Who else was at california billiards yesterday?

[actioncentral]

California Billiard Club and the USPPA

Nightmare Freddy snuck in the tournament at a RIDICULOUS 63 SPEED. He easily plays in the 90-100 range and it was LAME that he got to steamroll every body he played. The top 3 players were all underrated by at least 25-30 points. In fact not one of the top 3 was rated over a 70 speed. I now understand why alot more excellent players do not want to play in this system. Tony Annigoni DOES NOT regulate the players and is SO OUT OF TOUCH with how people play that this may be the downfall of the USPPA. There were about 10 players who should have been adjusted but were not. WHY? I have no CLUE. I jsut know this will be my last USPPA tourney. When you have to give up 4 or 5 games going to 8 to a player when they should only get 2 is NOT TOO FUN to come back to. Young John Morra got his taste of the USPPA and I know he will not play in it again. Cmon Annigoni, get your head in the game and PAY ATTENTION to your fricken players dude.

 

[poolplayer2093]

I heard that it was 8-7, race to 6 for $2000. With the game score at 0-5 and Santos needing one to win the game and the set, Tony played a beautiful 2-cushion long bank to the center of the pocket. Unfortunately, it was the wrong pocket.

Wow really? did he mean to make the bank (forgot which pocket was his) or was it an accident?

i expect to see beginner 1 pocket players make that mistake but not players like Tony

 

[poolplayer2093]

Nightmare Freddy snuck in the tournament at a RIDICULOUS 63 SPEED. He easily plays in the 90-100 range and it was LAME that he got to steamroll every body he played. The top 3 players were all underrated by at least 25-30 points. In fact not one of the top 3 was rated over a 70 speed. I now understand why alot more excellent players do not want to play in this system. Tony Annigoni DOES NOT regulate the players and is SO OUT OF TOUCH with how people play that this may be the downfall of the USPPA. There were about 10 players who should have been adjusted but were not. WHY? I have no CLUE. I jsut know this will be my last USPPA tourney. When you have to give up 4 or 5 games going to 8 to a player when they should only get 2 is NOT TOO FUN to come back to. Young John Morra got his taste of the USPPA and I know he will not play in it again. Cmon Annigoni, get your head in the game and PAY ATTENTION to your fricken players dude.

i don't think it's all Tony's fault. people sand bag when they're being rated. you take that into account and the fact that a 80 speed in central cali might not be an 80 speed in the bay and you can see how their rating system might be slightly flawed.

 

[cyrex]

just my opinion

Honestly, I agree with actioncentral. I think there are a lot of players that are frustrated with the USPPA handicap system. And definitely the past couple of years I've seen the attendance dwindle because of this. It's extremely hard for a 90+ speed player to win. Bryce used to have to give everyone 3 games in a race to 5. He'd have to play at AAA level just to win.

Freddy is a good friend of mine but I'll man up and admit he is a little underrated in my opinion. A lot of players are. He's not out there sandbagging every tournament just so he can win one big one. He rarely plays in USPPA tournaments. It's just what they have him rated at. The system definitely needs to be tweaked.

But, I really think us local players need to try and work this out in a positive way. There are not many guys like Annigoni going out of there way to run tournaments at this level... let alone organize something similar in size and scale to the USPPA.

Outside of leagues, we would have nothing. There is NO pro circuit that comes out here. I talked to the owners of California Billiards and they really want to support the USPPA just for this reason. Help them make positive changes and restructure the system rather than just say the USPPA sucks and that's that. California Billiards is doing 75 and under USPPA tournaments on Tuesday nights for instance.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I would just say before everyone throws in the towel on the USPPA maybe we could spin in it to something positive for all of us.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Wow really? did he mean to make the bank (forgot which pocket was his) or was it an accident?

i expect to see beginner 1 pocket players make that mistake but not players like Tony

Forgot. He got position and safe if the ball hadn't gone in (the wrong pocket).

