Johnnybgood
Banned
Thanks Glen!
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When is a pool pocket too tight?
- Thread starter Straightpool_99
- Start date
Johnnybgood
Banned
When is a Pocket too tight......
It’s a trick question. There is no right answer. My initial response would be when you have to alter your stroke to fit a table. Tight pockets are irrelevant hitting the pocket dead center from a straight in shot.
Tight pockets become an issue when the angle in which you are shooting into the pockets only allows you to shoot into the facings to make a shot. As you tighten the pockets up you narrow your angles and therefore see less pocket and facing. You are no longer shooting into a pocket you are shooting solely at the facing. Which makes the margin of error much less. Most balls I see rattle in the corners come from hitting the rail first or catching the corner of the facing on the way in. When that happens then and only then do things like dirty balls, new/clean felt, speed and spin play into the equation and can make the difference between a ball going in or not.
So when is a pocket to tight? When you have to alter your stroke to get a cue ball into shape and consider your angle of play for your next shot to the extreme that you know you can’t stroke a ball in your normal fashion for zone shape.
I have said it several times, tightening pockets alters your stroke and alters the game. You have to play a softer yet more precise game. Which equates to boring.
If you are a slow rolling player that is used to that type of style then you will benefit from tight pockets. It is also why diamonds play as springy as they do. Less stroke slow rolling yet springy cushions and a fast bed can compensate for lack of stroke.
Ever notice how fast a snooker table is?
You can never truly answer this question in till strict standards are adhered to and the pockets are the same no matter what table you play on. Unfortunately I don’t see this happening any time soon. Sad state of affairs.
There is your answer.
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It’s a trick question. There is no right answer. My initial response would be when you have to alter your stroke to fit a table. Tight pockets are irrelevant hitting the pocket dead center from a straight in shot.
Tight pockets become an issue when the angle in which you are shooting into the pockets only allows you to shoot into the facings to make a shot. As you tighten the pockets up you narrow your angles and therefore see less pocket and facing. You are no longer shooting into a pocket you are shooting solely at the facing. Which makes the margin of error much less. Most balls I see rattle in the corners come from hitting the rail first or catching the corner of the facing on the way in. When that happens then and only then do things like dirty balls, new/clean felt, speed and spin play into the equation and can make the difference between a ball going in or not.
So when is a pocket to tight? When you have to alter your stroke to get a cue ball into shape and consider your angle of play for your next shot to the extreme that you know you can’t stroke a ball in your normal fashion for zone shape.
I have said it several times, tightening pockets alters your stroke and alters the game. You have to play a softer yet more precise game. Which equates to boring.
If you are a slow rolling player that is used to that type of style then you will benefit from tight pockets. It is also why diamonds play as springy as they do. Less stroke slow rolling yet springy cushions and a fast bed can compensate for lack of stroke.
Ever notice how fast a snooker table is?
You can never truly answer this question in till strict standards are adhered to and the pockets are the same no matter what table you play on. Unfortunately I don’t see this happening any time soon. Sad state of affairs.
There is your answer.
Sent from my iPhone using AzBilliards Forums
If you measure that pocket correctly, at the opening ... it would be about 4" which IMHO is just perfect!!
Take 2 younger players of equal pool skills and equal potential (natural pool talent to improve), who match up equally. Then, for one year, one of them practices 20 hours a week on a standard 5-inch pocket table, whereas the other one practices for the same 20 hours a week on a Diamond 4-1/2 inch pocket table. Both players practice/play against the same quality level of opponents. Then after that one year of practice, they match up again. They'll play one match on a 5-inch pocket table, then another match on a 4-1/2" pocket table. Who would you take to win the matches, if you had the choice? I know who I would take - I rest my case.
And who would you pick if player 2 went and practiced 60 hours a week on those 5" pockets while player 1 was betting the 4 1/2" pockets would be to his advantage so therefore he only practiced the 20 hours a week and no more....who do you pick now?
In that case, you're no longer comparing apples to apples, so you just proved my point.
