Who lost the most?

[ShootingArts]

Over and over throughout this mess I have read how KT was the big loser in this deal. This simply isn't true if anyone is to believe that he has even a small fraction of the wealth he claims.

The IPT loses have not had the slightest impact on his daily life. Compare that to the dozens if not hundreds of pool players who have spent amounts of time and money being a part or even just attempting to be a part of the IPT that did negatively impact their lives and will impact many of their lives for some time to come. In real terms they were far bigger losers than Kevin Trudeau.

Now we come to perhaps the biggest individual loser of all, Deno Andrews. I have mixed feelings here because it was obvious early on that he intended to toe the company line regardless of truth or ethics. However Deno laid his reputation on the line for the IPT, something KT never had to lose. Indeed, Deno's participation legitimized the IPT for many. Looking at things in the short term and purely from a dollars standpoint Deno seems to have done OK. However I doubt that in hindsight he would have traded his reputation and standing in the pool community for the few dollars he made.

In the end however, pool lost the most. The way the established bodies in pool where scattered like leaves and had to regroup around the IPT, the spectacular rise and fall of the IPT, all of this reveals that pool is more of a sideshow than a serious sport that players should be making career decisions about. With apologies to all of the people who have put many years of work, effort, and heart into bettering the sport, the whole sorry IPT mess reveals that pool still isn't ready for prime time.

Hu

 

[steveharn]

Excellent post. He'll just move on to the next deal.

 

[Eydie Romano]

Now we come to perhaps the biggest individual loser of all, Deno Andrews. I have mixed feelings here because it was obvious early on that he intended to toe the company line regardless of truth or ethics. However Deno laid his reputation on the line for the IPT, something KT never had to lose. Indeed, Deno's participation legitimized the IPT for many. Looking at things in the short term and purely from a dollars standpoint Deno seems to have done OK. However I doubt that in hindsight he would have traded his reputation and standing in the pool community for the few dollars he made.
Hu

Hu, Great post!

Although, regarding Deno Andrews. He knew who he was getting in bed with when he agreed to be a part of this. He along with every other paid employee was given a CV of Kevin Trudeau's past history to chew on before they accepted the job with the IPT. So, apparently it was worth it to Deno to risk his name, reputation and possible legal ramifications in the future.

He has no one to blame but himself.

 

[JAM]

...With apologies to all of the people who have put many years of work, effort, and heart into bettering the sport, the whole sorry IPT mess reveals that pool still isn't ready for prime time.

Very nice post, Hu, one which is well worded.

I do have a differing opinion, though, on your last thought.

Pool is ready for prime time, but it will NEVER happen here in the States. The IPT was doomed before it got off the ground here in America.

There are some in the American pool culture who demean American professional players. Let them get old or lose a tournament or two, and the sucker-punching monkeys come out of the woodwork, unlike the Philippines where professional players, no matter what age, creed, religion, or color, are recognized for their skills set on a field of green.

Pool players in other countries are treated like the champions that they are. Pool players in the States are treated like plebians.

JAM

 

[cueball1950]

Very nice post, Hu, one which is well worded.

I do have a differing opinion, though, on your last thought.

Pool is ready for prime time, but it will NEVER happen here in the States. The IPT was doomed before it got off the ground here in America.

There are some in the American pool culture who demean American professional players. Let them get old or lose a tournament or two, and the sucker-punching monkeys come out of the woodwork, unlike the Philippines where professional players, no matter what age, creed, religion, or color, are recognized for their skills set on a field of green.

Pool players in other countries are treated like the champions that they are. Pool players in the States are treated like plebians.

JAM

Great post also JAM... ANd i have to agree with you on all of it. Pool in this country is basically dead. In some areas of this great country pol is doing ok and in others it is doing great. But i fear that for every pool hall that open 2 or 3 are closing. In order for it to survive, i feel that someone with the resources and knowledge, would have to step up and get behind it without just alot of talk. Someone to organize the players and such. I feel that if pool was to become an Olympic sport it would go a long way in making pool credible to the masses........oh well. enough rambling of my humble opinions...............mike


Oh, by the way. the veterans need to be taken care of and be given some respect for all of their accomplishments.......................mike

 

[markcorkum]

well here's another opinion. Since the t.v. ratings are good, doesn't that prove that pool IS ready for big-time? Who's saying that it's not? Some other sport? I don't know of any other sport where the players are so desperate for the sport's own prosperity. Pool is an excellent genre of sports embodying and combining different aspects of sporting activity and behaviour such as hand/eye coordination, hitting a target, physical and mental stamina, physics, trigonometry, strategy, consistent equipment and playing surface etc., etc. and is extremely entertaining to watch on t.v.- just as other sports are. It all depends on how it's packaged. In the case of the IPT, would it be possible that there was something other than pool that prevented more television coverage? Would it have anything to do with the front man's "controversial views"- especially on the health care and food industries who, according to the front man, buy the majority of commercial air-time on North American t.v.?

