When Ronnie Allen re-invented 1 hole.
- Thread starter stolz2
- Start date
How good was Ronnie?
Do you really want to know. First of all you are getting the straight scoop from Freddie and Grady. I am in complete agreement with everything they said. I always hated it when guys laughed about Fats not being able to play.
He not only could play, he matched up better than anyone before or since.
Fats played very strong One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions. Not the best at any one of these games, but good enough to get the cash over and over. I saw him win some amazing games like the marathon match with my hero Richie Florence, who was giving him 8-7 and went down the tube for 25K in the 60's. Big money back then!
Or the time he played 3 Cushion with Eddie Robin (He claims never to have played this match. Hello, I saw it!) at the Michigan State Fairgrounds in 1963. Eddie chased Fats all around challenging him to play, and finally Fats said he would play 50 points for $500. Eddie got the money and they played on a back table with a huge crowd sweating it. Eddie got a good lead (6 to 8 pts.) and held it until the score was 47-41. Fats was fidgeting and fussing, but he had gotten in stroke on the table.
He began to run billiards, talking non stop about the young whippersnapper who had hustled him. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 he ran, laughing, giggling and needling Eddie. Before the last billiard, he delivered a little speech to Eddie about messing with the Fat man, and how he was doomed to failure. Then he made number 9 and picked up the money. After that little exhibition, I loved Fats and used to carry his cue for him with honor. He knew me for many years, but never called me by name, always saying "Where is the little man?", meaning me. I used to read him the menu in restaurants, being as how he was basically illiterate. I could talk about Fats for days. He was truly "One Of A Kind".
Oh, I forgot, this thread is about Ronnie. Well, once again I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I believe Ronnie in his heyday would have been the favorite over Efren the Great. Don't get me wrong, it would have been a helluva match, but Ronnie knew too much and had to much firepower. As good as Efren kicks balls, he is not in Ronnie's league when it comes to kicking in One Pocket. Of course, Efren would have learned from Ronnie, and fast I'm sure. Bottom line, I think Ronnie would have confused Efren and yes, even sharked him a little. No one could talk like Ronnie.
I traveled with Ronnie off and on over the years and he never failed to amaze me (and teach me). I saw him at his best. Grady is correct, that like Efren, Ronnie had to spot the whole pool universe. Right on about giving Jersey Red 9-8 and winning, and 8-7 and losing. And only Ed Kelly played at the same level as Red. Playing one handed, Ronnie could beat any decent One Pocket player even. And if a good player gave him the break one handed, it was sayonnara.
Only player I ever saw beat Ronnie was Marvin Henderson, and it was right after Ronnie won the World title in Vegas. They played in the Billiard Den in Hollywood, CA where Marvin had hung out for months and knew the tables perfectly. Ronnie came in cold and Marvin made him start after about a three ball warm-up. Ronnie thought he could win anyway, but Marvin (who was a great player!) beat him in a Race to Six for six thousand (like 6-4).
Ronnie tried to get a rematch but Marvin was too busy enjoying the spoils of victory, if you get my drift. Marvin had the most beautiful stroke I ever saw, like a musician playing a fine instrument.
Okay, now what could Ronnie do on a pool table. For starters he could run ten and out from anywhere (he was usually giving up 10-6 or something like that). And I mean from ANYWHERE! He might be buried in front of his hole and kick two or three rails into the pack (hard) and knock a ball into his pocket, and open up the pack and run out. If you saw it once you were amazed. But after seeing this kind of stuff dozens of times, you began to understand he was a little different than the rest of us.
Nobody understood the pack like Ronnie. He knew how to not only kick balls toward his hole, but how to make other balls funnel that way too. Leaving him behind the pack did not give you any security. And he banked maybe one ball under Bugs. And shot combinations better than anyone who ever lived. When Ronnie ran ten and out, usually there would be three or four remarkable shots in the run. The kind most players would just pass on.
