Which One ???
- Thread starter SHORTY WRIGHT
- Start date
So what? This thread compares the value of great shot making to defensive wizardry.
Following your tangent, there have been many pool GOAT threads on AZB over the years. Worst has never come out on top. In his day, those who watched him rated him as Lassiter's equal, which is very high praise indeed. Lassiter, however, was the better shot maker, and Nick Varner has suggested that Lassiter was the game's greatest ever shot maker. Worst is, perhaps best all around cueist if one includes 3-cushion billiards, but this is a pool thread.
Harold died some 60 years ago, but if you watched him in his prime, I'll give your opinion extra weight. He was certainly not the most dominant pool player in history, not even close.
Finally, nobody from that era played the game at anything close to the level of today's best. Back then, pockets were usually 4 3/4", but today's best run the table with greater ease despite playing on 4" pockets.
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That's hilarious. Put them on 4 3/4" pockets and a Filler or Gorst might run 50 racks of 9ball in a row. In that era, Lassiter's 21-pack is the biggest run with which I'm familiar (Jay Helfert once posted that he thinks it was only 19).
If you watch footage of the matches of the past, you'll see weaker fundamentals, weaker pattern play, and more missed shots. The game has come a long way.
Nonetheless, comparison across generations is near impossible. Was Sigel better than Filler? All we can say is that each put together a greater resume of major titles than any other player of his era.
Nice write.... did see him play at Janscos, and was there the last day, when Your money went in the Manila folder to the feds.
He had an ''Air'' about his person he was also defined by his immaculate Male look when in suit/tie, it just looked better on him than the herd.
His walk was somewhat pronounced, fairly tall and lanky even at age. He dressed the sharpest of all, and Peacocked.
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I regularly got spotted 25 points until such time as he couldn't give it anymore.
Didn't make much diff at first, he could put up the numbers seemingly at will while I was still struggling to get good break shots.
Took me a year of playing every day to get rid of that spot.
Luther was a stone cold killer. If he was dancing, it was bcuz he didn't feel good that day.
Ty!!!
My opinion is that this has already happened in WNT 9ball play. The tight pockets have made running out tougher, which has, unfortunately, led to more safety play, but the change in the break rule may have had an even bigger impact.
A decade ago, there was no break box, the 1ball was racked on the spot, and the pockets were 4 1/2". Not only was the wing ball dead but position could be played off the break. In WNT 9ball today, with the 9ball racked on the spot, a cut break is required to make a ball consistently on the break. The ability of the players to run packages has been greatly reduced as they can no longer play position off the break shot.
In WNT 9ball play, I think the changes are already in place and that the players have been slowed down on offense, but I think the pockets are a bit too tight.
In WNT 9ball play, the three pack has become quite a rare commodity.
middleofnowhere
Registered
I have rethought this and disagree with my own statement here. Shot making is paramount to playing at a high level. I said that cue ball control, be it for position or safety play was most important and that is true. But without accuracy in shooting you can't produce that accurate position or safety play.
In other words, you often have to pocket the ball in such a way to produce the angles to play position. Down the middle, cheat the pocket, often intensionally brush a rail and so on. This requires very accurate ball pocketing skills.
Position play, speed control, imaginations all ads up to high level play but it starts with a good hit on the object ball. Without that it it is all for naught.
Shot making, be it pocketing a ball or just making a good hit on the object ball to play a safety is where it all starts. The rest are the results.
Has my rethinking made any sense?
Right. Shotmaking and CB control are one and the same thing. If you hit the CB and OB both as intended, you will get both the make and the position. If either is off, you won't pocket the ball (or possibly barely pocket it), and the CB won't go where you intended.
Both come up (improve) at the same rate.
A small caveat to this is pattern play. I suppose a player could be an excellent ball striker, with a crappy pattern play intelligence. That's going to be quite rare though, as usually the entire game comes up at the same rate, led by pocketing ability. Maybe the only time we'd see that in the modern era is if a high level 9 ball player plays straight pool for the first time in their life.
Playing 9 ball though, a high level 9 ball player is almost always picking the right pattern (position route options) to have the best chance of running out.
And going back to safety play, a high level 9 ball player will know when to play safe, and when to go for the out. Those skills will come up together too. A 17 year old phenom that can pocket everything under the sun, will soon learn that he can't, and will incorporate a few more safeties into his game.
Both come up (improve) at the same rate.
A small caveat to this is pattern play. I suppose a player could be an excellent ball striker, with a crappy pattern play intelligence. That's going to be quite rare though, as usually the entire game comes up at the same rate, led by pocketing ability. Maybe the only time we'd see that in the modern era is if a high level 9 ball player plays straight pool for the first time in their life.
Playing 9 ball though, a high level 9 ball player is almost always picking the right pattern (position route options) to have the best chance of running out.
And going back to safety play, a high level 9 ball player will know when to play safe, and when to go for the out. Those skills will come up together too. A 17 year old phenom that can pocket everything under the sun, will soon learn that he can't, and will incorporate a few more safeties into his game.
Reyes 120 Strickland 117
Of course, Efren is the best defensive player of all time, but the shotmaker doesn't always win, even in a marathon.
Yep, remember that Earl got whiney, had such big lead near the end complete ego change he knew this guy had no chance... shot em self in the foot and the HEAD. Likely a reason he's no longer Pearly.
Knowing the guy you were playing could easily put together a 3 or 5 pack his next trip to the table made you approach the game with a slightly diff mindset back then. Winner broke, balls spotted, roll out. Spot shots and getting good shape after were crucial. I never see one of my favorites nowadays. The low inside 3 railer off the spot shot.
For those of you unfamiliar with this shot, you draw off the spot shot from the kitchen with inside into the long rail, english grabs and carries the CB into the corner for 2 rails and out to the other side long rail near the side pocket, depending on how much speed and juice you use. This was a standard shot in players arsenals then.
So was full table inside to get you straight back down to the headrail.
If you can't "control" the cue ball, you can't repeatedly pocket balls, get position, or play effective safeties.
Knowing "when" to play a safety is just as important as being able to play a safety.
Players frequently pass up "lock up" safeties that would give them BIH and better odds than attempting to make "circus" shots when they can't guarantee control of the cue ball.
BIH is like the old saying, "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".
Being able to "read the table" and determine your odds, based upon your skill, is the key to deciding when to play a safety or go for the shot.
Players frequently pass up "lock up" safeties that would give them BIH and better odds than attempting to make "circus" shots when they can't guarantee control of the cue ball.
BIH is like the old saying, "a bird in hand is worth two in the bush".
Being able to "read the table" and determine your odds, based upon your skill, is the key to deciding when to play a safety or go for the shot.
Strongly disagree. Even at pro level, some play the patterns much better than others. Even at Fargo 780+, there are more than a few mediocre pattern players.