What cue maker was the first to make Titlist conversions?
Who made the first Titlist conversions?
- Thread starter bigshooter
- Start date
bigshooter said:
Rambow....
hangemhigh said:
When was that?
I believe it was probably Herman Rambow. 60 years ago he was about the only cue maker out there.
I guess I should have known that.
bigshooter said:
Nobody knows everything. If you can get your hands on a copy
of the billiard encyc... there is an excellent write up of Herman -
several pages including pictures.
An interesting question might be, why has their developed such
an interest in Titlist/Hoppe and conversaitions of them?
15 years ago you could buy a Hoppe for $100 and a Titlist for
half that, or less. Often a lot less.
Dale
bigshooter said:
Your question is missing some information, I will try to help fill in the Gap's. Many cues people see converted at first glance appear to be Titlist Conversions, however, they are actually Brunswick 26 1/2 Conversions. The Brunswick 26 1/2 was the first cue produced by Brunswick with Veneered Points, and it was made beginning around 1914 or 1915. These cues were produced until approximately 1940, when the Name Willie Hoppe Titlist was added above the cues points. There are also other differences that identifies the Brunswick 26 1/2 from the Titlist. These include the length of the points, the location of the weight stamp and how it is applied, the type of Leather Wrap used and the location of the pin for jointed cues, along with the joint collar.
So when you ask your question you need to understand the information listed above. While Herman Rambo would logically be considered to be the first one to convert one of these cues, it will be impossible to say for certain. From the turn of the Century till his death Herman was the go to man for Customized cues in the Midwest. However, on the West coast there was another cue maker who started making cues in the 1908 ( Editied from 1930) and his name was Harvey Martin. Now Harvey while not as well known did make some great cues including conversion cues. I have seen a Brunswick 26 1/2 that was converted by Harvey in the early 1930's. The cue was Ebony into Maple with a Leather wrap and two shafts.
Take Care
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manwon said:
"It was Herman who perfected the jointed cue by inserting a countersunk screw in the recessed butt end, making an extra-sturdy connection"
Herman was also issued a patent for this in late 1925.
hangemhigh said:
You are certainly right Tommy, and the Patent was awarded for the Hub Cue. However, the patent had nothing to do with the Joint, the Patent was for a new Balancing system at the cues A-joint where weight could be added or taken away to change the balance of the cue.
But, the question that was asked by the individual who started the thread was who made the first Titlist Conversion cue.
Take care Tommy
manwon said:
Rambow is credited with the invention of the piloted joint as well. Working at Brunswick, where Titlists were made, and having about a 20 year head start building cues on Martin, is why he is universally accepted as the first to convert a Titlist.
Jerry Forsyth
Well-known member
pdcue said:
In 1964 I bought a brand new Willie Hoppe for $18 (that was the retail price) from Mr. and Mrs. Cueball in Greensboro, NC. Mr & Mrs Cueball was a family poolroom opened by Brunswick. I played Mosconi there when he opened the place. (Uh, actually, I racked for him. Think I got two shots.)
hangemhigh said:
Tommy he is not known for inventing the Titlist cue. The first Veneered Brunswick cues were the 26 1/2 prodcution started around 1914, the Titlist did not start production until 1940 and jointed cues go back farther in time than Rambo was working at Brunswick. Harvey Martin built his first cue around 5 years after Rambo built his, NOT 20 years.
Show me a documented Rambo Titlist cue built before 1939, I will show you a Brunswick 26 1/2.
Take care Tommy
manwon said:
He is not credited with inventing the Titlist, just for doing the first conversion, like I said in my answer to the OP's question. Harvey Martin started making cues in the early 20's. Rambow started at Brunswick in 1894, when he was 14. Although he did not start as a cue maker, it is safe to assume he was learning the ropes well before Martin even thought of making a cue. There is at least a 20 year gap from the time he started working at Brunswick until Harvey Martin was known to produce his first cue. He was making cues before the Titlist line was introduced, so regardless of what model was converted, it was converted. No one doubts he had access to the first Titlists, and would have been the first to convert one as well.
Finally, to add to the consensus that Rambow was the first to convert a Titlist, not Martin, I direct your attention to this site and the information provided.
http://www.3cushion.com/On Line Collection/Cues/prestorambow.htm
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hangemhigh said:
Harvey martin was born in 1889 and made his first cue at age 19 in Seattle Washington. So we are saying that he built his first cue in 1908, Herman was still working on the Cue assemble line during that time frame. The main point is there is no documented proof who made the first conversion, it could be some one completely different than mentioned.
Take care
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manwon said:
Take time to revisit my last post as I added some information that should convince you as to the answer of the OP's question, which was who made the first Titlist conversion. Not Martin, Rambow.
bigshooter said:
I would like to point out there are technically two types of Titlist based cues, true conversions and cues made from Titlist "blanks" which were sold by Brunswick. Here is a page showing what the unfinished "blank" cues looked like.
http://palmercollector.com/Titlist.html
Rambow worked with both blanks and conversions. Proof is that many of the conversions still have a weight stamp on them, but blanks do not. Paradise, Balabushka, Palmer, Gina, more or less in that order, made conversions, where house cues were made into two piece customs.
Later on, Brunswick supplied "blanks" to some cue makers. Palmer was one, I believe Gina was another. The term "conversion" was invented at some later date - I don't know when but probably in the 1980's. I believe that all of Balabushka and Paradise based Titlists were conversions rather than blank supplied cues.
Chris
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Interesting to find that out about Harvey Martin, that he was making cues so early on.
I know he sold his operation to Tad in the sixties, probably towards the end of his life.
Tad was located just down the street from where I played in Anaheim, and he made (and still does) a hell of a cue.
I know he sold his operation to Tad in the sixties, probably towards the end of his life.
Tad was located just down the street from where I played in Anaheim, and he made (and still does) a hell of a cue.
TATE said:
Tate, the Titlist made for Presto by Rambow has the Willie Hoppe brand. I can't see a weight stamp but it does have a Brunswick label. Would Titlist blanks have the Hoppe stamp and not the weight stamp? I think the cue offers conclusive proof as to who converted the first Titlist blank. Also on the site there is a cue sans veneers that was converted by Rambow. Is there any way to date this cue, maybe before the 26 1/2 was produced?
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hangemhigh said:
Tommy this is directly from the site in your link:
As the story goes, this cue stick was made around 1940, and delivered before the Titlist blank hit the open market. Supposedly the blank was from the prototype batch and as you can see by the basewood (oak) and the very sharp points at the bottom of the points, it is not a typical Titlist.
When anything starts with the above underlined in the first paragraph. Then they go on to say the underlined in the second paragraph, it becomes very obvious they have no idea what they are talking about.
However Tommy, it is a nice story and I here similar stories every other day from people bring things into my pool room, but like all stories I am certainly there is a percentage of fact in it.
The cue pictured certainly is a Titlist, and yes it has an early label, but prototype it certainly is not. In fact there were likely thousands made just like it with the same label, that were never converted like the pictured cue.
Oh and by the way, the so called prototype for the Titlist was the Brunswick 26 1/2. The early 26 1/2 cues had different veneer colors, and the over all points were shorter. The later 26 1/2 cues 1937 to 1940 went through a series of veneer color changes ending with the color of Titlist veneers and the points were longer.
I am still not convinced Tommy, but who cares anyway!!!!!
Take care
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hangemhigh said:
Tommy, there were no Veneered point cues made by Brunswick before the 26 1/2, and all cues made later are nothing but continuations of that design.
The only real referance material on this subject out there are Brunswick Catalogs. There is not a more confused subject than the history of Brunswick, and the history of the cues they made.
Take Care