot of wraps, maybe 2-3 per year. But over the last decade, it adds up to several cues so i'm pretty confident.
 
I go ahead and cut the wrap groove when the cue is about .050" oversized and the inlays have been put in. I want to limit the cue to one set of stresses at a time. So it is inlays first and then after each pass I take the same amount off the wrap groove.
 
Looking at the cues in progress pictures made me ask. Some cut the groove after clear and some clear with it cut.

Large cuts can stress relieve the grain so I'm against cutting it close to final size. My wrap groove is cut in proportion on all cut.
 
Graciocues said:
Looking at the cues in progress pictures made me ask. Some cut the groove after clear and some clear with it cut.

Large cuts can stress relieve the grain so I'm against cutting it close to final size. My wrap groove is cut in proportion on all cut.
Click to expand...

I don't think cored-forearms move that much anyway but maple handles might move if taking an MM off in one pass. I like taking 3 passes on the handle stock before assembly. The drilled forearm and coring dowels ( final size already ) shouldn't move much ( the cored forearm might expand and contract but the dowel really shouldn't anymore ).
So, like you I just like cutting that groove early but a little oversized.
Some leathers are about .025 thick even.
 
i know a cue maker that doesnt cut his wrap groove until after he has completed the finish on his cues that way he can get the wrap to match up perfect. i just havent tried it this way yet
 
Are you talking cutting the wrap groove or squaring the ends?

I cut the groove with every pass but I hold it .25 short at each end. Then I finish them up after the clear is on.

Graciocues said:
Looking at the cues in progress pictures made me ask. Some cut the groove after clear and some clear with it cut.

Large cuts can stress relieve the grain so I'm against cutting it close to final size. My wrap groove is cut in proportion on all cut.
Click to expand...
 
Both.
I asked to get an idea what the majority was doing. Looking at pictures and talking to builders I've noticed this is another step in building that we all do different.
Is there a better or easier way???
 
Hi,

1. Cue at final taper dimension
2. Seal with 4 coats of epoxy
3. Wait 2 days
4. Sand flat
5. Cut taper groove to - .020 per side from finish with live tooling (bow tie router)
6. Tape handle on both ends (green tape)
7. Spray finish
8. Wait 2 days
9. Wet sand and buffing
10. Install wrap

Rick G
 
Graciocues said:
Both.
I asked to get an idea what the majority was doing. Looking at pictures and talking to builders I've noticed this is another step in building that we all do different.
Is there a better or easier way???
Click to expand...

I don't think there's a better or easier way. I will say that i'm much more confident with a cored handle vs. a solid maple handle. For one thing, a wrap area is never sealed as well as a finished area. I use 12" handles & core with 16.25" x .775" pieces. One thing I noticed with solid handles was that when cutting the tenons for the butt sleeve, that wood often moves after cut & throws off the center. With a cored handle where the core extends 4.25" out from the back, this is not an issue because there's no severe cut to relieve stress & cause movement.

It always surprised me that builders claim to cut their woods down slowly and are afraid of cutting the wrap groove after final cut. But then they turn around and cut the last 4-5" of the handle down to .75" all at once. Cue builders are certainly some eccentric minded folks. And some of the stuff I read makes me wonder if people really do what they write, or they are just blowing smoke. If there were ever a task that people make a lot harder than it actually needs to be, it's building cues. LOL Just thinking aloud ...
 
qbilder said:
I don't think there's a better or easier way. I will say that i'm much more confident with a cored handle vs. a solid maple handle. For one thing, a wrap area is never sealed as well as a finished area. I use 12" handles & core with 16.25" x .775" pieces. One thing I noticed with solid handles was that when cutting the tenons for the butt sleeve, that wood often moves after cut & throws off the center. With a cored handle where the core extends 4.25" out from the back, this is not an issue because there's no severe cut to relieve stress & cause movement.

It always surprised me that builders claim to cut their woods down slowly and are afraid of cutting the wrap groove after final cut. But then they turn around and cut the last 4-5" of the handle down to .75" all at once. Cue builders are certainly some eccentric minded folks. And some of the stuff I read makes me wonder if people really do what they write, or they are just blowing smoke. If there were ever a task that people make a lot harder than it actually needs to be, it's building cues. LOL Just thinking aloud ...
Click to expand...