And yet, you missed my point, that being practice make a player better, not the size of the pockets.
I'm surprised that on these 5 pages of different thoughts and opinions no one had mentioned yet the very good example what could happen when the pockets are too tight. Had anyone watched World Pool Series 8-ball Grand finale 2017 several weeks ago where Kaci was a winner?
If I remember correct it was a 1/4 or 1/8 Alex Pagulayan vs Dennis Orcollo. Had anyone watch that match because that is the best example what can happen when the pockets are too tight, to have the ball on the break is quite difficult and you have to watch some tactic battles because none of the players wants to take a risk knowing once he fails to make a ball on the break giving an open position to his opponent or misses a shot failing to run out he loses the game. That was the first time I watched such an 8-ball game on that level. Do you think such great players are not good enough in pocketing the balls? But under such the conditions on such level they start to play different game because they start to count the possibilities what if... And that is not that kind of pool I love to watch or play.
And then was the semi Jason Shaw vs Petri Makkonen. One of the best shooters in the game nowadays lost on that Rasson table and in my opinion one of the reasons it was more difficult to win playing and being the first number in the match. It is easier to win the game after your opponent give you a chance failing to make the ball on the break or missing a shot trying to solve the problem on the table or... If you did not watch those matches better do it and you will get many answers.
BTW it was a european final Kaci vs Makkonen. Do you think european players are more successful players because they practice and playing in competitions on the tables with tighter pockets? And that is one of the reasons they won in Mosconi Cup so many years? I don't think so. If someone asks me as a coach to rank main factors to become a successful pool player practicing on the tables with tighter pockets would not be somewhere at the very top.
For me when I play, watch or coach people espesially when it comes to the kids who are the future for the game "Having fun aspect" is crucial. When I started to play I remember myself watching the battle Efren vs Fransisco on 1999 WC in Cardiff when Efren being 1:3 down came to the table and ran 9 consecutive racks some of them were just amazing. That is the game I love and what drived me to practice and play more and more and helped me to improve and I'm sure the same is with the kids. You just lose them if it will be no fun any more...
If I remember correct it was a 1/4 or 1/8 Alex Pagulayan vs Dennis Orcollo. Had anyone watch that match because that is the best example what can happen when the pockets are too tight, to have the ball on the break is quite difficult and you have to watch some tactic battles because none of the players wants to take a risk knowing once he fails to make a ball on the break giving an open position to his opponent or misses a shot failing to run out he loses the game. That was the first time I watched such an 8-ball game on that level. Do you think such great players are not good enough in pocketing the balls? But under such the conditions on such level they start to play different game because they start to count the possibilities what if... And that is not that kind of pool I love to watch or play.
And then was the semi Jason Shaw vs Petri Makkonen. One of the best shooters in the game nowadays lost on that Rasson table and in my opinion one of the reasons it was more difficult to win playing and being the first number in the match. It is easier to win the game after your opponent give you a chance failing to make the ball on the break or missing a shot trying to solve the problem on the table or... If you did not watch those matches better do it and you will get many answers.
BTW it was a european final Kaci vs Makkonen. Do you think european players are more successful players because they practice and playing in competitions on the tables with tighter pockets? And that is one of the reasons they won in Mosconi Cup so many years? I don't think so. If someone asks me as a coach to rank main factors to become a successful pool player practicing on the tables with tighter pockets would not be somewhere at the very top.
For me when I play, watch or coach people espesially when it comes to the kids who are the future for the game "Having fun aspect" is crucial. When I started to play I remember myself watching the battle Efren vs Fransisco on 1999 WC in Cardiff when Efren being 1:3 down came to the table and ran 9 consecutive racks some of them were just amazing. That is the game I love and what drived me to practice and play more and more and helped me to improve and I'm sure the same is with the kids. You just lose them if it will be no fun any more...