And Ronnie had heart and nerve. The mark of all great players. He did not dog it for the bet. In fact the higher he played, the stronger his game became. You can tell Keith learned from watching Ronnie (and Richie). Two guys with more heart I've never seen, this side of Cornbread. If Ronnie had to make a long straight in off the end rail to win a match, you could bet the ranch that ball was going in the pocket. Ronnie was deadly accurate when shooting at his hole, cut shots, combos, billiards, everything went when he was shooting.
Are you beginning to understand what made Ronnie the greatest? He always said that the best player he ever saw was Clem. I never saw Clem play, just sit around in Mergards in Cincinnati and bet on games. I heard Clem and White Rags were the best before Ronnie, but I didn't see them.
And yes, I happened to be there when Ronnie and Danny played for 20K in 1988 in Phoenix. It was kinda Ronnie's last hurrah. He practiced hard for the match, working out with Jack Cooney for several weeks at $50 a game.
And it was a great match, with Ronnie playing brilliantly to beat Danny on his home court and table. Don't let anyone tell you it was fake, because it was the real deal. Danny took it hard when he lost, going into the office and not coming out for hours.
Well, I guess I could make this the first chapter in a book. Hope I didn't bore you.
Do you really want to know. First of all you are getting the straight scoop from Freddie and Grady. I am in complete agreement with everything they said. I always hated it when guys laughed about Fats not being able to play.
He not only could play, he matched up better than anyone before or since.
Fats played very strong One Pocket, Banks and Three Cushions. Not the best at any one of these games, but good enough to get the cash over and over. I saw him win some amazing games like the marathon match with my hero Richie Florence, who was giving him 8-7 and went down the tube for 25K in the 60's. Big money back then!
Or the time he played 3 Cushion with Eddie Robin (He claims never to have played this match. Hello, I saw it!) at the Michigan State Fairgrounds in 1963. Eddie chased Fats all around challenging him to play, and finally Fats said he would play 50 points for $500. Eddie got the money and they played on a back table with a huge crowd sweating it. Eddie got a good lead (6 to 8 pts.) and held it until the score was 47-41. Fats was fidgeting and fussing, but he had gotten in stroke on the table.
He began to run billiards, talking non stop about the young whippersnapper who had hustled him. 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 he ran, laughing, giggling and needling Eddie. Before the last billiard, he delivered a little speech to Eddie about messing with the Fat man, and how he was doomed to failure. Then he made number 9 and picked up the money. After that little exhibition, I loved Fats and used to carry his cue for him with honor. He knew me for many years, but never called me by name, always saying "Where is the little man?", meaning me. I used to read him the menu in restaurants, being as how he was basically illiterate. I could talk about Fats for days. He was truly "One Of A Kind".
Oh, I forgot, this thread is about Ronnie. Well, once again I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I believe Ronnie in his heyday would have been the favorite over Efren the Great. Don't get me wrong, it would have been a helluva match, but Ronnie knew too much and had to much firepower. As good as Efren kicks balls, he is not in Ronnie's league when it comes to kicking in One Pocket. Of course, Efren would have learned from Ronnie, and fast I'm sure. Bottom line, I think Ronnie would have confused Efren and yes, even sharked him a little. No one could talk like Ronnie.
I traveled with Ronnie off and on over the years and he never failed to amaze me (and teach me). I saw him at his best. Grady is correct, that like Efren, Ronnie had to spot the whole pool universe. Right on about giving Jersey Red 9-8 and winning, and 8-7 and losing. And only Ed Kelly played at the same level as Red. Playing one handed, Ronnie could beat any decent One Pocket player even. And if a good player gave him the break one handed, it was sayonnara.
Only player I ever saw beat Ronnie was Marvin Henderson, and it was right after Ronnie won the World title in Vegas. They played in the Billiard Den in Hollywood, CA where Marvin had hung out for months and knew the tables perfectly. Ronnie came in cold and Marvin made him start after about a three ball warm-up. Ronnie thought he could win anyway, but Marvin (who was a great player!) beat him in a Race to Six for six thousand (like 6-4).
