Who are we as cue makers, really?

Q

qbilder

slower than snails
Silver Member
I recently screwed up a completely custom cue order. I had notes & such with his specifics but still missed a lot of them. I wasn't purposely being negligent but just my absent minded self. I essentially wasted years of both of our lives with this cue build when I should never have accepted the order in the first place because it was so far out of the spec of my own formula. And I should have explained it to him when we were discussing the details of the build. Then he could have accepted my formula or else moved along to a builder who is good with custom specs. Instead I took the build on with every intention of nailing it right on the way he wanted. I didn't need the money. In fact I gave it to him at about half rate. I like the guy & wanted to make him happy, as well as have fun doing what I do, which is building cues.

Anyway, I learned a valuable lesson about myself. This situation made me sit back & evaluate myself, my buyer base, and our industry as a whole. I realized that from the very beginning I always felt pressure to please people. They expect us builders to be almost god like sometimes, and it's totally understandable considering the money they pay for cues. Cues are very expensive novelty items. The buyers rarely consider that we are grossly underpaid, only that they are paying a lot of cash for a pool cue. We, or at least I, often feel a little guilty charging fairly because it is a lot of money. I often under charge because of it. I'm very blessed & lucky that I don't need to make money from building cues. Rather, I can afford to build cues. I admire but don't envy the guys scraping out a living with cues. Heaven forbid something go wrong with a buyer. They think they have our balls with these forums & can put a lot of pressure on us. Luckily my buyer is a gentleman but I know one builder who recently had to deal with a buyer who had that mentality. Building cues is a tough gig, even for hobbyists.

I am at a point where I either quit building cues or come to terms with who I am as a cuemaker. I have always expressed myself as carefree but in actuality I always try hard to make folks happy. I can't please everybody. And i'm not going to try. I will build what I want, when I want, for whom I want. Don't ask me for specs that are outside of my formula & I won't make promises I can't keep. I like my cues, not yours. So don't ask me to build your cue. I'm not being an ass. I'm being honest. When i'm comfortable & happy I do my best work. When i'm trying to please & meet demands I screw things up, which sucks for everybody. It is what it is & it's who I am. So i'm just going with it. It's who I am.

Who are you as a cue maker? Have you come to terms with your limitations vs. strengths? Do you feel pressured to please folks & if so for what reasons? Where are you going with cues & what steps are you taking to get there? No need to answer on here, just a few questions I asked myself & it kinda put things into perspective. Sorry for the lengthy post. I was just sharing thoughts & experiences. I wonder if any other builders contemplate these things.
 
qbilder said:
I recently screwed up a completely custom cue order. I had notes & such with his specifics but still missed a lot of them. I wasn't purposely being negligent but just my absent minded self. I essentially wasted years of both of our lives with this cue build when I should never have accepted the order in the first place because it was so far out of the spec of my own formula. And I should have explained it to him when we were discussing the details of the build. Then he could have accepted my formula or else moved along to a builder who is good with custom specs. Instead I took the build on with every intention of nailing it right on the way he wanted. I didn't need the money. In fact I gave it to him at about half rate. I like the guy & wanted to make him happy, as well as have fun doing what I do, which is building cues.

Anyway, I learned a valuable lesson about myself. This situation made me sit back & evaluate myself, my buyer base, and our industry as a whole. I realized that from the very beginning I always felt pressure to please people. They expect us builders to be almost god like sometimes, and it's totally understandable considering the money they pay for cues. Cues are very expensive novelty items. The buyers rarely consider that we are grossly underpaid, only that they are paying a lot of cash for a pool cue. We, or at least I, often feel a little guilty charging fairly because it is a lot of money. I often under charge because of it. I'm very blessed & lucky that I don't need to make money from building cues. Rather, I can afford to build cues. I admire but don't envy the guys scraping out a living with cues. Heaven forbid something go wrong with a buyer. They think they have our balls with these forums & can put a lot of pressure on us. Luckily my buyer is a gentleman but I know one builder who recently had to deal with a buyer who had that mentality. Building cues is a tough gig, even for hobbyists.