 

[sixpack]

Honestly, I agree with actioncentral. I think there are a lot of players that are frustrated with the USPPA handicap system. And definitely the past couple of years I've seen the attendance dwindle because of this. It's extremely hard for a 90+ speed player to win. Bryce used to have to give everyone 3 games in a race to 5. He'd have to play at AAA level just to win.

Freddy is a good friend of mine but I'll man up and admit he is a little underrated in my opinion. A lot of players are. He's not out there sandbagging every tournament just so he can win one big one. He rarely plays in USPPA tournaments. It's just what they have him rated at. The system definitely needs to be tweaked.

But, I really think us local players need to try and work this out in a positive way. There are not many guys like Annigoni going out of there way to run tournaments at this level... let alone organize something similar in size and scale to the USPPA.

Outside of leagues, we would have nothing. There is NO pro circuit that comes out here. I talked to the owners of California Billiards and they really want to support the USPPA just for this reason. Help them make positive changes and restructure the system rather than just say the USPPA sucks and that's that. California Billiards is doing 75 and under USPPA tournaments on Tuesday nights for instance.

Anyway, sorry for the rant. I would just say before everyone throws in the towel on the USPPA maybe we could spin in it to something positive for all of us.

I think it's a tough system to play in. I am a 39. Trust me that's not fair.

Why am I a 39? I have no idea. When I started they made me a 65 and I was way underrated and cashed every time I played. Then suddenly I was dropped to a 39.

Keeping score is the weakness. I hate staying after I'm out of a tournament to keep score. And one time I saw the guy keeping my score had fallen asleep and when the match was over, he just marked a bunch of innings on the sheet and handed it in. Probably why I'm a 39.

Bottom line is, I won't play that underrated. I don't like it. So I just don't play. Plus, with keeping score it's tough to want to play.

Also, the last time I played, the tournament was poorly run. There were not that many players and I lost one round before the money. The two guys I was waiting on to score went outside to smoke a bowl and didn't come back in for more than 15 minutes. Then they were blitzed out of their mind and played very, very slow with lots of breaks.

When that match ended, it was closing time, so everyone still in the money split it.

So basically, I was out of the tournament before 11:00 p.m. and stayed all the way until 2 a.m. to keep f***ing score for a couple of losers.

It blew chunks so bad I never played again.

I used to run a 32+ - man race to your handicap (3-7) double elimination 9-ball tourney on 5 tables that started at 8 and was done by closing time. (2 a.m.)

How they can run basically the same tourney, but with 16 players, single elim in a pool hall with many more tables and still have 4 players left at 2 a.m. is a mystery to me. But not one I'm willing to solve if it means having to go back again.

~rc

 

[Cuephoric]

Wish I could have made it back for the Warmup again this year,but too busy working for some weird reason.
N10spool let me know some of what was going on, although I'm surprised not to see Jeff Gregory's name up there.
John Morra shoots well, and seeing Nightmare Freddie take the honors was a surprise,but he's still a fun (if Underrated) player.
I used to go to Bay Billiards loooking for him, but the guy is always in nonstop action!lol
How'd Gilbert, Trevor, Baby Frank,And Aldano do?

 

[actioncentral]

Usppa

Hardtimes in Sac got rid of the USPPA Tourneys. I would personally be embarrassed if I won the USPPA tourney as a underrated player in the 40,50,or 60 range. Kinda of like winning it with an Asteric next to your name. It doesnt really count and you will not get respect from any of your peers or better players. But if you really need the money, then why not?

Looks like the future of California Pool will have to be open tournaments. Southern California seems to have better players than NorCal players in my opinion. At least there are guys down south who play HARD for the cash and up here people just want to steal the cash. Very rare to see any shortstops playing for decent money unless they are stealing. Times must be tough.

 

[nfty9er]

It is only as tough as you make it

I think it's a tough system to play in. I am a 39. Trust me that's not fair.

Why am I a 39? I have no idea. When I started they made me a 65 and I was way underrated and cashed every time I played. Then suddenly I was dropped to a 39.

Keeping score is the weakness. I hate staying after I'm out of a tournament to keep score. And one time I saw the guy keeping my score had fallen asleep and when the match was over, he just marked a bunch of innings on the sheet and handed it in. Probably why I'm a 39.