I don't think many builders cut their butt tenon in one pass. If they do they'll quickly learn not to. The core and tenon in the butt sleeve are a different subject.


Are you saying? If the wood is old enough it won't stress relive? If it's cored it won't stress relieve? My building experience tells me making a cut at final size as deep as a wrap groove can create problems.
After saying that I need to ask. What are the reasons not to cut the wrap groove over time like all the other parts we prepare over time.

.......................................................................................................................
"If there were ever a task that people make a lot harder than it actually needs to be, it's building cues. LOL Just thinking aloud"
.......................................................................................................................
It surprises me you say this. You talk about scientific building secrets and you post these words often.



What goes on behind closed doors??????? Every builder has their secrets.

One secret I don't have is the amount of time I put into each cue.
 
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Definitely more than one way to skin a cat but if you're worried about the butt moving after a 12 inch long .020 deep cut, I think you may have bigger problems with your handle wood than you know. Maybe I'm wrong but if your handle is moving after cutting a little groove in it, it's already full of tension and is a bomb waiting to go off whether you groove it or not. Not a good idea to grind it all out in one pass but I've never had much problem shaving it down in 4 consecutive passes. Finish the cue and square the corners right before installing the wrap.
 
Graciocues said:
I don't think many builders cut their butt tenon in one pass. If they do they'll quickly learn not to. The core and tenon in the butt sleeve are a different subject.


Are you saying? If the wood is old enough it won't stress relive? If it's cored it won't stress relieve? My building experience tells me making a cut at final size as deep as a wrap groove can create problems.
After saying that I need to ask. What are the reasons not to cut the wrap groove over time like all the other parts we prepare over time.

.......................................................................................................................
"If there were ever a task that people make a lot harder than it actually needs to be, it's building cues. LOL Just thinking aloud"
.......................................................................................................................
It surprises me you say this. You talk about scientific building secrets and you post these words often.



What goes on behind closed doors??????? You never know.
Click to expand...

I never said that. In fact, I expressed my disdain for the idea of taking incremental cuts only to throw it away by cutting a butt sleeve tenon in one session, because of stress. You claim to think most guys don't do it, but I haven't heard anybody refute the notion besides you & you never explained how you actually do it. Regardless, I stated my technique of avoiding internal stress via coring. And yes, I do believe PROPERLY cored woods will not move due to internal stress. Coring by definition means removing the core of a piece of wood to eliminate internal stress. There's more to it than drilling a hole & filling it, as you should know. You have to know what to core with & what size. And you have to know how to choose wood that is naturally stable. Unless you know this stuff, coring will be no good. But if you do know this stuff and thereby core correctly, then you'll not have to worry about movement due to internal stress.

That brings me to a question. In your building experiences, what problems are created by making a cut at final size as deep as a wrap groove? Exactly how much are you cutting for a wrap? I have no troubles doing it, and explained why. My cues speak for themselves, always have. If there was a problem then it should have revealed itself by now.

I never said there was a problem with cutting in increments. Not once. Never. I'm not even sure what you are asking about. The wrap groove is not a deep cut for me. I don't install a wrap thicker than .020" and my finish is .010", so i'm not taking a huge cut to make a wrap groove. Why would I have anything to worry about?

Cuemaking is a science. You bet your ass it is. Rocket science, no. It's pretty simple stuff but requires exacting standards & methods. The science is learning and experimentation. Once you have that knowledge, building a cue is applied science. The science is to build a cue that plays well & lasts. My science is simplicity. Yours, maybe not. I'm not concerned with how you build cues, honestly. My cues last & play well. I'm never shy about discussing my methods. Some of it is my own & I prefer to keep it as such. Doesn't mean it's not simple. You are twisting & misinterpreting what I write & I sense some sarcasm in it. Hopefully i'm wrong about that.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Definitely more than one way to skin a cat but if you're worried about the butt moving after a 12 inch long .020 deep cut, I think you may have bigger problems with your handle wood than you know. Maybe I'm wrong but if your handle is moving after cutting a little groove in it, it's already full of tension and is a bomb waiting to go off whether you groove it or not. Not a good idea to grind it all out in one pass but I've never had much problem shaving it down in 4 consecutive passes. Finish the cue and square the corners right before installing the wrap.
Click to expand...