Ronnie tried to get a rematch but Marvin was too busy enjoying the spoils of victory, if you get my drift. Marvin had the most beautiful stroke I ever saw, like a musician playing a fine instrument.
Okay, now what could Ronnie do on a pool table. For starters he could run ten and out from anywhere (he was usually giving up 10-6 or something like that). And I mean from ANYWHERE! He might be buried in front of his hole and kick two or three rails into the pack (hard) and knock a ball into his pocket, and open up the pack and run out. If you saw it once you were amazed. But after seeing this kind of stuff dozens of times, you began to understand he was a little different than the rest of us.
Nobody understood the pack like Ronnie. He knew how to not only kick balls toward his hole, but how to make other balls funnel that way too. Leaving him behind the pack did not give you any security. And he banked maybe one ball under Bugs. And shot combinations better than anyone who ever lived. When Ronnie ran ten and out, usually there would be three or four remarkable shots in the run. The kind most players would just pass on.
And Ronnie had heart and nerve. The mark of all great players. He did not dog it for the bet. In fact the higher he played, the stronger his game became. You can tell Keith learned from watching Ronnie (and Richie). Two guys with more heart I've never seen, this side of Cornbread. If Ronnie had to make a long straight in off the end rail to win a match, you could bet the ranch that ball was going in the pocket. Ronnie was deadly accurate when shooting at his hole, cut shots, combos, billiards, everything went when he was shooting.
Are you beginning to understand what made Ronnie the greatest? He always said that the best player he ever saw was Clem. I never saw Clem play, just sit around in Mergards in Cincinnati and bet on games. I heard Clem and White Rags were the best before Ronnie, but I didn't see them.
And yes, I happened to be there when Ronnie and Danny played for 20K in 1988 in Phoenix. It was kinda Ronnie's last hurrah. He practiced hard for the match, working out with Jack Cooney for several weeks at $50 a game.
And it was a great match, with Ronnie playing brilliantly to beat Danny on his home court and table. Don't let anyone tell you it was fake, because it was the real deal. Danny took it hard when he lost, going into the office and not coming out for hours.
Well, I guess I could make this the first chapter in a book. Hope I didn't bore you.
Grady said:
great post grady, always nice to hear from you. in LA there is a very smart gambler, i wont name him, but when the philipinos were in town one year he accused them all of being "one barrell mcgees" was the way he put it. i must say, from what i have myself witnessed, this is true. i am saying this to back up your thought about efren not standing still for a beating.
i also saw efren practicing with an average A player one day, the guy ran out 3 games and never missed. efren just walked away from the table and stopped practicing with the guy.
ive noticed in the past that if he isnt given an offensive shot for long periods of time, which is rare because he moves so well, he gets really impatient and uncomfortable. people are always commenting on how brilliant a one pocket mind he has. he gets it done with aggressive offense and great execution, and you have to give him all the credit in the world for that, i just stand by the thought that i feel he doesn't have a particularly brilliant overall one pocket mind (he has an unbelieveably brilliant offensive one pockey mind). he does think and execute very well when playing, but for my money take someone like jack cooney (or you grady) and give him efrens ability and i think cooney would take it easily. there are just a few aspects of efrens game that are below many players, namely patience, playing the score well and being engaged in slow, boriing saftey battles. other players are just far above him im these aspects, but he wins with this amazing offense, you really have to give him credit, he makes the game suit his style through his great control of the balls, he wont let the balls go uptable and constantly is creating opportunities for himself. he wins his way, forces the balls into his style of one pocket. again, he deserves all the credit in the world for this. i guess my point for all this (and a common theme of mine), i think people blow his one pocket thinking out of proportion. there are so many players i could name i feel are much more pure and better one pocket thinkers.
so, the last thing i am is knocking efren, i give him credit for what hes done. bruce lee said to be yourself, dont mold your style after any particular player (or fighter). i think efren has done this, he has played one pocket his way and executed well enough to beat everybody. he is the best no doubt. but, he has weaknesses and i feel he plays closer to other top pros than most people think.
thanks for listening! great thread everybody (edit: except for you cuetechasaurus, lol).