Bottom line is, I won't play that underrated. I don't like it. So I just don't play. Plus, with keeping score it's tough to want to play.

Also, the last time I played, the tournament was poorly run. There were not that many players and I lost one round before the money. The two guys I was waiting on to score went outside to smoke a bowl and didn't come back in for more than 15 minutes. Then they were blitzed out of their mind and played very, very slow with lots of breaks.

When that match ended, it was closing time, so everyone still in the money split it.

So basically, I was out of the tournament before 11:00 p.m. and stayed all the way until 2 a.m. to keep f***ing score for a couple of losers.

It blew chunks so bad I never played again.

I used to run a 32+ - man race to your handicap (3-7) double elimination 9-ball tourney on 5 tables that started at 8 and was done by closing time. (2 a.m.)

How they can run basically the same tourney, but with 16 players, single elim in a pool hall with many more tables and still have 4 players left at 2 a.m. is a mystery to me. But not one I'm willing to solve if it means having to go back again.

~rc

First of all keep your own scores like they do in golf. We started doing that years ago after we realized it was more honest and fair. When it is your turn to shoot, mark your shot and your opponent can agree or not. At lease you don't have a middle man. Also the scoring ends up being more consistent in the long run because all the players over the long haul end up knowing how to really keep it right.
If you were actually more than a 39, all you have to do is tell the tournament direcetor to put you in as a higher number. If he doesn't do it then Anogonni should fire him. The problem arises when you shoot lousy or not enough sheets and your rating drops, you can only adjust the day of the tournament on the comuter. Tony cannot just keep it permanent.
You always have the option to raise your average if you want to be that honest. If you dropped to a 39, that is what the scoresheets are telling the computer so someone is screwing up if you are that much better.
If 16 players take take til 2, there is something wrong or b.s. unless everyone is a 15 or something. If they use 8 tables to start, that is almost impossible. Believe me after all these years I know. After awhille you make sure you start the bad players right away if you have odd numbers and byes.
You can complain to Tony. He will do his best to make it right and better.
He has no qualms of rasing an average at a tourny if he realizes funny business. I have seen him do it many times. I am surprised he did not do it at Calif. billiards if he was there. In fact I have seen him go personally score a match and run it through the computer to at least get a more clear picture of the players true speed and then adjust.
Tony takes the system very serious and if there are any problems , just go to him. He has fired plenty of tournament directors.

 

[ABall]

I was there playing also. The USPPA is not a perfect system, but it does a good job of making matches close and giving lesser players a chance to win tournaments. I do believe that it is the most accurate handicapping system for pool even with all of it's flaws. If you want to complain about it, then you don't have to play...simple as that. Nightly tournament attendance is down in the Bay Area, but I don't think it has anything to do with the USPPA specifically. It's just that less players are coming out for the tournaments.

-Alex

 

[sixpack]

First of all keep your own scores like they do in golf. We started doing that years ago after we realized it was more honest and fair. When it is your turn to shoot, mark your shot and your opponent can agree or not. At lease you don't have a middle man. Also the scoring ends up being more consistent in the long run because all the players over the long haul end up knowing how to really keep it right.
If you were actually more than a 39, all you have to do is tell the tournament direcetor to put you in as a higher number. If he doesn't do it then Anogonni should fire him. The problem arises when you shoot lousy or not enough sheets and your rating drops, you can only adjust the day of the tournament on the comuter. Tony cannot just keep it permanent.
You always have the option to raise your average if you want to be that honest. If you dropped to a 39, that is what the scoresheets are telling the computer so someone is screwing up if you are that much better.
If 16 players take take til 2, there is something wrong or b.s. unless everyone is a 15 or something. If they use 8 tables to start, that is almost impossible. Believe me after all these years I know. After awhille you make sure you start the bad players right away if you have odd numbers and byes.
You can complain to Tony. He will do his best to make it right and better.
He has no qualms of rasing an average at a tourny if he realizes funny business. I have seen him do it many times. I am surprised he did not do it at Calif. billiards if he was there. In fact I have seen him go personally score a match and run it through the computer to at least get a more clear picture of the players true speed and then adjust.
Tony takes the system very serious and if there are any problems , just go to him. He has fired plenty of tournament directors.