You beat me to it & like always, said it in a simpler way.
 
qbilder said:
I never said that. In fact, I expressed my disdain for the idea of taking incremental cuts only to throw it away by cutting a butt sleeve tenon in one session, because of stress. You claim to think most guys don't do it, but I haven't heard anybody refute the notion besides you & you never explained how you actually do it. Regardless, I stated my technique of avoiding internal stress via coring. And yes, I do believe PROPERLY cored woods will not move due to internal stress. Coring by definition means removing the core of a piece of wood to eliminate internal stress. There's more to it than drilling a hole & filling it, as you should know. You have to know what to core with & what size. And you have to know how to choose wood that is naturally stable. Unless you know this stuff, coring will be no good. But if you do know this stuff and thereby core correctly, then you'll not have to worry about movement due to internal stress.

That brings me to a question. In your building experiences, what problems are created by making a cut at final size as deep as a wrap groove? Exactly how much are you cutting for a wrap? I have no troubles doing it, and explained why. My cues speak for themselves, always have. If there was a problem then it should have revealed itself by now.

I never said there was a problem with cutting in increments. Not once. Never. I'm not even sure what you are asking about. The wrap groove is not a deep cut for me. I don't install a wrap thicker than .020" and my finish is .010", so i'm not taking a huge cut to make a wrap groove. Why would I have anything to worry about?

Cuemaking is a science. You bet your ass it is. Rocket science, no. It's pretty simple stuff but requires exacting standards & methods. The science is learning and experimentation. Once you have that knowledge, building a cue is applied science. The science is to build a cue that plays well & lasts. My science is simplicity. Yours, maybe not. I'm not concerned with how you build cues, honestly. My cues last & play well. I'm never shy about discussing my methods. Some of it is my own & I prefer to keep it as such. Doesn't mean it's not simple. You are twisting & misinterpreting what I write & I sense some sarcasm in it. Hopefully i'm wrong about that.
Click to expand...


This question was meant for everybody. "What are the reasons not to cut the wrap groove over time like all the other parts we prepare over time".

What's the theory behind it?

..................................................................................................................
"I haven't heard anybody refute the notion"
The thread is about wrap grooves not butt tenons. New thread coming and we'll find out what the builders butts are like.


........................................................................................................................
"what problems are created by making a cut at final size as deep as a wrap groove?"

I don't cut my wrap groove at the end so I can't answer this question.

This is the reason I started the thread.

...............................................................................................................
"I never said there was a problem with cutting in increments. Not once. Never. I'm not even sure what you are asking about."

You lost me on this one.
 
BarenbruggeCues said:
Definitely more than one way to skin a cat but if you're worried about the butt moving after a 12 inch long .020 deep cut, I think you may have bigger problems with your handle wood than you know. Maybe I'm wrong but if your handle is moving after cutting a little groove in it, it's already full of tension and is a bomb waiting to go off whether you groove it or not. Not a good idea to grind it all out in one pass but I've never had much problem shaving it down in 4 consecutive passes. Finish the cue and square the corners right before installing the wrap.
Click to expand...

I don't cut the wrap at final size so I have no idea if it will creat problems.

I don't finish cut my shafts or butts with a .020" or deeper cut so why would I treat the handle differently. I think I just answered my question. I'll stick with my technique.
 
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Graciocues said:
I don't cut the wrap at final size so I have no idea if it will creat problems.

I don't finish cut my shafts or butts with a .020" or deeper cut so why would I treat the handle differently. I think I just answered my question. I'll stick with my technique.
Click to expand...

I never said I cut a .020 deep cut on a finish cut. If my way has worked for me well for 15 years why would I change?
Like I said...there's more than one way to skin the cat. I know guys that are cutting the wrap groove with every cut they make on the butt and know guys that do it exactly how I do it. Your obviously having a problem doing it the way you were or you wouldn't have brought it up.
If your having problems change your procedure. It's a pretty simple technique. If I'm doing something that isn't working out the way I have envisioned it, I change. If it's working out, I don't change.
You certainly have a variety of ideas to work with from the posters here.
GL
 
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