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enzo said:
To say that Efren has played one pocket his way to beat everybody (he won the one hole division all four times he entered the DCC Derby) and that there are many players who are better one pocket thinkers in the same breath is, well, confusing. "Better" thinkers according to what/whose standards? How do you know that Efren's is not superior to theirs, judging by the results?
RED NAXELA said:
i agree, it is confusing. one way to put it is if you gave other great one pocket thinkers efrens ability to execute he would lose i feel, they just have superior one pocket minds/temperments in my opinion. he gets it done with execution. i understand your comment though-- and its a good one-- but that's just the way i feel.
also, you guys are right, he has dominated DCC-i have heard this many times, but there are MANY, MANY one pocket tournaments he hasn't won you know?
another great post jay, you are like the MVP in this place, you and grady are imo anyway.
watchez said:
when i was there and that comment was made, efren was playing somebody he had beat up on multiple times with a given spot. he was giving that same spot this night and lost one set, and efren pulled up. thats when this guy yelled out the one barrell comment.
its smart gambling, but if you read gradys and jays threads, there is just something there in ronnie, a willingness to really gamble, that isnt there in efren. im as big an efren fan as the next guy, but that is the truth.
to get back to your point, interestingly enough, when he yelled that out imo he was refering to efren, luat, andam, and bustamante. they were all there. lil alex was there but i dont think this guy was referring to him at all, everybody knows thats not the case.
edit: also for parica it is for sure not the case as well, youre right. he wasnt there either.
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enzo said:
Blah, blah, blah. Anytime the subject of Efren comes up you knock him, and then at the end you say that you aren't knocking him. You are just an Efren hater, come out with it already. You are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you are full of crap, so I'm calling you on it.
To Grady I would also like to say that Billy Incardona should be able to judge one pocket just as you can, you are both known as legends in the game. Billy's views on Efren hold him in much higher regard it seems.
To everyone else, a player in his prime doesn't really mean much, what matters is who stood the test of time. Efren is over the hill and past his prime, and still continues to dominate one pocket. And no, Efren is not an offensive one pocket player. He is an offensive, defensive, creative, and every other aspect of the game he excells at.
To everyone else, a player in his prime doesn't really mean much, what matters is who stood the test of time. Efren is over the hill and past his prime, and still continues to dominate one pocket. And no, Efren is not an offensive one pocket player. He is an offensive, defensive, creative, and every other aspect of the game he excells at.
Ronnie and Efren
Look, I'm not knocking Efren. He's a great player and to borrow a Jack Nicklaus quote about Tiger Woods, "He plays a brand of One Pocket I'm not familiar with." Cardone doesn't say many things that are smart but he did utter this truism about Reyes: "One Pocket is a perfect game for him", meaning his Rotation and Billiard skills stand him in good stead at One Pocket.
I'm probably going to shock many on this respected board by this, which is what I really believe: Cliff is the finest One Pocket player in the world today, IMHO, if a real man's match were made out of it. 15 ahead, even One Pocket, 72 hours or until someone wins the cash. No excuses, no quitting, no casinos within a hundred miles. If I happen to do well in one of the IPT events you can look for me to try to set domething like this up.
While I'm pontificating this fine morning I'd like to say that Greg Sullivan, Steve Booth of the terrific One Pocket and Bank Pool HOF and I are planning to honor Denny Searcy. This is another one of those "You just had to be there to see it." Nobody ever played better than this past great champion, who labored in obscurity and need for years. We'll keep everybody posted about this.
Look, I'm not knocking Efren. He's a great player and to borrow a Jack Nicklaus quote about Tiger Woods, "He plays a brand of One Pocket I'm not familiar with." Cardone doesn't say many things that are smart but he did utter this truism about Reyes: "One Pocket is a perfect game for him", meaning his Rotation and Billiard skills stand him in good stead at One Pocket.