I like Tony and I like what he's trying to do. Keeping your own score is an improvement that I wasn't aware of. I know lots of people complain to Tony about a lot of stupid stuff. I didn't want to add to it. I know he's working hard to make his system the best he can.

As for the tourney. I'm not exaggerating. It was that bad. I played it several times but that was the last straw. None of the times I played in it did it finish. It kind of sucked playing all night, not losing and then being 'appointed' 3rd or 4th depending on the coin toss and splitting the money. It was almost 5 years ago and I never entered that tourney again. After I was lowered I did ask to play at least as a 65 since that's what they started me at and I know it has a chance to be fair, although still IMO low. My request was denied by the TD. I played and lost to someone who was a 29 If he was a legit 29 then maybe I am a legit 39. I just thought people who could break and run and play a good safe when they didn't have an out were probably minimally in the 60's.

Anyway, another reason that I didn't really complain to Tony is that even if the system was perfect, I probably wouldn't have time to play much anyway. So it seemed better to let the folks invested in it work on it without my static.

Thanks for the response,
~rc

 

[bumpypickle]

Some other factors.

I was there playing also. The USPPA is not a perfect system, but it does a good job of making matches close and giving lesser players a chance to win tournaments. I do believe that it is the most accurate handicapping system for pool even with all of it's flaws. If you want to complain about it, then you don't have to play...simple as that. Nightly tournament attendance is down in the Bay Area, but I don't think it has anything to do with the USPPA specifically. It's just that less players are coming out for the tournaments.

-Alex

We used to have a 65 and under USPPA tourny at Shoreline on Tuesday eve that would get 50 to 70 players every week. We also had a regular USPPA tourny on Saturdays that would get the same amount of players. Things were different in many ways. There used to be cheap action and the better players would play for a little more without problems. I didn't know of sandbagging and in fact it was always a goal of mine and my buddies to see how high we could get our handicaps. Then things started to change and people stopped showing up. So many of the younger players turned into jerks and would leave without scoring or would cuff other players if they were gambling. Many of them started doing drugs or were selling drugs. It turned fun entertainment with friends into an environment that many of the more responsible players did not want to be around any longer. Throw in room owners that had egos that were way out of whack and Tony A. getting involved and you could see the end of a fun era in the USPPA. All the bogus bonuses and special treatment for certain players and presto - no more turnout.

 

[poolplayer110]

Forget about who won and who got second. Who beat Santos five in a row after being down 6 3 and beat Gomez 8 5 after being down 5 3. Oh yea that was me..lol...Too bad I lost to a 49 speed Tony Nelson who has been playing pool for twenty plus years and who hasn't been in the system for 15 years. Doesn't seem fair to Usppa members that play consistently that Tony Annigoni will just let anyone play. Fred Stanfield won the tournament as a 63 and he has been rated as high as 100 and he has one tournament played in the last 12 months. In the old days unestablished players were bumped a mandatory 30% in big events. I wonder why I waste my time with the handicrapper. lol

 

[bumpypickle]

i don't think it's all Tony's fault. people sand bag when they're being rated. you take that into account and the fact that a 80 speed in central cali might not be an 80 speed in the bay and you can see how their rating system might be slightly flawed.

It is Tony's fault. Tony knows damn well who is who and for him to allow people to play as a 60-70 that were at one time 90-100 speed players is really lame. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't everything Tony get involved in sort of turn to crap? How have the tournament numbers been since Tony got involved? Have they been better or worse? What about the turnout in Reno? It's sad, Reno used to be so fun.

 

[poolplayer110]

Well there's no more Reno tournament anyway I'm pretty sure.

 

[poolplayer2093]

Well there's no more Reno tournament anyway I'm pretty sure.

i think that's his point

 

[wahcheck]

Huh?

Well there's no more Reno tournament anyway I'm pretty sure.