 

[justnum]

heres two cents take your opinion elsewhere.

What desperate players are you talking about?

Do you mean the promoters who are wishing to sell advertising space ?

 

[jimmyg]

Well, I guess the first thing to do is to decide upon a way of defining and measuring the term "the most". The first two means that entered my mind was money and intangibles; hope, self respect, pride, passion, etc.

As far as the money is concerned, with the exception of the top five finishers, I think that just about every player and qualifyer entrant, vendor and supplier lost money with their IPT involvement. The players put in huge amounts of their time and effort, paid their own expenses, many paid high qualifying entry fees, many gave up other valuable opportunities and almost all received much less than what they were entitled to and paid. The venues, according to the Details article, weren't paid. I'll also bet Diamond lost money, as well as the advertisers, and perhaps the production companies also went unpaid. I imagine that almost everyone connected with the IPT, except the IPT, got beat.

And KT, although there is no way of doing an accurate accounting of his closed books, with virtually no expenses being paid, and considering the various sources of income; the qualifier fees, video club membership fees, DVD and other product line sales, plus the large advertising value for his Natural Cures business, I'll bet that financially speaking, he actually made quite a bit of money, not as much, I'm sure, as he would have liked, but certainly much better than he claims.

Then you have to factor in all the intangibles, the personal things that are more important, and cannot even be measured in terms of dollars and cents. What price do you put on shattered dreams, lost trust, self doubt and that little chunk of your heart that was ripped out and doesn't seem as though it will ever get repaired? I don't think that there is a question that the players were the biggest losers in this department. And when I say the players, I mean the entire sport, because the players are the sport. I doubt whether these things ever entered into KT's equation.

Who "lost" more? No doubt in my mind, at every level, it was the players. I don't think that KT lost a thing, he just didn't make as much as he anticipated and would have liked. IMO

Jim

 

[justnum]

{Lawyers} {Managers}
Vendors -> { KT } <- Players
{Bankers} { Journalists }

From the looks of it Id say journalists took a shot.

Whos next in line?

 

[ShootingArts]

Thanks for all of the replies

Thanks for all of the replies! We actually touched on several different issues but I think that they are all parts of the problem that add up to pool not being ready for the big time, tournaments being regular prime time events, in the US or on the worldwide stage.

The bottom line seems to be that pool doesn't have the mass appeal to attract general corporate dollars. When we see auto companies and laundry soaps competing to sponsor tours and events or get their commercial aired during an event, then we will have the kind of dollars in pool so that at least the top few hundred professional players in the US can earn a decent living competing.

Why I don't know but there seems to be a huge gap between occasional bangers and those who pursue excellence in pool. The half-dozen times a year golfer will watch major golf events on TV, likewise with tennis. However it seems that only a small hardcore percentage of people who are somewhat obsessed with the game will make an effort to watch pool on TV. From my experience the people who shoot pool mostly to be doing something while drinking and socializing don't make any effort to watch it on TV. Indeed, horse racing and other sports on the televisions usually have more watchers than pool competitions, even in the pool halls.

We have to excite the interest of the general public or at least the casual players to be successful. I don't know if that takes a new approach, a new game, a new table, or what it would take. Somehow we need to show real drama and excitement that more people can see in television events to attract legitimate outside dollars.

Hu

 

[macguy]

Deno the loser, think again

Over and over throughout this mess I have read how KT was the big loser in this deal. This simply isn't true if anyone is to believe that he has even a small fraction of the wealth he claims.

The IPT loses have not had the slightest impact on his daily life. Compare that to the dozens if not hundreds of pool players who have spent amounts of time and money being a part or even just attempting to be a part of the IPT that did negatively impact their lives and will impact many of their lives for some time to come. In real terms they were far bigger losers than Kevin Trudeau.

Now we come to perhaps the biggest individual loser of all, Deno Andrews. I have mixed feelings here because it was obvious early on that he intended to toe the company line regardless of truth or ethics. However Deno laid his reputation on the line for the IPT, something KT never had to lose. Indeed, Deno's participation legitimized the IPT for many. Looking at things in the short term and purely from a dollars standpoint Deno seems to have done OK. However I doubt that in hindsight he would have traded his reputation and standing in the pool community for the few dollars he made.

In the end however, pool lost the most. The way the established bodies in pool where scattered like leaves and had to regroup around the IPT, the spectacular rise and fall of the IPT, all of this reveals that pool is more of a sideshow than a serious sport that players should be making career decisions about. With apologies to all of the people who have put many years of work, effort, and heart into bettering the sport, the whole sorry IPT mess reveals that pool still isn't ready for prime time.