I'm probably going to shock many on this respected board by this, which is what I really believe: Cliff is the finest One Pocket player in the world today, IMHO, if a real man's match were made out of it. 15 ahead, even One Pocket, 72 hours or until someone wins the cash. No excuses, no quitting, no casinos within a hundred miles. If I happen to do well in one of the IPT events you can look for me to try to set domething like this up.
While I'm pontificating this fine morning I'd like to say that Greg Sullivan, Steve Booth of the terrific One Pocket and Bank Pool HOF and I are planning to honor Denny Searcy. This is another one of those "You just had to be there to see it." Nobody ever played better than this past great champion, who labored in obscurity and need for years. We'll keep everybody posted about this.
Grady said:
In a 15 ahead one pocket match, the winner is the person who's got the most pills or powder, you and I both know that. I am talking about when a player is in dead punch, who is the best. Not when they are dead tired or wired on caffeine or some other chemical. And I didn't say you are knocking Efren, Grady, I said Enzo was, because he does that habitually. You are entitled to your opinion, and I would love to see another Efren/Cliff match, but I know that Cliff won't play him even. The last few times they played Efren spotted him and Cliff lost.
enzo said:
It's safe to say that I am not the only one who gets a little annoyed when you chime in every thread about Efren and knock his game. And while you're at it, I wouldn't mind some more bad rep.
Ronny/Danny
I think I have that match on DVD if you want a copy. Is it the one from the Golden "8" ball? and their playing on that super fast old Brunswick?.....Ronny was complaining about the place being a swamp and stuff right?
Let me know, Gerry
jay helfert said:
I think I have that match on DVD if you want a copy. Is it the one from the Golden "8" ball? and their playing on that super fast old Brunswick?.....Ronny was complaining about the place being a swamp and stuff right?
Let me know, Gerry
I think Cliff is the best one pocket player in the country. I think Efren beats him on shark power alone. Cliff goes in kind of expecting to lose, so he loses. I think in the grand scheme, Cliff is a better one hole player than Efren...he just needs to get over this psychological hold Efren has on him.
> I agree with Grady 100%. I wasn't born soon enough to see Ronnie in his prime,so I have no opinion there. On the subject of Efren,I've also heard from several other knowledgable people that on the rare occasions that Efren does play bad or the opponent catches a gear and he loses,he will unscrew. James Walden told me a few months ago that the very first time someone steps up and beats him in front of the whole room at DCC,even if it is just a few games like when he runs those 20-50 dollar challenge tables,that will be the end of him gambling there. He is said to despise losing about as bad as Earl,just handles it better,and gets embarrassed when he loses in front of large crowds. He is also not a fan of having to move and nit back and forth to gain an advantage,someone that can really play the ultra conservative style like Hopkins can take him out of sync. As great a player as he is,does anyone else remember when he was referred to as the "Manila Folder"? For a LONG time,leading up to the 1994 U.S. Open,he would play great until he got to the finals of a big tournament,and when it came time to play the finals he left his A and sometimes his B game in the hotel room. If you really take a close look at his overall record,he's been blown out in the finals of a LOT of tournaments. I'm not dogging him at ALL,just ask Grady or Jay. Tommy D.
Ronnie, Efren, Searcy etc.
I want to comment on several different opinions that ran throughout this thread.
Ronnie Allen. I played Ronnie in Hot Springs, AR for $200 a game 20-25 yrs ago. Ronnie ran 10 and out six games in a row on me! Included in the run was an eleven (he had taken an earlier scratch). Even though I was famed for being long winded and able to absorb brutal beatings, I had to quit. I didnt stick around for seven in a row. This was the second time we played. The first time I beat him eleven in a row with the same spot (Larry Schwartz was his backer) in my home pool room. He did not quit, and wound up winning a few games back. The point being, to verify some of Grady's and Enzo's remarks. They are right, Efren will not stand still for a strumming. I know from personal experience. Those few times when I had him on the whipping post he hopped like a rabbit and packed it in. Four barrels at the most. To verify another conjecture, yes, he does get squirmy if you can get the balls up table. A stategy I employed relentlessly against him. However, up table means way up table. You must leave them near the back rail where he cant get behind them. Having said all this, I still think he is the best 1pkt player of all time. But I would have loved to see him tested by warriors like, Ronnie, Bugs, and Artie when they were in their prime. Ronnie would have shown him sharks he had never seen, Bugs, banks he had never seen, and Artie, moves he had never dreamed of.