I am at a point where I either quit building cues or come to terms with who I am as a cuemaker. I have always expressed myself as carefree but in actuality I always try hard to make folks happy. I can't please everybody. And i'm not going to try. I will build what I want, when I want, for whom I want. Don't ask me for specs that are outside of my formula & I won't make promises I can't keep. I like my cues, not yours. So don't ask me to build your cue. I'm not being an ass. I'm being honest. When i'm comfortable & happy I do my best work. When i'm trying to please & meet demands I screw things up, which sucks for everybody. It is what it is & it's who I am. So i'm just going with it. It's who I am.

Who are you as a cue maker? Have you come to terms with your limitations vs. strengths? Do you feel pressured to please folks & if so for what reasons? Where are you going with cues & what steps are you taking to get there? No need to answer on here, just a few questions I asked myself & it kinda put things into perspective. Sorry for the lengthy post. I was just sharing thoughts & experiences. I wonder if any other builders contemplate these things.
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Sounds to me like you have decided to quit, just can't quite say it
out loud yet, and are looking for someone to advise you to do what you already want to do.
So, seems it is time to quit.

Dale
 
great post!

Makes me think about my own situation. I am currently building a cue that I took as a completely customer designed order. And it is taking forever. My heart is not in it, a cue that I want to make and to my specs would be done in 1/4 the time. I like the customer, known him a few years, so I will get it done, but not as much fun doing it.
And yeah, the customer thinks we charge a lot until he sees what it takes to make a cue, then they ask me why in the world did I ever pick this for a hobby? And you know what? I have to say that sometimes I do not know, it kinda crept up on me, then before I knew it, I was obsessed with the craft. And my quest continues, when I see what other great craftsmen and artists here on AZ can do. I just have to learn more, try harder, and maybe sometimes make something I am not comfortable with, to take me kicking and screaming into a higher level of cuemaking?
 
Great Post! (Questions)
Well I have come to grips with whom I am as a cue builder a very long time ago! I knew then what I know now. I dont want to built that outragous cues. I also dont build collector cues! I am not equiped to do so! I build my cues for playability FIRST and looks are a close second. Third I build them to last! That is why I do on occasion run behind on my cues. One thing I have learned over the years of doing this full time. Is that you CANT rush wood! . I pride myself in building my cues. That is also why I hand sign everyone instead of using the logo I used to use! I am very proud of myself for what I am doing. I take great pride in taking square piece's of wood and making into a pool cue that can and will be used daily for a long time.

Remember there are very few of us that can do that!

I also love what I do! That is the most important part to all of this. Not many can say they love what they do! I can and do!

Eric your very good at what you do! SO dont give it up if you truely love what your doing!!!!
 
custom versus production

Eric,
You are now asking yourself a question behind your statements. Do I want to build custom cues or production cues?? Customs are one of a kind?? If you do the same thing (your formula) twice it's production. If all you want are the same dimensions (so it makes tooling easy) then production is the way. If you exist for the true challenge, then each cue is a separate entity demanding you work harder and longer to make that instrument play sweet music. Tapers, balance points, multiple coring techniques, and endless dimension changing to get things just right. Tedious trial and ERROR, but when it all comes together that cue sings like a Stradivarius. One set of specifications doesn't work in all cases. Production can result in beauty and occasional playing success. Most collectors are buying for beauty anyhow. But a finely tweaked cue (from hours of trial and error effort) sings a different song.