There's always a minority of players wishing pool would change in their favor to much tighter pockets in an effort to make up for their inability to win on a more standard size pocket table. They honestly feel their odds of winning go up as the pockets get tighter, kind of like Earl when he claims he's the best in the world and no one can beat him on a 10' table, only that don't explain how an 18 yr old kid by the name of Landon beat him 15-4 on that very size of table that made him look foolish on. The problem with the tightass pocket players is that they fail to learn how to play on 4 1/2" pockets and therefore leave that part of their game practicing out and without it, they fail to bring the game winning skills needed to be sucessful in major tournament's. Position play choices decreases as the pockets get tighter, aggressive play decreases, safety play starts increasing which in turn breaks then momentum of play as well as adds increased frusteration when losing. To me, the sole purpose of a table with tightass pockets is to make up for a players inabilities to win on tables with bigger pockets. If they HAD the skills to win, it wouldn't matter what size the pockets are in the first place.
Here's that great display by Efren: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNwWqrTMa7Y.
Reyes was down 1-3. Bustamante scratched on the break. Reyes ran out that game then produced a B&R 8-pack to lead 10-3. He missed a combo (his 3rd miss of the match) after the break in Game 14 and Bustamante ran out to get it to 10-4. But a Bustamante miss in the next game (his only miss of the match) let Reyes play a safety that led to his winning that game and the match 11-4.
And just think about it for a minute, with how much the rules have changed since then, with racking the balls, break boxes, alternating breaks....Efren would have never been able to put on that display of skills....such a shame today!!!
Exactly wright and I remember all of that fairly good and still have those tapes ("my coach's gift") I watched in 2000:wink:.
My point it was amazing and interesting to watch such a performance. I love pool more than any other billiard game for its creativity, variety of games, possibilities and so on and the kids like the same. If there will be more such tactic battles like I mentioned above I don't expect more kids watching such a boring performance = less kids come and try to play the game. But there is very little pool televised anyway so that is not a big deal and unfortunately I don't expect my favorite game becomes as popular and successful as snooker in GB:frown:.
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There is no break box in the world 9-ball today.https://youtu.be/oQBp8ppJMks?t=2129
Efren ran his 9 racks on a very loose GC 3 table. There were so packages ran in that tournament. Iirc Efren and Ralph S ran 6-packs during the tournament too.
Efren sure had some incredible games during the days of GC3's ( 4-time US Open finals in a row, some incredible games at the Sands, at the Bike and PBT tours ).
I still have a vhs tape of his finals game against CJ Wiley at the Bike. Played on black GC3. Awesome shooting by both players.
Imho 4.5" corners at 140* should be standard.:grin:
Efren ran his 9 racks on a very loose GC 3 table. There were so packages ran in that tournament. Iirc Efren and Ralph S ran 6-packs during the tournament too.
Efren sure had some incredible games during the days of GC3's ( 4-time US Open finals in a row, some incredible games at the Sands, at the Bike and PBT tours ).
I still have a vhs tape of his finals game against CJ Wiley at the Bike. Played on black GC3. Awesome shooting by both players.
Imho 4.5" corners at 140* should be standard.:grin:
When the game stops being enjoyable and you just lose interest in trying to play your best.
That's when the pockets are too tight and so obviously, that will vary by individual & skill level.
For some people it may be 4 1/4" pockets, for others it could be 4.5" & for, some even 4 7/8".
With tighter pockets, you have to focus more & tighter pockets also distinguish the best players.
Personally, a perfect table is a 10' with 4 3/8" pockets and you better have the game to tame it.
Matt B.
That's when the pockets are too tight and so obviously, that will vary by individual & skill level.
For some people it may be 4 1/4" pockets, for others it could be 4.5" & for, some even 4 7/8".
With tighter pockets, you have to focus more & tighter pockets also distinguish the best players.
Personally, a perfect table is a 10' with 4 3/8" pockets and you better have the game to tame it.
Matt B.
Johnnybgood
Banned
So that extra 1/8” make a difference on a 10’? That’s a 1/16” on either side depending on the angle you shoot from. I find it comical at times what people say.
But, this really isn’t a night for disputes.
MERRY CHRISTMAS!
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