Hu

I would not feel sorry for Deno. KT's new weight loss book is out now and I just saw his newest commercial. He claims to have weighed over 300 pounds and lost all the weight on his new secret diet. He says the food industry has known about the secret diet but has done the best they could to suppress the information because they want to keep selling people food. If you see it on watch it, you will have a good laugh.

The commercial is so ridiculous even the most desperate person is not going for this. I like Kevin's new Trump comb-over. He looks awful in the commercial like he is sick or something. Back to Deno. I suspect Deno has been completely corrupted by the money and is a part of KT organization in general and now working with the new book. I suspect the IPT is completely off both of their radar's, they are on to other money making stuff.

I would bet the IPT is never even a topic of conversation around the office these days anymore. I am also sure Deno is making so much cash, he could care less what a bunch of broke pool players think of him, money has a way of doing that.

 

[sjm]

I think that, at least in one respect, Mike Sigel lost the most. He was arguably the most respected and revered player of his generation, Irving Crane's rackboy who went on to become one of the game's most legendary and mythical figures. I was always a big fan of his once upon a time.

Now, after his leadership role in what is looking like pool's biggest ever swindle, few will think of his play when they see him. He has become the Pete Rose of pool, sadly defined by his acts of indelicacy rather than by his extraordinary professional credentials.

One of life's most accepted truths is that you are judged by the company you keep. Mike kept the company of KT and is doomed to be forever associated with a man who has, whether fairly or unfairly, become a symbol of dishonesty in pool.

This just isn't how I wanted to remember Mike, but he has reinvented himself for the worse, and has squandered much of the goodwill he had in the pool community.

 

[cueman]

I think that, at least in one respect, Mike Sigel lost the most. He was arguably the most respected and revered player of his generation, Irving Crane's rackboy who went on to become one of the game's most legendary and mythical figures. I was always a big fan of his once upon a time.

Now, after his leadership role in what is looking like pool's biggest ever swindle, few will think of his play when they see him. He has become the Pete Rose of pool, sadly defined by his acts of indelicacy rather than by his extraordinary professional credentials.

One of life's most accepted truths is that you are judged by the company you keep. Mike kept the company of KT and is doomed to be forever associated with a man who has, whether fairly or unfairly, become a symbol of dishonesty in pool.

This just isn't how I wanted to remember Mike, but he has reinvented himself for the worse, and has squandered much of the goodwill he had in the pool community.

You might be right. He was known as Capitan Hook. KT reinvented him as The Mouth. Hoping he would generate some of the Minnesota Fats type of hype and entertainment. But people counted MF as down and out and he kept coming on and made more $$ than almost all the rest. He made the most after his prime. So may Mike.

 

[ironman]

I think that, at least in one respect, Mike Sigel lost the most. He was arguably the most respected and revered player of his generation, Irving Crane's rackboy who went on to become one of the game's most legendary and mythical figures. I was always a big fan of his once upon a time.

Now, after his leadership role in what is looking like pool's biggest ever swindle, few will think of his play when they see him. He has become the Pete Rose of pool, sadly defined by his acts of indelicacy rather than by his extraordinary professional credentials.

One of life's most accepted truths is that you are judged by the company you keep. Mike kept the company of KT and is doomed to be forever associated with a man who has, whether fairly or unfairly, become a symbol of dishonesty in pool.

This just isn't how I wanted to remember Mike, but he has reinvented himself for the worse, and has squandered much of the goodwill he had in the pool community.

Well stated.

He became a Whore.

 

[justnum]

a whore that got paid.

 

[jimmyg]

a whore that got paid.

Whore that gets paid = prostitute.

Jim

 

[justnum]

I was going to say benefactor.

I am unsure of the meaning "prostitute."

 

[gwvavases]

I think that, at least in one respect, Mike Sigel lost the most. He was arguably the most respected and revered player of his generation, Irving Crane's rackboy who went on to become one of the game's most legendary and mythical figures. I was always a big fan of his once upon a time.

Now, after his leadership role in what is looking like pool's biggest ever swindle, few will think of his play when they see him. He has become the Pete Rose of pool, sadly defined by his acts of indelicacy rather than by his extraordinary professional credentials.

One of life's most accepted truths is that you are judged by the company you keep. Mike kept the company of KT and is doomed to be forever associated with a man who has, whether fairly or unfairly, become a symbol of dishonesty in pool.

This just isn't how I wanted to remember Mike, but he has reinvented himself for the worse, and has squandered much of the goodwill he had in the pool community.

I bought a Mike Sigel cue (about $100) just before the IPT was first announced. I only use it as a break cue. Every time I do, I cringe that I put a few dollars in Mike Sigel's pocket. Maybe if I think about ramming it up his butt every time I break, I'll feel better.

KT was the kingpin of the IPT, but I think Mike Sigel really screwed his own community with his involvement. Nothing worse, in my opinion. I believe it was his involvement that gave players confidence in shyster KT's scheme.