Your efforts to date point toward finely crafted work. I am envious of what I have seen you do. You can have a great career in whatever path you take. Good luck in the future. Keep thinking, though.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues:cool:
 
I feel your pain. People have expectations of me and my work that, sometimes, is hard to live up to. With the repairs I do, I only have one shot to get it right. I cannot screw up because everything is irreplaceable. That creates a unique stress for me that never lets up. That being said, I thrive in it. When I need a little time off, I build cues.
 
who are we

qbuilder i agree with you 100 percent.iam just getting started in trying to learn to build cues as a hobbist.i have been around it for a long time now doing repair work and tinkering.i like yourself have been blessed in another business for 30 years and will never depend on cue making for a living. i will do cues just for fun.i also will do them my way no inlay no cnc. i worked for a man about 30 years ago and i questioned him about the way he did things.he told me son there is 3 ways to do things the right way the wrong way and my way.i have used that practice all my life and iam still here ,nothing wrong with pleasing your customers,but you also must please yourself.

danny t
 
Sounds like you need to do what I have done, for many years. I stopped taking orders & just build the Qs that I want. Then put them up for sale. I have a list of people who want $300-$400-$500 Qs & so forth. I finish a Q & go down the list with the phone & bingo, it's sold. I rarely make more than 2-3 calles & it's gone. They still are one- of- a- kind, but I decide which one gets done 1st & how it will look. I am a much happier Qbuilder since. GOOD LUCK...JER
 
Eric, I agree 100% with your post! Most not all cuemakers are grossly underpaid. I have also took on orders that were out of my standard joint size butt size forearm length etc. The cues never came out the way I or the customer wanted. I make Spitz Cues not Joe Gold or Ed Young or Southwest cues. I am one of those guys scraping out a living making cues. I have quickly learned that what I can and can't do. I have become busier making the cues that I am proud of, and turning away the others. If you make a quality product I believe they money will soon follow. Great post! and I know you aren't thinking of giving up. Just frustration, it will go away in time.
 
BLACKHEARTCUES said:
Sounds like you need to do what I have done, for many years. I stopped taking orders & just build the Qs that I want. Then put them up for sale. I have a list of people who want $300-$400-$500 Qs & so forth. I finish a Q & go down the list with the phone & bingo, it's sold. I rarely make more than 2-3 calles & it's gone. They still are one- of- a- kind, but I decide which one gets done 1st & how it will look. I am a much happier Qbuilder since. GOOD LUCK...JER
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I am not a cuemaker, and have never wanted to be one. But I've been playing pool for 40+ years, and have seen it all. If I built cues, I'd do it just the way you do. Build them and then sell them.

On a side note, I commend every cuemaker on this planet for giving the effort most of you do. There no way I could deal with a lot of the players I've come across since I've been playing. Many of them would be very difficult, IMO.

I've heard it said that cuemaking is wonderful, if you didn't have to deal with pool players... probably a lot of truth in that statement.
 
I band sawed a cue in half recently.
The cue warped . The client who ordered it breathed on my neck .
He wanted updates every month or so. So to please him I cut down my cutting period. The cue warped . It was probably all for good . The cue design he requested was not what my cues would look like normally. I'm not going to remake the cue and willl ask the client to have someone else build him that cue. Someone whose cue looks more like that one .
Money doesn't motivate me . I just make enough off my cues to keep it going .
I respect those who do it full-time. It is a daunting task.
I make cues for the love of it. And for the pride of something coming off my hands can be so much of value to someone else who also enjoy the great game.

QB, this is the hard fact. You know your cues more than anybody. If the potential client starts requesting specs that would make that cue not look and feel like a Sugar Tree, ask the person to order that cue from someone else who builds cues like that one.
Can you go to SW and ask for a piloted stainless steel joint ?
Exactly.
 
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First of all, i'm not quitting. I love building cues. I was just venting out of frustration at myself & thought maybe there's other builders who struggle with their own, but similar demons. I slipped on the tight rope once too many times, trying the balancing act of what I want to be and what our society dictates a custom cue maker should be. I tried it all & frankly the full custom thing is not for me.