Did I miss something? I hadn't heard that the Sands Regency USPPA and
Open 9-ball tournaments were done with.........If this is true, it is really sad......can somebody confirm this? I knew that the December tournament was eliminated, but I thought they still had one in June.........

 

[floppybear]

Forget about who won and who got second. Who beat Santos five in a row after being down 6 3 and beat Gomez 8 5 after being down 5 3. Oh yea that was me..lol...Too bad I lost to a 49 speed Tony Nelson who has been playing pool for twenty plus years and who hasn't been in the system for 15 years. Doesn't seem fair to Usppa members that play consistently that Tony Annigoni will just let anyone play. Fred Stanfield won the tournament as a 63 and he has been rated as high as 100 and he has one tournament played in the last 12 months. In the old days unestablished players were bumped a mandatory 30% in big events. I wonder why I waste my time with the handicrapper. lol

If that was the case I would blame the tournament director. He is there at the location. He should have checked Fred's average and how many tournament sheets he has. If he had only one tournament the tournament director is the person to blame. He should have not allowed any player who is not established play the tournament. If they want to play let them play at a minumum 100 rating. Why so high you ask? Back in the day they used to give you around a 60 rating to start the tournament...that's a joke. Let them start high (100 rating) then work their way down. It isn't fair to give someone a low rating (i.e. 60 rating) who plows through the field of established ranked players...I am not going to ramble on, but that happened to me about 15-20 years ago at a USPPA tournament at the Great Entertainer. I haven't played a USPPA tournment since.

 

[Tom In Cincy]

The Sands 9 Ball June event was canceled 2 years ago and there has been rumors that the December event is also being canceled this year. Where did you hear that this year's event is canceled?

The USPPA will probably look for a new venue for the Dec events. I sure hope so.

As far as the June event goes, there are plenty of players that loved the summer vacation playing pool in Reno. Just that there is a ton of summer events in Reno that make a small 200+ pool player tournament look even smaller.

Did I miss something? I hadn't heard that the Sands Regency USPPA and Open 9-ball tournaments were done with.........If this is true, it is really sad......can somebody confirm this? I knew that the December tournament was eliminated, but I thought they still had one in June.........

 

[oncue4u]

the state of the USPPA

I was extremely involved with the USPPA in the late 80's and 90's. Was on the board of directors along with founder Gene Stary. Ran local tournaments at different rooms along with the larger events like the recent one at California Billiards, was on the Reno staff at one time. When I was on the USPPA board, I would visit various tournaments throughout California and would actually play in them to see how the tournament director was running the tournament and to identify underrated players in the area. The important reason was why they were underrated. Were they just plain sandbaggers manipulating the system, was the tournament director involved (friends) and was anything being done to adjust these players so they wouldn't ruin the tournament for all of the honest regulars who played week after week without ever winning a tournament.
I recall running a local tournament where the two players involved were friends, laughing, joking and running up the innings. When I looked at the scoresheet, there were about 60 marks. Both were 80 speed players.
I took the scoresheet over to the two players, tore the scoresheet up and said that this will never be input into the system, so stop screwing around.
It sent a message to the other players that I would not tolerate sandbagging of any kind. My tournaments were clean, well run and appreciated by players out of the area. I would routinely adjust either the rating or the spot when I ran across an under rated player.
Some of the tournaments at that time were on this program and they flourished. Linda Silva and Gene Miller are seasoned and excellent tournament directors.
Unfortunately, when the big tournaments came up, or should I say the bigger money tournaments, there would always be a few that really stood out as underrated. I remember one California Billiards Reno Warmup, where
Gerardo Jamito came rated at a 65. He was raised 3 times during the tournament where he still took 1st place with a adjusted 125 rating. Its a shame that players were eliminated and had no chance to make money.
Now presently, I know of many of my old friends who are 30, 40, 50 points lower than they were previously. I suspect that the software has been changed to include all scoresheets, not just the highest to determine current ratings. In the past, when you entered into the system your initial rating was a weighted average. One could not go down so fast until you had enough matches.
Without the software controls and constant monitoring through TD's, its pretty much a free for all now.