Denny Searcy: Whatever award Grady and Steve Booth have dreamed up for Denny is certainly deserving. He was a ferocious gambler and played all games at a top, top level. (even a little 3 cushion)
That's my take,
the Beard,
Bank on brother!
I want to comment on several different opinions that ran throughout this thread.
Ronnie Allen. I played Ronnie in Hot Springs, AR for $200 a game 20-25 yrs ago. Ronnie ran 10 and out six games in a row on me! Included in the run was an eleven (he had taken an earlier scratch). Even though I was famed for being long winded and able to absorb brutal beatings, I had to quit. I didnt stick around for seven in a row. This was the second time we played. The first time I beat him eleven in a row with the same spot (Larry Schwartz was his backer) in my home pool room. He did not quit, and wound up winning a few games back. The point being, to verify some of Grady's and Enzo's remarks. They are right, Efren will not stand still for a strumming. I know from personal experience. Those few times when I had him on the whipping post he hopped like a rabbit and packed it in. Four barrels at the most. To verify another conjecture, yes, he does get squirmy if you can get the balls up table. A stategy I employed relentlessly against him. However, up table means way up table. You must leave them near the back rail where he cant get behind them. Having said all this, I still think he is the best 1pkt player of all time. But I would have loved to see him tested by warriors like, Ronnie, Bugs, and Artie when they were in their prime. Ronnie would have shown him sharks he had never seen, Bugs, banks he had never seen, and Artie, moves he had never dreamed of.
Denny Searcy: Whatever award Grady and Steve Booth have dreamed up for Denny is certainly deserving. He was a ferocious gambler and played all games at a top, top level. (even a little 3 cushion)
That's my take,
the Beard,
Bank on brother!
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Ronnie, Efren and Cliff
Ronnie first. A good way to think of Ronnie's best game is simply perfect, I mean you couldn't play better. Am I the only one who remembers how great Ronnie broke the balls?
Now, I wish I didn't have to say this but I am compelled. If Efren bet his own money in an extended match, I might let Cliff, Artie in his prime or Parica give HIM a ball.
Just from this old jaded war horse: Guys who don't ever bet their own money are non factors in the gambling world.
I think a lot of Cliff although he has his share of problems.But I'd like to try to help him if I can in this Efren matter. Why do you think I say 15 ahead? Obviously I'd like to take Efren out of his comfort zone. If he's so much the nuts this shouldn't be a problem. I also am willing to have Cliff submit to a drug test. Now, is there anything else I can do to try to get this right? I know how Cliff playe in an extended match, say 3 or 4 days. Efren, I don't know.
Ronnie first. A good way to think of Ronnie's best game is simply perfect, I mean you couldn't play better. Am I the only one who remembers how great Ronnie broke the balls?
Now, I wish I didn't have to say this but I am compelled. If Efren bet his own money in an extended match, I might let Cliff, Artie in his prime or Parica give HIM a ball.
Just from this old jaded war horse: Guys who don't ever bet their own money are non factors in the gambling world.
I think a lot of Cliff although he has his share of problems.But I'd like to try to help him if I can in this Efren matter. Why do you think I say 15 ahead? Obviously I'd like to take Efren out of his comfort zone. If he's so much the nuts this shouldn't be a problem. I also am willing to have Cliff submit to a drug test. Now, is there anything else I can do to try to get this right? I know how Cliff playe in an extended match, say 3 or 4 days. Efren, I don't know.