Label it any way you like but i'm going to stick with my own formula. It's nothing to do with ease. It's all about what I as a player feel is best in terms of playability & feel. My custom orders will still have freedom of design choices & such but structurally & dimensionally the cues will be to my specs., which are very much the same as the vast majority of players. 12.75mm-13.25mm, 17oz-21oz, 18.5-20" balance, 58", etc. ect. Basically the common stuff.

That's all I was really saying in my post. I'm not quitting & i'm not really changing much of anything. I'm just not going to be quite as liberal with what i'll do to fit cues to customers. If my cues fit you then great. If not then great. I just don't want to play the balancing act anymore & it came time that I realize it & fix it. Me trying to be something i'm not wastes everybody's time. So it's either quit or change my approach. I love cues so i'm changing my approach. It's nothing dramatic or huge. Just a minor adjustment beat to my already own drum. And I was sharing my thoughts because i'm guessing there's a lot of guys "trapped" in between who they want to be & who they feel they are expected to be. That's all. Thank yall for understanding.
 
I am sure all cue builders contemplate the same things as what you are talking about, Eric. I am not 100% familiar with your situation and your history as I have only been involved with custom cues for a few years. I have had the pleasure of hitting your cues and I think they are great. You have a style all your own and I think if you make things along your formula you will be much happier. I think you have a great style and it is a humble one that accentuates all the key points that a cue should have and when you graduate on to the next level, it will be a sight to see.

Every once in a while, people step outside their comfort zone. I believe it is essential for growth. People need that to realize who they are and where they are going. People who stay in their comfort zone never really get to experience growth toward new heights, because they never really learn to push themselves with the necessary fortitude it takes to be the best they can be. Challenges that come up in life present themselves for a reason. We all have our gifts, or things we are good at, which could be many things, but we should all know that there is one primary gift given to us by God and we should never ignore that. That primary gift is what we use to present beauty to this world. If you look, all of the greatest people in the world were superb creators and presenters of their own gift, be it Albert Einstein, Henry Ford, or even sports greats like Muhammad Ali and Michael Jordan. At one time or another, they stumbled and fell, but got back up and rose to the top because they had a voice that was meant to be heard by the entire world and echo throughout the pages of history.

I think if cue making is not your thing, then there is definitely something else that is, but no one can figure that out except you.

I personally think you were destined to craft great things from great pieces of wood.
 
Cue making

Alpert P Sloan, the head of GM for many years (he worked at GM from 1900 to 1956 when they were profitable) was asked at his retirement what his secret of success was. He replied, "I do not have the secret of success. However, I do have the secret of failure and that is trying to please everybody".
 
The key to me enjoying cue building is to never take a custom order. I build a few, take them to the pool hall and sell them to people that like them. As soon as I have even just a few customers waiting for tips or a rewrap it feels like a job and I start stressing on how soon and I can get their stuff done. I really believe this is what has kept it enjoyable for me. I too am also lucky enough to have a job that supports me and cuemaking stays a hobby.
 
I once had a customer place an order for a cue. I told him up front I would not build what I considered too plain of a cue because it was boring. Mid way through the build he told he he did not want the inlays. I just reached in my pocket and handed him back his deposit. He then said no I don't want my money back. I then told him I was not building a cue that I did not like the looks of. He went ahead and had the cue made and sold it some months later and then tried to buy it back on ebay, but got out bid. He did not have me build him another one, so I lost a customer because I would not build a plain jane for him. But an older gentleman listened to our exchange over the cue. And he ordered a local lady a cue and a high end custom cue for himself at about $5000 for the two cues. He even handed me a $500 bonus when he saw how good the higher end cue came out. That was back when the market was peaking for me. If I had needed the money I might have built the plain jane cue, but I didn't and did not want to build something I found to be boring to build.
My point is if you don't need the money, then only build cues that you are happy to build and would want people to know you built it.
 
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JoeyInCali said:
I band sawed a cue in half recently.
The cue warped . The client who ordered it breathed on my neck .
He wanted updates every month or so..
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So what is the right amount of time for updates? I personally try not to ask more than once every couple of months, but I do like updates. Even if its just to say that nothing has changed.

Just curious what the cuemakers in this thread think is the right amount of time to wait for a update?

And Joey, I think you do pretty well with giving updates at least from the cues you've made for me.


And Eric, your cues are loved because of how they play. Your customers, at least the repeat ones, I say are pretty loyal to wanting your cues. I don't know about anyone else, but the wait is worth it. The only critique I'd give you is to just simply tell people its going to be a few years. If you mess up, tell them, and find out what they would like to do that fits into what you can do. I think at times you've had some criticism because you wanted to please people, and thought you could do things faster than you were comfortable with. I personally think you are a hell of a good cue maker. And you can be insanely generous. I think most everyone knows at this point why you make cues, and my guess is that Blackheart is 100% right. Build what you want and then sell it if you want. You'll not have any issues in selling them, the only downfall I can see is from a creative stand point. I would guess that some of the custom orders push the creative ideas to new limits.
 
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cubswin said:
So what is the right amount of time for updates? I personally try not to ask more than once every couple of months, but I do like updates. Even if its just to say that nothing has changed.

Just curious what the cuemakers in this thread think is the right amount of time to wait for a update?

And Joey, I think you do pretty well with giving updates at least from the cues you've made for me.
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I think it all depends on how busy the cue maker is and the situation. Some do it for a living, and some have regular jobs. Some do it as a hobby, some do it as a business, some just treat it as a way to find answers to form their personal opinion. Myself, I have a regular job and do cues when I feel like it. I make cues because it fascinates me and I absolutely love the craft of working with wood. I strive to make the best possible feeling cue. For me, feel is everything and the look is secondary. If I can combine the look into a cue as an enhancement, it is a bonus for me, but it has got to hit like a champ every time you stroke that cue ball.

If someone orders a cue from me, I have to get to know that person and feel good about it in the gut or else I will tell him to move on down the road. I don't take random orders, and I won't sell my cue to just anyone.

Once I start a cue for someone I give him updates every few weeks or so until it's done. I am no where near doing cues on the scale of Eric or some of the other guys out there. I am sure the more established ones like Olney and Crisp have many different projects going on at the same time and there is a rhythm and balance that dictates the flow of their output and therefore reducing the amount of extra energy it takes to keep all those people in the loop. I would think it is kind of a pain in the ass to stop along the way and snap pics, email them or whatever during the process. Regardless of the cue maker and his schedule, I do think the customer deserves to get an update around halfway through, and near completion.

Cue making is time consuming, and as Eric stated earlier, people are somewhat demanding, and yes, I do think they have us by the balls with the power of these forums at their fingertips. Ultimately, if you make a good product and have good principles, it will reflect in the long run and you really have nothing to worry about.

At the moment, I am approx a 15 cue per year guy who makes cues according to how I like them, and thinks the next guy will too..... so far I have had some success, but I still have a long, long way to go.
 
I started out doing repairs for about 8 years, then after losing my repair lathe ( long story), I wanted to start making cues, well I bought a Deluxe and my addiction is as strong as ever. I made a few mistakes I had to try and fix when I first started doing repairs, I embarrassed myself and from then on I said I would not do a repair I wasn't comfortable doing.

Now that I am making cues I have turned down a couple of designs being it wasn't going to be a Russell Cue, but rather something I myself might not readily recognize later in years. I have taken some orders but I will not get into a corner I can't get out of, granted I would love to have a small staff and have a 10 year waiting list but thats a horse of a different color.

I understand QB what you mean, you built a cue that didn't think fit your style and construction method and it just didn't feel right. I know where I am in my cue building and where I want to end up as far as looks and playability, the playability I have pretty much down to a science.

We have to build what we are comfortable with and stick to it as our cues are a reflection of us as individuals and cue makers.
 
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